Reading the Chunksters discussion

Ok everyone, the day has arrived! Let's hear what you think of the first 4 chapters of Vanity Fair!?!

YAY - I will be starting this book tomorrow and will let you know how it goes.

i have read the first chapter and can already tell that that becky will be up to no good! mean girl!

I have read the first 3 chapters. I can not wait to see what Rebecca is going to do. She is a little sassy.

Kristina wrote: "She is a little sassy. "

And Donald Trump is a little vain! It will be fun to see which of us admires her and which of us want to take her out and shake her.

Everyman wrote: "Donald Trump is a little vain! "

Not unlike Joseph.

I absolutely loved the image of Becky throwing the dictionary out of the cab window. Poor, well-meaning Jemima! You can just tell that Becky is going to be excellent value!

It will be fun to see which of us admires her and which of us want to take her out and shake her.

*raises hand* Admirer all the way. It's like the quote says... "well behaved women rarely make history." So far as I'm reading it (ended chapter 9 last night) I have the opinion that she's been forced to be an independent woman and, seeing how she has no family to look out for her, she's looking out for herself. I can't really find fault in that. Would we rather see her have the "oh woe is me" attitude through this whole thing? Not me. I'd be annoyed with her if she spent the entire time wallowing in self pity about her problems. If this book was set in modern times and she did that I suspect we'd tell her to get over herself and suck it up and stop waiting on someone else to give her handouts.

Candice wrote: "Would we rather see her have the "oh woe is me" attitude through this whole thing? Not me. I'd be annoyed with her if she spent the entire time wallowing in self pity about her problems. If this book was set in modern times and she did that I suspect we'd tell her to get over herself and suck it up and stop waiting on someone else to give her handouts..."

I agree. Hats off to Thackary for making Becky a strong woman at a time when the fashion in literature was for self-pitying women or women who passively accepted what the world of men threw at them. Thackary critisises the fittingly named Miss Sharp for her spite, but I think he actually quite admires her and certainly seems to enjoy writing her! Personally, I also enjoy her as a reader. The episode with the curry brought a smile to my face.

ok, i've finished the first 4 chapters and i wonder...is she a strong woman or ungrateful. right now, she seems a little ungrateful and maybe even spoiled (if a poor girl can be spoiled). i have to agree that she is a change from the norm of this time period, but i hope she turns into a strong woman and not just the 'sassy' girl who gets her way at all cost. looking forward to seeing her progress.

Stephanie wrote: "ok, i've finished the first 4 chapters and i wonder...is she a strong woman or ungrateful. right now, she seems a little ungrateful and maybe even spoiled (if a poor girl can be spoiled)..."

She is ungrateful, spoilt, calculating and spiteful. She is a flawed character, but that is what makes her interesting. Her situation helps us excuse her behaviour a little (if Amelia was behaving in this way we wouldn't be able to warm to her at all), but not completely. We're invited to be amused by her anctics, but not necessarily condone them.

Charlotte Bronte admired Vanity Fair enormously, and even dedicated the second edition of Jane Eyre to him. Here is her comment on Thackeray and VF:

There is a man in our own days whose words are not framed to tickle delicate ears: who, to my thinking, comes before the great ones of society, much as the son of Imlah came before the throned Kings of Judah and Israel; and who speaks truth as deep, with a power as prophet-like and as vital--a mien as dauntless and as daring. Is the satirist of "Vanity Fair" admired in high places? I cannot tell; but I think if some of those amongst whom he hurls the Greek fire of his sarcasm, and over whom he flashes the levin-brand of his denunciation, were to take his warnings in time--they or their seed might yet escape a fatal Rimoth-Gilead.

Why have I alluded to this man? I have alluded to him, Reader, because I think I see in him an intellect profounder and more unique than his contemporaries have yet recognised; because I regard him as the first social regenerator of the day--as the very master of that working corps who would restore to rectitude the warped system of things; because I think no commentator on his writings has yet found the comparison that suits him, the terms which rightly characterise his talent. They say he is like Fielding: they talk of his wit, humour, comic powers. He resembles Fielding as an eagle does a vulture: Fielding could stoop on carrion, but Thackeray never does. His wit is bright, his humour attractive, but both bear the same relation to his serious genius that the mere lambent sheet-lightning playing under the edge of the summer-cloud does to the electric death-spark hid in its womb. Finally, I have alluded to Mr. Thackeray, because to him--if he will accept the tribute of a total stranger--I have dedicated this second edition of "JANE EYRE."

