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Are Mormons Christians?
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One argument I've heard is, "Well, the name of our church is really "The Jesus Christ Church of Latter Day Saints", so we MUST be Christian! The name is in the title!"To this I can only say, "What's in a name?"
Seriously, you can call your chihuahua a "killer guard dog", but that ain't going to keep the burglars out. Names mean nothing; it is the substance we are talking about...
I would say that Mormons are Christians the way Christians are Jews.But really, who cares? What difference does it make. If they're Christians, there beliefs differ wildly from many other Christians -- which is true of all Christians -- and at the end of the day their beliefs will prove to be true or (more likely) not.
Xox wrote: "The most direct answer is, yes, Mormons are Christians."Errr.... care to reply to my points that show it isn't? (christianity is monotheist, Mormonism is polytheist; early Mormon leaders statements about christianity etc...) OR can we now just state things with no proof? (in which case, I am rich and have a great ass).
Dan: Granted, every branch of christianity has subtle procedural differences: Baptists dunk, Presbyterians sprinkle, but it seems to me that, as you said, the major differences moves them into a new category, like Christians and Jews.
Actually, Mormons have a different bible. The book of Mormon. And a different god: Elohim.They latch on to Christianity to give themselves some sort of mainstream credibility.
And they run Utah.
So, just to summarize your argument: All theists are the same because they all suck.
Mormons do believe in the bible, as well as the Book of Mormon.
My thesis is that Mormonism isn't christianity. That it's not the "christian shit god", even though they claim it is to preserve face.They WANT to have "more in common", but the funny thing is that most Mormons don't actually know much about early Mormonism....
Let's not forget Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism....I think you have a good broad point: religion is about division, control, political power and, ultimately, death.
I'm just looking at the finer points. Splitting hairs.
Well, I prefer to specify exactly what the illogical points are (horses in pre-Columbian America, the Book of Abraham being an obvious fraud, etc), but to each their own.
And Mormons had the doctrine of "blood atonement". Basically, if you left Mormonism, you got killed.
Mod
Video about blood atonement.Sermon by Brigham Young published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856:
"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.
"I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them....
"And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.
"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man."
Sermon by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857:
"Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?'
"All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant....
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance... if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil... I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them....
"This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it....if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind."
It is based on Alma 42:19; see also 2 Nephi 9:35; Alma 27:6-9
I believe that Mormons are not and should not be considered as Christians... They preach another doctrine.... It has serious flaws in the Book of Mormon... Just to name just one that is very important is where Jesus was born... In alma I believe it said Jesus was born in Jerusalem... But in the bible it clearly says Jesus was born in Bethlehem...
Here are several examples:
1. God was once a man who lives on another planet (Near a star called Kolob).
Mormons believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. Mormons worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. Mormons believe that they will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and they too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking: "After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
Book of Abraham 3: 3-4, 9, 16
9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one aplanet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God...
2. We are co-eternal with God.
They believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3. The origin of Jesus Christ.
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. They believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4. Saving dead ancestors.
Mormons believe they have temples where they get the handshakes and passwords that allow them to become gods. They also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
5. Adam is God.
Brigham Young's taught the Adam-God Doctrine, that "Adam is our Father in Heaven". This doctrine was also taught and believed by Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Hosea Stout, William Clayton and others. Spencer Kimball pronounced this a false doctrine in October 1976.
References: Journal of Discourse Vol. 1, pg. 50-51; Vol. 2, pg. 6, 143; Vol. 3, pg. 319; Vol. 4, pg. 271; Vol. 5, pg. 331; vol. 6, pg. 275,285; vol. 8, pg. 53, 208; vol. 12, pg. 97.
6. LDS leaders have taught that Jesus is a polygamist.
"Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives and that he begat children."
Reference: Apostle Orson Hyde, J of D vol. 2, pg. 80 and 84. Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 172 and the Second Counselor to Brigham Young, Jedadiah Grant, Journal of Discourses., Vol. 1, pg. 346.
7. That salvation is not through accepting Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith.
[There is:] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are"
- Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289
"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith:]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith:]"
- Prophet George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God.. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154
8. That other churches are not Christian.
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, The Seer, p. 255
"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"
- George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p.324
"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171
"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."
- John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225
"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (p. 266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men."
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282
"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13
"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foudation of this (Mormon) church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..."
- Supposedly Jesus Christ Himself, Doctrine and Covenants 1:30
9. They are polytheistic (believing in many gods, not one).
With these major differences at the very root of Mormonism, should this book still be considered a Christian text? And should Mormoninsm be considered a form of Christianity?