Discovering Russian Literature discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Group Reads Archive - 2011
>
War and Peace - Part 1 (Chapters 1-25)
date
newest »
newest »
I just started it. I do agree with Patrice about characters posing. I didn't think Anna Pavlona was trying to make a serious discussion on Napoleon and the probability of war, I thought it was just salon chatting, with characters showing off and trying to be witty. Maybe it's a way of starting the book showing "the aristocrats' good lives" with just a surface portrait to later develop the characters.
I felt instant sympathy for Pierre. He doesn't seem to care if the people in party despise or make fun of him, I thought it showed naviety in his character. I found funny how others find him rude while he's enjoying the Napoleon discussion and taking it too seriously. Also, he was educated and grew up in France, it has sense to me that he admires Napoleon or is considered an outsider in the russian circles.
I felt instant sympathy for Pierre. He doesn't seem to care if the people in party despise or make fun of him, I thought it showed naviety in his character. I found funny how others find him rude while he's enjoying the Napoleon discussion and taking it too seriously. Also, he was educated and grew up in France, it has sense to me that he admires Napoleon or is considered an outsider in the russian circles.
Tolstoy sympathizes with Pierre, one of the principal personages of the novel, because he is the incarnation of sincerity and frankness, the traits deeply appreciated by the author. Pierre has got strong independent opinions about the matters of principle, and is willing to defend his convictions, but he is gentle and tractable towards his close people. Generally, when reading War and Peace, you can instantly catch the author's attitude towards his characters by trying and grasping the meaning of the subtle psychological details, which are numerous.
Patrice wrote: "That's a great point Antia. I also felt, immediate compassion for Pierre. Who wouldn't feel out of place in such company? I have the BBC version on DVD. Anthony Hopkins plays Pierre and while I..."
Sir Anthony Hopkins as Pierre? that's something I would certainly want to watch! I love BBC classic-books productions. I've just watched the old film with Henry Fonda as Pierre, that didn't fit in how I imagined Pierre.. but Audrey Hepburn was perfect as Natasha.
I didn't have much time for reading these last days so I'm still on the party scene.
What did you think of Prince Andrei's introduction?
Sir Anthony Hopkins as Pierre? that's something I would certainly want to watch! I love BBC classic-books productions. I've just watched the old film with Henry Fonda as Pierre, that didn't fit in how I imagined Pierre.. but Audrey Hepburn was perfect as Natasha.
I didn't have much time for reading these last days so I'm still on the party scene.
What did you think of Prince Andrei's introduction?
I've just finished Chapter 6. I found interesting the contrast between the party on the first chapters in Anna Pavlovna's house and the drunks scene in Chapter 6, in the house of Kuragin. What I liked is that even if Pierre is often described as naive and good young man, he's also shown weak when he can't refuse joining the party and getting drunk, even if his friend Andrey asked him to promise he wouldn't. I don't like books with one-side characters, heroes are good and villians always being bad, so that's one of things I'm enjoying with this book. Portraying both good and bad sides of one personality makes it more human and credible to me.
The same happened to me in first part of Chapter 6, when Prince Andrey argues with his wife. I could understand her complaining of his being shelfish and wanting to leave his pregnant wife to go to war, but I thought he was "regreting" being married because of the dangers that would happen in war, being his proffesion military, not because he didn't love her.
The same happened to me in first part of Chapter 6, when Prince Andrey argues with his wife. I could understand her complaining of his being shelfish and wanting to leave his pregnant wife to go to war, but I thought he was "regreting" being married because of the dangers that would happen in war, being his proffesion military, not because he didn't love her.
Antía wrote: "Patrice wrote: "That's a great point Antia. I also felt, immediate compassion for Pierre. Who wouldn't feel out of place in such company? I have the BBC version on DVD. Anthony Hopkins plays Pi..."What kind of personality is Prince Andrei at the beginning of the novel? He seems to be one of those few men who is beloved by some women, and esteemed by many men. He values his friendship with Pierre, while he totally neglects his charming wife,and I wonder,what is the reason of it? Seemingly, Prince Andrei would appreciate his wife, if she was able to become his real friend,even like-minded person.
Natalie wrote: "Antía wrote: "Patrice wrote: "That's a great point Antia. I also felt, immediate compassion for Pierre. Who wouldn't feel out of place in such company? I have the BBC version on DVD. Anthony Ho..."