This isn't about Vanity Fair specifically, but I didn't see any other place to post it. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed gender-wise; so far I'm the only male to post on the book, and when I look at the most active posters in Chunksters, the top 17 are all female. So if some of my posts sound like a guy crashing all-girl slumber party, please forgive me and understand that, after all, that seems to be pretty much what I am!

It is all good, everyman. Loved the Donald Trump comment by the way.

I already think I am going to be the Becky fan. I like characters that are cunning and deviant in a time frame that it was considered taboo. This is going to be a great read.

The "Before the Curtain" has always both interested and confused me.

Interested because it's a rich description of amusements and those who prey on them. I imagine that a mid-19th century Fair was indeed a lively and exciting place of amusement and petty crimes [with Fagin's minions filching handkerchiefs, watches, and the like right and left] and quacks peddling their nostrums.

Among the amusements we are particularly directed to a puppet show with "the famous little Becky Puppet [who] has been pronounced to be uncommonly flexible in the joints, and lively on the wire; the Amelia Doll, [who] though it has had a smaller circle of admirers, has yet been carved and dressed with the greatest care by the artist...;"

Confused because I've never had much success seeing how the book is a representation of a vanity fair, nor have I found it easy to see Becky as a puppet being manipulated by the puppet master.

I'm going to try, for this reading, to see whether I can be more successful in seeing this aspect of Thackeray's plan for the novel, or whether I have to conclude that he doesn't really carry off his intention very successfully.

Everyman wrote: "Charlotte Bronte admired Vanity Fair enormously, and even dedicated the second edition of Jane Eyre to him. Here is her comment on Thackeray and VF:

There is a man in our own days whose words are..."

i think it is funny that you mention this dedication as i just finished jane eyre and can see why c. bronte would like thackeray's female leads, in them (amelia and becky) there seem to be aspects of jane.

Everyman wrote: "Charlotte Bronte admired Vanity Fair enormously, and even dedicated the second edition of Jane Eyre to him. Here is her comment on Thackeray and VF:"

I read the dedication in the introduction of my edition. I am very interested to see how it plays out.

Amanda wrote: "She is ungrateful, spoilt, calculating and spiteful. She is a flawed character, but that is what makes her interesting. Her situation helps us excuse her behaviour a little (if Amelia was behaving in this way we wouldn't be able to warm to her at all), but not completely. We're invited to be amused by her anctics, but not necessarily condone them."

I agree. Thackeray's narrative interruptions often comment on the extenuating circumstances in Becky's life but I don't think he necessarily condones them. I think the narrator believes that Becky's reactions to her circumstances are understandable and perhaps even unavoidable but that doesn't mean they are morally or ethically acceptable.

I get the feeling that he feels that way about most of the characters. They have reasons for being the way they are but their self-regard (vanity) undermines their extenuating circumstances and ultimately makes them unlikable. At this point the one possible exception I see might be Dobbin.

I have to admit that I like Becky too. She's not someone I would necessarily want to be friends with because I think she would throw you under the bus for her own gain. I think she has to be independent and fiesty in order to survive on her own, but I do feel like she is absolutely taking advantage of Amelia and her naivety.

She is an interesting character to read because I think she is so multi-faceted.

Denise wrote: "I have to admit that I like Becky too. She's not someone I would necessarily want to be friends with because I think she would throw you under the bus for her own gain..."

I was going to say that! She's great in fiction, but wouldn't be in reality. You certainly wouldn't want to be responcible for her.

Denise wrote: "I have to admit that I like Becky too. She's not someone I would necessarily want to be friends with because I think she would throw you under the bus for her own gain."

It will be interesting to see whether her bff Amelia reappears later in the book, and if so whether you are right about the way she would treat a friend.

Has anyone watched the movie?

