The History Book Club discussion

This is a buddy read set up by request.

by Steven Pressfield

Start Date will be February 28, 2011 (or some time during that week) and ending on March 27, 2011. We always start on Mondays so this will work out well.

Remember this is a spoiler thread and anything can be discussed in any order unless you determine how you will read this book and your timeline for discussion of different chapters. We allow each buddy read leader to set things up at their own pace.

Remember, if you cite any other book except for the discussion book for which this thread is named you must do full citations of both the book and the authors.

Good luck and have fun.

Bentley

Hello everyone.
I will be starting to read this book on the 1st of March. I know that I have one other person with me on this buddy read so far (that person is Tasha), but I extend an invitation to all those who would like to read this book with me.

RE: SPOILERS
Please mark all your spoilers in this manner;

State a Chapter and page if you can.
EG: Chapter 24, page 154
Or say Up to Chapter *___ (*insert chapter number) if your comment is more broad and not from a single chapter.

Examples of spoiler;
Chapter 24 pg 367
(view spoiler)[then you put your spoiler into the enclosed arrow bracketing and the spoiler is hidden (hide spoiler)]

To do this kind of spoiler use these steps:

Step 1. enclose the word spoiler in forward and back arrows; < >

Step 2. write your spoiler in

Step 3. enclose the word /spoiler in arrows as above, BUT NOTE the forward slash in front of the word. You must put that forward slash in.

If you don't want to use this feature, then can you please mark spoilers with asterisks like this below example;

****SPOILER CHAPTER 24 PG 367**********************
And then type in your comments and finish with an asterisk line
****************************************************

"Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie." reads an ancient stone at Thermopylae in northern Greece, the site of one of the world's greatest battles for freedom. Here, in 480 BCE, on a narrow mountain pass above the crystalline Aegean, 300 Spartan knights & allies faced the massive forces of Xerxes, King of Persia.
From the start, there was no question but that the Spartans would perish. In Gates of Fire, however, Steven Pressfield makes their courageous defence--& eventual extinction-- unbearably suspenseful.
In the tradition of Mary Renault, this historical novel unfolds in flashback. Xeo, the sole Spartan survivor of Thermopylae, has been captured by the Persians & Xerxes himself presses his young captive to reveal how his tiny cohort kept more than 100,000 Persians at bay for a week. Xeo, however, begins at the beginning, when his childhood home in northern Greece was overrun & he escaped to Sparta. There he's drafted into the elite Spartan guard & rigorously schooled in the art of war--an education brutal enough to destroy half the students, but (oddly enough) not without humor: "The more miserable the conditions, the more convulsing the jokes became, or at least that's how it seems," Xeo recalls.
His companions-in-arms are Alexandros, a gentle boy who turns out to be the most courageous of all, & Rooster, an angry, half-Messenian youth.

Pressfield's descriptions of war are breathtaking in their immediacy. They're also meticulously assembled out of physical detail & crisp, uncluttered metaphor:

"The forerank of the enemy collapsed immediately as the 1st shock hit it; the body-length shields seemed to implode rearward, their anchoring spikes rooted slinging from the earth like tent pins in a gale. The forerank archers were literally bowled off their feet, their wall-like shields caving in upon them like fortress redoubts under the assault of the ram. The valor of the individual Medes was beyond question, but their light hacking blades were harmless as toys; against the massed wall of Spartan armor, they might as well have been defending themselves with reeds or fennel stalks." Alas, even this human barrier was bound to collapse, as we knew all along it would. "War is work, not mystery," Xeo laments.

But Pressfield's epic seems to make the opposite argument: courage on this scale is not merely inspiring but ultimately mysterious.--Marianne Painter

by

ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
From the Author's Goodreads Profile;


I was born in Port of Spain, Trinidad, in 1943 to a Navy father and mother.

I graduated from Duke University in 1965.

In January of 1966, when I was on the bus leaving Parris Island as a freshly-minted Marine, I looked back and thought there was at least one good thing about this departure. "No matter what happens to me for the rest of my life, no one can ever send me back to this freakin' place again."

Forty years later, to my surprise and gratification, I am far more closely bound to the young men of the Marine Corps and to all other dirt-eating, ground-pounding outfits than I could ever have imagined.

GATES OF FIRE is one reason. Dog-eared paperbacks of this tale of the ancient Spartans have circulated throughout platoons of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan since the first days of the invasions. E-mails come in by hundreds. GATES OF FIRE is on the Commandant of the Marine Corps' Reading list. It is taught at West Point and Annapolis and at the Marine Corps Basic School at Quantico. TIDES OF WAR is on the curriculum of the Naval War College.

