Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! discussion

From what I can gather the 1st mention of it is in the Chretien de Troyes, and it's a dish (graal) that's not magical but holy purely due to it being used to carry the host.
Any earlier mention of it?

No, Chrétien de Troyes invents it, although there are some interesting theories that it comes out of old Celtic tales -- a mistranslation of a horn mentioned in the Mabinogion, able to bring a plentiful feast.

There's a theory that the grail is a sort of consolation for the failure of the crusades -- "we don't need the Holy Land, we've got the best relic of them all!" That might just be my lecturer's theory, he's keen on the crusades. But it's definitely interesting and seems to fit in.

So who is first to give the grail the magical power?
Percy in the Chretien de Troyes isn't really looking for the grail (or the lance) he just has to go back and ask a question doesn't he? And the grail is really just a posh plate in it.
How does it get from that to the uber-relic it becomes? How does it get all tied up with the Joseph of Arimathea/Glastonbury thing?
And here's a thought: In Chretien its a plate, but not translated as that, then it becomes a cup? OK, I know a graal isn't exactly a plate, but it's certainly more plate than cup.

The focus is on the question, yes. And it's Gawain who searches for the lance.

It's Robert de Boron who does that, really. He's the one who links it all up with Christianity.

The problem with the word graal is that actually, Chretien invented it. We know it's a dish because of the way he describes it, but the word graal didn't exist before, or if it did, we have no record.

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/...
Remember reading this a while back in a magazine...and behold the glory of google and the interweb!
So Chretien's is in the Louvre...maybe.

Ahaha, it's beautiful the way people treat Robert de Boron's work as actually part of the Christian canon.

Nikki wrote: "Ahaha, it's beautiful the way people treat Robert de Boron's work as actually part of the Christian canon."

Aye, in years to come they'll say the same about Dan Brown, but interesting Hx of the dish and it does look like the one CdT describes.

There is one way that could be true, of course: if Chrétien based his description of the graal on that dish.

Aye, the article notes that he moved in the courtly circles that the dish was used in. It would have stood out, so likely an influence at least. In CdT the host seems to be more important than the grail, and the serving dish would have to be worthy of the cargo it carried, but even that seems to take a backseat to the question of WHO the grail serves.

There's even the thought that in Chrétien, perhaps the grail doesn't matter at all -- it's only a quest, a vehicle for Perceval's development, just in the same way that the fountain is in The Knight with the Lion for Yvain. People all wonder what he would have revealed had he finished it -- he may not have intended to reveal anything else at all about the grail.

Certainly works as a great MacGuffin.
That's common in all the questing tales isn't it? The quest is the important thing not the attainment of the goal. The very idea of errantry, "Let us go and adveture!" The grail (or the questing beast and those stinky fewmets) merely add focus.
The Maltese Falcon is a great example of the MacGuffin in pulp fiction.

Nikki wrote: "No, Chrétien de Troyes invents it, although there are some interesting theories that it comes out of old Celtic tales -- a mistranslation of a horn mentioned in the Mabinogion, able to bring a plen..."

Hi, Nikki

Actually, Chetian "reinvents" the Grail. The etymology goes back to the Gothic Bible, then changes as it moves forward. The original grail was used on the Eurasian steppes, pricipally by tribes associated with the "Alani," but the name first shows up historically through the Goths who were influenced by the Alans. Here you go:

dails-- Gothic verb, the sharing of portions of something greater.

gradailis-- Old French noun, a vessel holding many portions.

graal-- Old German noun, a vessel containing multiple portions.

grail-- Middle English noun, a book containing multiple subjects (prayers, dailies, hymns).

The oldest known grails were cups (usually wooden) with animal figure handles. (The most common animal was the bear.) The cups were round-bottomed, so they had to be passed from one person to another. The grail liquid was "hauma" in Alanic, "soma" in Indic, a mixture of ephedra and cannibus perhaps in mare's milk. The potion was believed to "give strength in weakness, health in infirmity, and youth inn old age." This is the original and basic (non-Christian) premise of the grail. We see this in the tale of Amfortas and his father Titural.

Best,
A.J.

Interesting, I've never heard that theory -- do you have any books you'd suggest that describe it? I never came across it during my research during my BA, but it sounds quite plausible from what you've said (but I'd be interested to see an explanation of how something from the Gothic Bible came into the work of a French writer). I don't recall ever reading the word "grail" in Middle English, do you know the source for that? I'd be interested to know what texts it comes up in (certainly not the Middle English Perceval!). I don't think my dissertation supervisor can ever have heard of this theory, as he definitely believes that Chrétien invented the grail entirely.