I know books always differ -for better or worse- from their movie counterparts. Having watched the movie first (it's what made me decide to read the book as I fell in love with the time period and the storyline) I've found that it's helped me a lot with visualizing what is going on in any given chapter. It's been a loooong while since I picked up a book that was a real challenge to read, and having at least a clue about what is happening has really helped me out.

Candice wrote: "Has anyone watched the movie?"

I haven't, I think we are thinking of watching it after we get done reading...sort of as part of the book...what does everone else think??

Kristi wrote: "Candice wrote: "Has anyone watched the movie?"

I haven't, I think we are thinking of watching it after we get done reading...sort of as part of the book...what does everone else think??"

I'm holding off until I've finished reading Vanity Fair as I prefer to read a book before seeing the film, but I'd love to have a group discussion on the film afterwards!

Kristi wrote: I haven't, I think we are thinking of watching it after we get done reading...sort of as part of the book...what does everone else think??"

My apologies, then - I didn't realize that was what we were going to do otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it! :)

Denise wrote: "I have to admit that I like Becky too. She's not someone I would necessarily want to be friends with because I think she would throw you under the bus for her own gain. I think she has to be indep..."

I'm another Becky fan so far. She's so intriguing. To be quite honest, I felt sorry for her through the first couple of chapters. I think she's just bitter and jaded, and that, to me, makes for an interesting character! :)

i like the idea of waiting to watch the movie until the end of the book.

still not sure how i feel about becky...:D

ok, after we finish the last week I will post a thread for the movie, and then we can all watch it and comment. Sound good??

Kristi wrote: "ok, after we finish the last week I will post a thread for the movie, and then we can all watch it and comment. Sound good??"

Sounds good!

yes, i love that idea, as well! :D

Kristi wrote: "ok, after we finish the last week I will post a thread for the movie, and then we can all watch it and comment. Sound good??"

I thought that was what we were going to do anyway, Kristi :)

Amanda wrote: "Kristi wrote: "ok, after we finish the last week I will post a thread for the movie, and then we can all watch it and comment. Sound good??"

I thought that was what we were going to do anyway, ..."

Yep, but it's always good to reiterate when there are questions. So I figured I'd put it out there again.

Rebecca wrote: "I love the narrator asides so far. Am I right that it's Thackeray who's narrating, or is the narrator another character? Either way, the archness and sarcasm are pretty amusing.

Becky Sharp rem..."

From my opinion, it seems that Becky's friendship with Amelia is legit and authentic. What does everyone else think?

Liz Vegas wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "I love the narrator asides so far. Am I right that it's Thackeray who's narrating, or is the narrator another character? Either way, the archness and sarcasm are pretty amusing.
..."

I feel like I'm still trying to figure out if their friendship is legit. I'm thinking it is on some level, but Becky tends to turn it up a bit at times. When she began to cry at the thought of having to leave her friend, I think the tears were more about having to leave than having to leave Amelia.

Rebecca wrote: "I love the narrator asides so far. Am I right that it's Thackeray who's narrating, or is the narrator another character? Either way, the archness and sarcasm are pretty amusing.

Becky Sharp rem..."

I have to totally agree. Amelia seems to bring out the best in everyone, including Becky and Becky seems to be herself with Amelia.

Hi, I am a newcomer to this group. I am so pleased to discover that there is a current discussion of Vanity Fair here, as I started it on my own (or so I believed) just a couple of weeks ago. (I am currently taking a short breather from this monster to sample a few side dishes before diving back in.)

The main reason I wanted to post now is to reassure Everyman that there is (as of now, at any rate) more than one male participant!