From 2nd Battalion/6th Marines, which calls itself "the Spartans," to ODA 316 of the Special Forces, whose forearms are tattooed with the lambda of Lakedaemon, today's young warriors find a bond to their ancient precursors in the historical narratives of these novels.

My struggles to earn a living as a writer (it took seventeen years to get the first paycheck) are detailed in my 2002 book, THE WAR OF ART.

I have worked as an advertising copywriter, schoolteacher, tractor-trailer driver, bartender, oilfield roustabout and attendant in a mental hospital. I have picked fruit in Washington state and written screenplays in Tinseltown.

With the publication of THE LEGEND OF BAGGER VANCE in 1995, I became a writer of books once and for all.

My writing philosophy is, not surprisingly, a kind of warrior code — internal rather than external — in which the enemy is identified as those forms of self-sabotage that I have labeled "Resistance" with a capital R (in THE WAR OF ART) and the technique for combatting these foes can be described as "turning pro."

I believe in previous lives.

I believe in the Muse.

I believe that books and music exist before they are written and that they are propelled into material being by their own imperative to be born, via the offices of those willing servants of discipline, imagination and inspiration, whom we call artists. My conception of the artist's role is a combination of reverence for the unknowable nature of "where it all comes from" and a no-nonsense, blue-collar demystification of the process by which this mystery is approached. In other words, a paradox.

There's a recurring character in my books named Telamon, a mercenary of ancient days. Telamon doesn't say much. He rarely gets hurt or wounded. And he never seems to age. His view of the profession of arms is a lot like my conception of art and the artist:

"It is one thing to study war, and another to live the warrior's life."

by Steven Pressfield
by Steven Pressfield
by Steven Pressfield
For more on Steven Pressfield's books here is his website;
http://www.stevenpressfield.com/
*NB: Those who like to read of WW2 may also be interested in his book Killing Rommel.
by Steven Pressfield

But, for now...let's go kick some Persian butt. :-)

Yep, I'm in on this read too! Waiting on my copy from the library. Looking forward to another fun discussion. :)

That makes two of us now. :-) Anyone else want to join us?

Im in

His bio is very interesting. It makes me more interested in reading the book now...Terri...;) thanks for posting it.

I got it from the library today so I am ready to start!

Michael, you are a man of many words. Welcome aboard. :-)
_____________________________________________________

Tasha, Don't you go jumping the gun now you have it. :-) 28th of Feb or 1st of March start.
I can't wait to start it. I have been trying to fit this book in for 6 months.


The one thing that may make you, and others who aren't used to this sort of book, stumble at first will be the names.

Not only the pronunciation, but the amount of strange and unfamiliar names.
There are bound to be a few chapters at the start with lots of unfamiliar place names and characters names. Hang in there. As with most historical fiction, it can become confusing, but eventually it comes together or you learn to live with it.

By the way, I am only guessing about the many names. I haven't sneaked in a few pages at all. I am stuck trying to finish Lords of the Bow by 28th Feb.
by Conn Iggulden

I may try to pop in and participate now and again.

That would be terrific, Bentley. The more people on the buddy read, the more interesting the discussion. :-)

Today is the day for me. I am going to start Gates of Fire around lunchtime here (which will be approx midnight in the U.S).

I have my fingers crossed that we will all enjoy this read. :-)
Gates of Fire has had a lot of positive wraps and I hope they are right.

I am halfway through Chapter 5 and I am well and truly hooked.
In fact, I am so hooked that I read 65 pages in no time flat, then had to drag myself away because I had household chores to do, and now I cannot WAIT to get back into it at bedtime tonight. I love a book that can grab me like this from the start.

Well, I say from 'the start', but I have to admit that up until Chapter 3 I was a bit worried. It read quite complicated and I didn't know if I would like a book that read start to finish in that manner.
But then, Chapter 3 came and all that was forgotten.

Chapter 4;
(view spoiler)[
I have been enthralled by the horrible fate of Xeones and Diomache so far. Poor Diomache. Her treatment at the hands of the Argive men.
The whole part, from the burning farms to their fleeing to the hills, just broke my heart.
So sad.