At the argument, his wife tells Andrei, "you loved me 6 months ago" (I'm reading in spanish translation, so I'm quoting with what I think would be closest translation) I thought maybe it was that he regrets being married to her because her being pregnant makes him difficult to leave and go to war, that being military, I asume he considers his duty. I also thought that even if he goes to those high-society parties, he doesn't enjoy and finds frivolous of his wife for wanting to stay there instead of going to stay with his family while he's out.
Maybe it's not that he doesn't appreciate his wife but isn't happy about her being pregnant?
At the argument, his wife tells Andrei, "you loved me 6 months ago" (I'm reading in spanish translation, so I'm quoting with what I think would be closest translation) I thought maybe it was that he regrets being married to her because her being pregnant makes him difficult to leave and go to war, that being military, I asume he considers his duty. I also thought that even if he goes to those high-society parties, he doesn't enjoy and finds frivolous of his wife for wanting to stay there instead of going to stay with his family while he's out.
Maybe it's not that he doesn't appreciate his wife but isn't happy about her being pregnant?
I consider him not to love his wife any more. Andrey despises high society, and his wife is part of it, although the best one. No one people needed this war, except for "the powers that be", and Lise instinctively understood it. If it were the war of liberation, she wouldn't object his going to war.
Natalie wrote: "I consider him not to love his wife any more. Andrey despises high society, and his wife is part of it, although the best one. No one people needed this war, except for "the powers that be", and Li..."
I understand your point, Andrey doesn't sound like an affectionate man. I personally imagine him as a handsome man (that would attrack female admiration) but with a cold air. I find him quite snob the way he feels supperior to others, even Pierre though he's his friend. But hey.. story is just starting haha
I totally understand Lise, I think a woman in love would be frightened if husband goes to war and might be killed, no matter the reasons for war.
I understand your point, Andrey doesn't sound like an affectionate man. I personally imagine him as a handsome man (that would attrack female admiration) but with a cold air. I find him quite snob the way he feels supperior to others, even Pierre though he's his friend. But hey.. story is just starting haha
I totally understand Lise, I think a woman in love would be frightened if husband goes to war and might be killed, no matter the reasons for war.
Patrice wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Antía wrote: "Patrice wrote: "That's a great point Antia. I also felt, immediate compassion for Pierre. Who wouldn't feel out of place in such company? I have the BBC version on ..."I totally agree with you, Patrice. By the highest standards,both of them are decent people with their own distinctive features - bad and good.
Patrice wrote: "Antía wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Antía wrote: "Patrice wrote: "That's a great point Antia. I also felt, immediate compassion for Pierre. Who wouldn't feel out of place in such company? I have the B..."
It didn't sound to me like a arranged marriage. In the scene when Andrey and wife argue in front of Pierre, Andrey later tells him something like "do not get married until you are old and have lived full life or until you know your future wife enough as not being blinded by love". It made me think it was some kind of crush for Andrey to his wife and didn't realize until after married that they didn't fit together. But I still don't think he's a bad man, I thought problem was the coming war and the pregnacy that made them argue.
I'm about to start Chapter 16. For what I've read today, the Rostov family has been introduced, also Boris and his mother and the story of sick Count Bezukhov and who is going to inherit his fortune. I found interesting the manipulations of Anna Mikhailovna to make his son Boris get some fortune. She sounds like a dislikable woman to me, too ambitious for his son, but I guess that's how things worked at that time. I also found bit strange the scene of Boris and 13-years-old Natasha kissing, but I guess at that age girls married very early..
It didn't sound to me like a arranged marriage. In the scene when Andrey and wife argue in front of Pierre, Andrey later tells him something like "do not get married until you are old and have lived full life or until you know your future wife enough as not being blinded by love". It made me think it was some kind of crush for Andrey to his wife and didn't realize until after married that they didn't fit together. But I still don't think he's a bad man, I thought problem was the coming war and the pregnacy that made them argue.
I'm about to start Chapter 16. For what I've read today, the Rostov family has been introduced, also Boris and his mother and the story of sick Count Bezukhov and who is going to inherit his fortune. I found interesting the manipulations of Anna Mikhailovna to make his son Boris get some fortune. She sounds like a dislikable woman to me, too ambitious for his son, but I guess that's how things worked at that time. I also found bit strange the scene of Boris and 13-years-old Natasha kissing, but I guess at that age girls married very early..
I'd like to add some words of Anna. Not that she is 100 per cent insincere, but like many members of the great world she doesn't have her own opinion on significant questions. She would never go against the stream, if that one is of those who belongs to the ruling circles.Anna emphasizes her loyalty to the throne over and over what makes her an unpleasant personality. She doesn't like and is afraid of those, who are unlike her. Wher Pierre entered her drawing room," a look of anxiety and fear, as at the sight of something too large and unsuited to the place, came over her face when she saw Pierre enter. Though he was certainly rather bigger than the other men in the room, her anxiety could only have reference to the clever though shy, but observant and natural, expression which distinguished him from everyone else in that drawing room".