Chrétien's grail isn't strictly Christian either -- it's carried by a woman, and women couldn't serve Mass, so the part which explicitly Christianises it is sometimes considered to be an interpolation... Which seems to be in support of that theory: if Chrétien heard of the potion which would "give strength in weakness", etc, he might easily have used it as his plot device.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm writing my Master's dissertation on King Arthur (and probably my PhD thesis too).

It seems probable that Chretien heard grail stories from his neighbors in the area of Orleans, where a large portion of Alans had settled. Or maybe from the Taifali or descendants of the Goths. At one time much of southern France was controlled by the Goths, a kingdom that lasted til 810.

I posted a photo (of an archaeological drawing) of the grail cups and a cauldron in the Arthuriana photo section. Click on it for more detail. There are no books on this origin yet, but maybe I'll write one. This ceremony, in its modern form (not the eucharest) can be seen in the Iranian film, "Baran." The people who share small portions of something greater (milk warmed in a cauldron) in the scene are Afgani refugees.

The word "grail" is in the original Webster's Dictionary, first edition, 1859. The root, dails, is in the Gothic bible as written by Bishop Ulfilas around AD 360. Gradailis is accurate, maybe still extant in French dictionaries. Worcester's English Dictionary (1860) gives two versions. 1) Fr. grele, hail. Small particles of any kind. 2) Low Latin. graduale, gradale. A book of hymns and prayers of the Roman church. The etymology is correct, and the oldest version harks back to the Goths, a steppe culture.

The ceremony is found in the Indic Vedas, and of course, the Indus originally came from the steppe. Same with the Afgani.

Interesting! Thank you.

("Grail" does not appear to exist in Middle English -- I quickly searched both the Middle English dictionary and the Middle English resources I know of, and there's no use of that word. Hmmm.)

Thanks for the info. This is an area I've not looked at before.
This means even more to be stacked on the "to read" mountain.
AJ...you're like feckin' Merlin!

Nikki wrote: "Interesting! Thank you.

("Grail" does not appear to exist in Middle English -- I quickly searched both the Middle English dictionary and the Middle English resources I know of, and there's no use ..."

Sorry for the wrong English. But it's certainly attested in Vulgar Latin (see Worcester)and in French. The etymology goes straight back to grele, gradailis, and dails. In any case, it's an old word, both as a verb and noun, and first shows up in Gothic. But most likely it was originally in Alanic or Northeastern Iranian, the languages of the Alans, Wusun, Massagetae, and Saka. Probably in Sanskrit, too. And old Indo-European word and concept.

The original grail cups had bear-shaped handles, not all but most. I posted examples in the Arthuriana Photo section, so anyone can click on them. The bear-- "artos" or "artur"-- was "protector of the people," not just in Alanic and Gothic, but also in Celtic-Britonic.

The Equites Honorianii Taifali Seniors had mirrored bears on their shields, one of the last 5 Roman units sent into Britain (Notitia Dignitatum, c. 398). I'll add another photo of the bear, an Alanic shield boss found on the steppe below the Urals. So the bear had a cultural role beyond its use as grail handles.

I would like to comment on this but I have too much to suit this format here. But if it's OK to post a link to an article that will post tomorrow morning (Sunday) giving my take, or rather the traditions surrounding the Chalice and Grail and King Arthur. The link is http://minnie-apolis.blogspot.com/201...
The traditions state that not only was Arthur descended from Joseph of Arimathea, but so was Galahad, and indeed all the other knights of the Round Table. And that the Chalice went from Glastonbury to Wales. . .

Laura wrote: "The traditions state..."

Which traditions?
As you can no doubt see from many posts on this group there are many traditions and few agree on anything but the basics.

None of the traditions linking Joseph of Arimathea, Arthur and the grail predate Robert de Boron in the 12th century, so far as I know...

Nikki wrote: "None of the traditions linking Joseph of Arimathea, Arthur and the grail predate Robert de Boron in the 12th century, so far as I know..."

I agree with Niki. The so-called "tradition" linking "Arthur" to Joseph of Arimathea is a wild supposition by modern authors. First, the chances of there being a historical "Arthur" are slim. And second, linking a Briton to a biblical character is downright silly. We don't need any more Dan Browns.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "So who is first to give the grail the magical power?
Percy in the Chretien de Troyes isn't really looking for the grail (or the lance) he just has to go back and ask a question doesn't he? And the ..."


I'm not quite sure of it, but I thought was Wolfram Von Eschenbach who gives magical attributes to the grail, as far as I know he makes his Pasifal more "mistic"