Steven Pressfield is a breathlessly talented author. And he has an incredible ability to capture humanity in his words. Even the description of poor Stumblefoot the mule and the animals that suffered after the Argive onslaught, little innocent Xeones and his precious bundle of eggs.
Pressfield really knows how to get me. :-( (hide spoiler)]

I forgot to mention this excerpt from the pages between the end of the historical note, after the title BOOK ONE and Chapter One.
The couple pages that starts;
'By order of his Majesty, Xerxes son of Darius.....'
(view spoiler)[

Several unorthodox aspects of the captive's armour and raiment were noted by the detaining officers. Beneath the man's battle helmet was found not the traditional felt cawl of the Spartan hoplite, but the dogskin cap associated with the race of helots, the Lakedaemonian slave class, serfs of the land.
IN contrast inexplicable to His Majesty's officers, the prisoner's shield and armour were of the finest bronze, etched with rare Hibernian cobalt, while his helmet bore the transverse crest of a full Spartiate, an officer.

Well that didn't half pique my interest. What is this man's story that he was born of the slave class and ended up a Spartan officer?
Made me feel instantly that there was an interesting tale to come. (hide spoiler)]

Just up to Chapter 5 and like Terri I was a bit worried after the first few chapters. But the storyline is now starting to move with momentum. As for the opening excerpt a saying from my work popped in my head "go on about it".

I'm glad I am not the only one that was a little concerned at the start, Michael.
Are you listening to Gates of Fire on Audio?

It really was mind blowing how many countries the Persians conquered and I had no idea that Egyptians served in their armies.
I had a quick look online and found this Wikipedia page timelining the 5th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_cent...
I see the Egyptians successfully revolted against Persia in 486BC. The Battle of Thermopylae was in 480BC.

My mind boggles at the thought of an army of 2 million. What does that even look like? And how do you even begin to feed and arm that many men?

Up to Chapter Eight; (don't read unless you have read it)
(view spoiler)[
Pity the story of a young Xeones and Diomache is swept aside for the story of Xeones when he is older in Sparta. I was really enjoying that story. Looking forward to seeing how Xeones came to Sparta as a child and how he was accepted despite his disability.
I hope that the story goes back there soon. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Eleven;
(view spoiler)[
Excerpt;

Words cannot convey the impact of awe and terror produced upon the foe, any foe, by this seemingly uncomplex manoeuvre, called in Lakedaemon 'spiking it' or 'palming the pine', so simple to perform on the parade ground and so formidable under conditions of life and death. To behold it executed with such precision and fearlessness, no man surging forward out of control nor hanging back in dread, none edging right into the shadow of his rankmate's shield, but holding solid and unbreakable, tight as the scales on a serpent's flank, the heart stopped in awe, the hair stood straight up upon the neck and shivers coursed powerfully the length of the spine.
As when some colossal beast, brought to bay by the hounds, wheels in his fury, bristling with rage and baring his fangs, and plants himself in the power and fearlessness of his strength, so did the bronze and crimson phalanx of the Lakedaemonians now snap as one into it's mode of murder.

Ah, um, well..that's some pretty cool shizzle. :-O
(hide spoiler)]

I finally got a chance to really get into this one this morning. I'm up to chapter 6 and am hooked like you guys. Terri, I agree, Pressfield is a terrific storyteller. I wasn't sure how I would take to this story but man, I'm loving it. I had to concentrate on the couple of early chapters, rereading a few sentences to keep things straight but now I'm off and running.

Knowing that this book is read by Marines, and held in high regard by them, makes reading this book even more interesting. Even just up to chapter 6, I can see how it can be an inspiring read. The conversation between Alexandros and his mentor Dienekes during pages 34-36 was pretty powerful and I can see how this would be inspiring to young men (and women) training for battle.

Chapter Fifteen;
(view spoiler)[
The men were running impact drills, two-on-ones and three-on-twos, when a distinguished elder named Charilaus, who had been an ephor and a priest of Apollo but now functioned primarily as a senoir counsellor and emissary, appeared on the crest of the bank and spoke aside to the polemarch Derkylides, the regimental commander. The old man was past seventy; he had lost the lower half of a leg in battle years past. For him to have hobbled on his staff this far from the city could only mean something had happened.
The patriarch and the polemarch spoke in private. The drills went on. No one looked up, yet every man knew.
This was it.
Dienekes' men got the word from Laterides, commander of the adjacent platoon, who passed it down the line.
'It's the Gates, lads.'
The Hot Gates.
Thermopylae.

When I read this last night as I was sitting up late reading Gates of Fire....cold washed over me. Down to my toes.
(hide spoiler)]

I agree Tasha. Every now and then the writing gets too clever and I wonder how many soldiers give up on the book during these parts, but on the whole, I can see why the modern warrior connects with this novel like he does.