I also want to comment on what Everyman said below (or above, depending on your setup), that he's "never had much success seeing how the book is a representation of a vanity fair" or seeing Becky as a puppet. I agree with the puppet part (although I'm willing to listen to an argument in favor of Becky being a puppet), but it seems to me that the title "Vanity Fair" is a very apt description of the book so far. First, doesn't the title come from Pilgrim's Progress? I can't remember what happened, exactly, in Bunyan's (if that's who it was) depiction of "Vanity Fair," but I do recall a lot of characters being preoccupied with self-gratification. It seems to me that the key element in Thackeray's version of Vanity Fair (which may or may not have been present in Bunyan's, I can't recall) is a preoccupation with how one is perceived by others or where one stands in the social hierarchy. Certainly the status-seeking students at Becky's and Amelie's school - not to mention the head of the school - are guilty of that in spades. In fact, having read a little further than the first four chapters (and having a dim memory of seeing the movie a few years ago), I have a strong feeling that the whole book is going to be jam-packed with characters who are totally focused on where they are and how they stand in relation to the others.

In this vein, I posted something earlier today in the Victorians group, before I was aware that this group existed:

"I'm really struck by how these Victorian-era novels, and especially the ones from the early victorian period, are so pervaded by social anxiety. It's as if the characters are desperately trying to get a clear fix on their status in a social hierarchy that is constantly shifting around them. It's hard for me, as an American, to fully grasp, on an emotional level, what a cataclysmic event the French Revolution was - not only for France but, indirectly, for England and other countries in Europe as well."

Sorry to go on at such length. I haven't participated in an internet discussion for a long time, so I guess I have a lot of pent-up hot air to let out!

I just thought the opening was just supposed to be a selection of comical scenes from the lives of ordinary people - a promise from Thackery that the following novel is writen to amuse and saterise. As it was published in various volumes, he'd have to sell people on the series in the first installment and "Before the Curtain" gives the reader a sneak preview of what can be expected from the rest of the novel.

The puppet reference I put down to the romantisised idea of men being mere puppets to their fates acting out the play that is life...a fairly common image in classical literature.

These are just my initial impressions. I've only read the first four chapters so far (aka the first volume), so it'll be interesting to see if my perception shifts.

Amanda wrote: "Kristi wrote: "ok, after we finish the last week I will post a thread for the movie, and then we can all watch it and comment. Sound good??"

I thought that was what we were going to do anyway, ..."

Which movie are we talking about? I checked my library, and they don't have any DVD of it,so I'll have to get it on interlibrary loan, and if there's more than one, need to know which one we're going to watch.

I'm a bit surprised that my small but excellent library doesn't have it; I'm even more surprised that they don't even have the book!

Rebecca wrote: "I love the narrator asides so far. Am I right that it's Thackeray who's narrating, or is the narrator another character? "

That's a great question. We're told in the "Before the Curtain" section that we're watching a puppet show that the "manager of the Performance" has presumably put together. We're the audience, engaged while waiting for the performance to start in "a great quantity of eating and drinking, making love and jilting, laughing and the contrary, smoking, cheating, fighting, dancing and fiddling;...". And then the curtain rises and the puppets come on stage. But as to who is describing the puppet actions for us, that doesn't seem to me clear.

Rebecca wrote: "I love the narrator asides so far."

This was a fairly common aspect of 18th and 19th century novels, with the author sometimes just making indirect asides (George Eliot does this quite a bit, to great effect) and some actually addressing the reader directly. I usually see the reader in these cases just addressed as "dear reader," but Thackeray has a whole range of ways of addressing us: just a few examples: dear reader, ingenious reader, good-matured reader, fair reader, gentle reader, astonished reader, beloved reader.

Along with you, I love this technique, though I know some other readers who really dislike it and think the author should just tell the story and keep himself out of it (as most modern authors do).

Liz Vegas wrote: "From my opinion, it seems that Becky's friendship with Amelia is legit and authentic. What does everyone else think? "

I'm reluctant to believe that there is anything about Becky Sharp which is legit and authentic. It's possible that her friendship with Amelia is an exception, but I'm not at all sure. Perhaps we'll see them together again later in the book; if this is the case, we might get a better sense of whether Becky's friendship is really sincere, or whether, as I suspect at this point is the case, her main interest in Amelia is her wealth and access to potential husbands.

Bob wrote: "it seems to me that the title "Vanity Fair" is a very apt description of the book so far. First, doesn't the title come from Pilgrim's Progress? "

Welcome, fellow male participant! I loved your post.

Yes, the title comes from Chapter 6 of Pilgrim's Progress, which comes from the Bible, Ecclesiastes 1-2 "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity," and later, verse 14, "I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit."