I agree Terri, that part from Chapter 11 that you highlighted gave me the "shizzles"...Actually, I don't even know what shizzle is but it sounded good ;)

But really, that scene was very COOL!! I can't even imagine being on the enemy side with that scene coming toward me. Very intimidating.

I'm in Chapter 12 right now and just keep loving this one. What a great story and the details of the events are really great. Pressfield really gives you a sense of what it was like to be right there.

I'm going to back up a minute since I've have not really had the chance to make comments since starting.

Chapter 9 (view spoiler)[ I was really struck by Alexandros' description of esoterika harmonia and exoterike harmonia while sneaking secret talks with Xeo.

"We talked for hours in secret on the pursuit of esoterike harmonia, that state of self-composure which the exercises of the phobologia are designed to produce. As a string of the kithera vibrates purely, emitting only that note of the musical scale which is its alone, so must the individual warrior shed all which is superfluous in his spirit, until he himself vibrates at that sole pitch which his individual daimon dictates."
"Beyond esoterike harmonia lies exoterike harmonia, that state of union with one's fellows which parallels the musical harmony of the mulitstringed instrument or of the chorus of voices itself. In battle exoterike harmonia guides the phalanx to move and strike as one man, of a songle mind and will."

Ok, so I don't actually see Spartan warriors (or present day Marines) actually thinking about their training, hours and hours of grueling training, in such delicate terms as Alexandros did, but the premise of the ideas made sense to me, a civilian. It makes me wonder how our present day Marines react to that description. I wonder if they scoff at that or if on some level it makes sense to them. By scoff, I don't mean dismiss this idea but just the way in which the idea is presented...more in a gentle art form than in a more aggressive, warrior form. (hide spoiler)]

The description of the war train from the main body of the troops to the very end of the train, ending with the sacrificial animals, must have made an impressive sight!

Terri -
please check 'message 15' I think there is a error in your end spoiler tag and it is eating the rest of the messages in this topic.

thanks

Chapter 11
(view spoiler)[When a man seats before his eyes the bronze face of his helmet and steps off from the line of departure, he divides himself, as he divides his 'ticket', in two parts. One part he leaves behind. That part which takes delight in his children, which lifts his voice in the chorus, which clasps his wife to him in the sweet of darkness of their bed.
"That half of him, the best part, a man sets aside and leaves behind. He banishes from his heart all feelings of tenderness and mercy, all compassion and kindness, all thought or concept of the enemy as a man, a human being like himself. He marches into battle bearing only the second portion of himself, the baser measure, that half which knows slaughter and butchery and turns the blind eye to quarter. He could not fight at all if he did not do this."
"Then this man returns, alive, out of the slaughter. He hears his name called and comes forward to take his ticket. He reclaims that part of himself which he had earlier set aside."

Very interesting. It really helps me to grasp that concept of warrior behavior that I am always impressed with, that comes from those men (and women) that are not sociopaths, going into battle to just kill for the thrill of killing. Although I've understood that this is what needs to happen before someone can really go into battle and be prepared to kill, it helps to see it written this way. I don't know, it just impressed me. (hide spoiler)]

I like the ticket system they used. It seemed a great way to account for everyone.

I am up to chapter 11 and loving it. Yes the ticket system is great, the first ever dog tag.

Tom,
I see the end of that spoiler had a ? instead of a >, but I am confused about what it was doing to the thread. I have changed it though, and I hope that fixes the problem. :-)

I wonder..is there archaeological or written evidence of the tag system or whether it was straight from Pressfield's imagination???

I hope it is real. :-)

I forgot to say that I really loved the way Leonidas joined his men in battle. So in contrast to Xerxes!

I have finished. Wow.
No-one read my review of this book (that includes you Tasha..:-)..) because I don't want any of my review to give away anything for you guys until you have finished.

Tasha,
Yes, they certainly were two different Kings, Leonidas and Xerses. One surrounded by his men on the battlefield, one surrounded by his tents and concubines and carpets and luxuries of the east
In my view,
Kings that battle in the ranks are noble and brave Kings, but Kings that sit back in safety and direct are smarter Kings. A battle is usually over if a King falls. They have to keep themselves safe.

It sounds like you guys are really enjoying your book so if any of you wanted to read further after "Gates of Fire" I could recommend one very good history book; "Thermopylae: The Battle for the West" by Ernle Bradford.

by Ernle Bradford

Thanks for that Aussie Rick. :-) I shall go look at the link now. Although my next book will be
by David Finkel

Chapter 35;
(view spoiler)[
At the beginning of this thread, my first comment about the book after starting it, concerned this excerpt;

Several unorthodox aspects of the captive's armour and raiment were noted by the detaining officers.
Beneath the man's battle helmet was found not the traditional felt cawl of the Spartan hoplite, but the dogskin cap associated with the race of helots, the Lakedaemonian slave class, serfs of the land.
IN contrast inexplicable to His Majesty's officers, the prisoner's shield and armour were of the finest bronze, etched with rare Hibernian cobalt, while his helmet bore the transverse crest of a full Spartiate, an officer.

I said at the time that this mystery made for a good story coming up.
I could never imagine how sad I would feel when I finally got to the part which solves that mystery. Excerpt from Chapter 35, as they brace for the final day and final stand at Thermopylae.
Talk about heart wrenching.

My place was third in the second file, for the first time in my life without my bow but clutching instead in my right hand the heavy haft of the eight-footer which had last been Doreion's. Around my left forearm, braced tight against the elbow, stood wrapped the linen-cushioned bronze sleeve bolted through the oak and the bronze facing of the aspis which had been Alexandros'. The helmet I wore had belonged to Lachides and the cap beneath had been that of Ariston's squire, Demades.
(hide spoiler)]

I thought these links were interesting. I got a bit of a thrill seeing the photos of items found at Thermopylae like arrowheads;
http://www.livius.org/th/thermopylae/...

And these links show sites from near the battle and the site of the Battle.
I found the images in the first link quite interesting. The sea used to come right up to where the main road is now located.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/History...
http://www.livius.org/th/thermopylae/...

Pretty neat photo's on some of those links Terri, I really enjoyed the one of the arrowheads as well!

Great links Terri.

Terri wrote: "Tom,
I see the end of that spoiler had a ? instead of a >, but I am confused about what it was doing to the thread. I have changed it though, and I hope that fixes the problem. :-)"

thanks - it was not displaying the rest of the messages in my browser, the topic ended on your spoiler. i had to click it to see the other messages.

Thanks Tom. What a bizarre glitch. I appreciate you letting me know.
_______________________________________

After reading Gates of Fire, it was a real buzz seeing those photos. Seeing the path and the lay out of the land. Seeing the arrows and the statue/bust of Leonidas that was found in Sparta.

Here is a better picture of the arrowheads. It shows spearheads also. The picture was right at the bottom of one of those other links I posted and I thought I'd single it out because it shows spearheads whereas the other website link shows only arrowheads (although, in it's favour, it does show the arrowheads up close)..
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/Ther...

Finished! Great, great book, a definite 5 star read for me. Thanks Terri. :)

You are most welcome!!!! {:o)

I keep forgetting to drop back to this thread to say;

Suicide was my favourite character. I liked his darning needle javelins even if I did have trouble visualising them.
And;
don't read if you haven't read the whole book;
(view spoiler)[ I thought that Xeones dying in the end was a good thing. It would be hard to be the only survivor when you had all pacted (if that's even a word) to die together.

And the story the boat captain told was so sad. When he took the women back to the Hot Gates and one woman stayed longer. I wonder who that was? (hide spoiler)]

Terri wrote: "I keep forgetting to drop back to this thread to say;

Suicide was my favourite character. I liked his darning needle javelins even if I did have trouble visualising them.
And;
don't read if you ha..."

It was (view spoiler)[diophene (sp?) (hide spoiler)]

Last chapter;
(view spoiler)[How did you work it out? They never said did they?

The captain never said a name, she never spoke and he said she'd had her face covered.
Did I miss something important that gave her identity away? (hide spoiler)]

Last chapter (view spoiler)[she ended up being in some type of religious place, or nunnery of some sort. Xeo visited her right before the battle at thermopolae. He wanted (or thought about) running away with her but she didn't want to leave the place. She had a little child too. The reason I figure it was her was because of her head covering, she wore a head covering when he visited her at the place. Just seemed to fit her description. (hide spoiler)]

Last Chapter;
(view spoiler)[ Oh yeah, that's right. The religion was like the Lady of the Veil or something wasn't it. Thankyou. that solved that mystery for me.

I thought Pressfield was leaving it open for the reader to make that lone woman whichever wife or sister or cousin they wanted.

Although, when you say Diophene...you actually meant Diomache. :-) (hide spoiler)]