But what's interesting is that the use of Vanity in the Bible doesn't have the same meaning as we apply to vanity today. It doesn't mean so much self-pride as it does "in vain," that all the works of man are as naught compared to the works of God and God's nature.

Bunyan, in Pilgrim's Progress, though, seems to mean the more contemporary meaning of vanity, though I think there are still echoes of the earlier meaning. And I think it is this meaning that Thackeray adopts, though I also think there may be more complexity to it than that, though this is probably a question better raised when we're near the end of the book -- what does the title really mean?

About the narrator:
just as with jane eyre i find the narrator's addresses distracting as it is a constant reminder and makes sure that i am not in the piece but actually an observer...and, only an observer.

About the beginning:
i borrowed this book from a friend and her edition doesn't have the puppet beginning and when i was explaining it to her and then let her read it she found that very interesting and wanted to talk about it, but i told her she'd have to wait until i'd read more of the book. :)

and, i agree, Bob...
as an American i have a hard time grasping the idea that class means everything.

Everyman wrote: "Which movie are we talking about? I checked my library, and they don't have any DVD of it,so I'll have to get it on interlibrary loan, and if there's more than one, need to know which one we're going to watch. "

It's the one with Reese Witherspoon in it. I think it's the only version.

I, sadly did see the movie (Reese Witherspoon) a few years ago. I also prefer to read books before seeing the movie, but sometimes it happens the other way around.
I am a Becky fan at this point, but I reserve my right to change my mind at the end of the book. I know I've seen the movie, and though I do have some visuals in my head, I can separate characters. I do think that Becky is as genuine as she can be in her friendship right now. I don't think she ever truly knew what friendship was and still might not know, so that her relationship with Amelia is as close to true genuine friendship as our little Becky can get at this point.

You will find that I am the QUEEN of run on sentences. If you are a stickler for grammar I apologize, thank goodness there is spell check to save some of your sanity.

I'm interested in Everyman and Bob's discussion on the title and how it plays into the story, but I think things will develop into the title as the story progresses.

I haven't read all the above comments, but I'll get to them.

I just started the book today, since I had forgotten that we were reading it. Oops!

I saw the movie a few months back, and loved it. Reese Witherspoon is an admirable Becky!

So far I am loving the book too. It's well written; I love how Thackeray talks with and to the reader, something that hardly any books do anymore these days. It's one thing I've always found so charming about the classics.

Otherwise, I feel I'll be inclined to compare the book to the movie in my mind quite a bit, but since (whilst skimming) quite a few of you have not yet seen the film, I'll not post those remarks here.

I like Bob's comments above on the Victorian era and society. I'll probably post my own views after I catch up reading!

♥Xeni♥ wrote: I love how Thackeray talks with and to the reader, something that hardly any books do anymore these days. It's one thing I've always found so charming about the classics. "

I'm with you there. I love this technique, at least when an author pulls it off skillfully, as Thackeray does. It meccas me feel much more personally connected to the author, as though he were there actually telling me the story.

Everyman wrote: "I'm with you there. I love this technique, at least when an author pulls it off skillfully, as Thackeray does. It meccas me feel much more personally connected to the author, as though he were there actually telling me the story..."

It reminds me of a Shakespearean aside, where an actor give the audience more information than the other characters are privvy to.

Mhh, it's a bit like that, but Thackeray manages to pull it off with more of a personal touch, I find. (Although, if any book has a way of drawing the reader in with a personal touch, I'd have to say it's The Crimson Petal and the White!)

I just caught up with the first section and it was wonderful to read all the posts! I was avoiding them all week knowing that I didn't want to spoil anything for myself.

I guess I'm in the Becky fan club! I really appreciate her courage to stand up for herself knowing that she is alone in the world. I can only hope that this will not be at the expense of the people that have been kind to her. If she crosses that line I may change my opinion of her.

I really enjoyed the first section very much. I though the transition between the first section and the second was a little sloppy and for some time I was like whom are these people and why am I so confused. In all honesty it was late at night when I was reading and I may just have missed the connection that would have made this more seamless.