Natalie wrote: "I'd like to add some words of Anna. Not that she is 100 per cent insincere, but like many members of the great world she doesn't have her own opinion on significant questions. She would never go ag..."
Great point Natalie!
Great point Natalie!
Patrice wrote: "Some think that Pierre was really Tolstoy. What do you think?"
Who knows, I think considering if a fiction character is autobiographical or not might just be only guessing, unless author himself tells so. But I do find some resembling between Pierre and Levin (in Anna Karenina), and Levin is considered autobiographical.. again only guessing.
In the entry of wikipedia to War and Peace I found this:
"Tolstoy incorporated extensive historical research. He was also influenced by many other novels.[8] A veteran of the Crimean War, Tolstoy was quite critical of standard history, especially the standards of military history, in War and Peace. Tolstoy read all the standard histories available in Russian and French about the Napoleonic Wars and combined more traditional historical writing with the novel form. He explains at the start of the novel's third volume his own views on how history ought to be written. His aim was to blur the line between fiction and history, in order to get closer to the truth, as he states in Volume II.
The novel is set 60 years earlier than the time at which Tolstoy wrote it, "in the days of our grandfathers", as he puts it. He had spoken with people who had lived through war during the French invasion of Russia in 1812, so the book is also, in part, accurate ethnography fictionalized. He read letters, journals, autobiographical and biographical materials pertaining to Napoleon and the dozens of other historical characters in the novel. There are approximately 160 real persons named or referred to in War and Peace.
[...]
Many of Tolstoy's characters in War and Peace were based on real-life people known to Tolstoy himself. His grandparents and their friends were the models for many of the main characters, his great-grandparents would have been of the generation of Prince Vasilly or Count Ilya Rostov."
Me again, I won't post or recomend to read the complete entry for the book in wikipedia because it contains the whole plot including spoilers.
Who knows, I think considering if a fiction character is autobiographical or not might just be only guessing, unless author himself tells so. But I do find some resembling between Pierre and Levin (in Anna Karenina), and Levin is considered autobiographical.. again only guessing.
In the entry of wikipedia to War and Peace I found this:
"Tolstoy incorporated extensive historical research. He was also influenced by many other novels.[8] A veteran of the Crimean War, Tolstoy was quite critical of standard history, especially the standards of military history, in War and Peace. Tolstoy read all the standard histories available in Russian and French about the Napoleonic Wars and combined more traditional historical writing with the novel form. He explains at the start of the novel's third volume his own views on how history ought to be written. His aim was to blur the line between fiction and history, in order to get closer to the truth, as he states in Volume II.
The novel is set 60 years earlier than the time at which Tolstoy wrote it, "in the days of our grandfathers", as he puts it. He had spoken with people who had lived through war during the French invasion of Russia in 1812, so the book is also, in part, accurate ethnography fictionalized. He read letters, journals, autobiographical and biographical materials pertaining to Napoleon and the dozens of other historical characters in the novel. There are approximately 160 real persons named or referred to in War and Peace.
[...]
Many of Tolstoy's characters in War and Peace were based on real-life people known to Tolstoy himself. His grandparents and their friends were the models for many of the main characters, his great-grandparents would have been of the generation of Prince Vasilly or Count Ilya Rostov."
Me again, I won't post or recomend to read the complete entry for the book in wikipedia because it contains the whole plot including spoilers.
Antia and Patrice, I read your points of view with great interest, and you make me think more profoundly of the matter.A lot of auther's characteristic features are of Pierre too. There is Tolstoy's autobiographical trilogy: Childhood, Boyhood, Youth. These books are great by themselves, and tell the readers about intellectual development of Tolstoy. It would be great to read them.
Natalie wrote: "Antia and Patrice, I read your points of view with great interest, and you make me think more profoundly of the matter.
A lot of auther's characteristic features are of Pierre too. There is Tolstoy..."
Natalie, I would be really interested on reading the biographical trilogy!
A lot of auther's characteristic features are of Pierre too. There is Tolstoy..."
Natalie, I would be really interested on reading the biographical trilogy!
Patrice wrote: "This is a question about the translation. Every time I read "little wife" or "little princess" I cringe. Is this supposed to be demeaning or is it not?I am particularly interested as I know some..."
"Little princess' is not demeaning at all. Tolstoy just wants the readers to feel his tender emotion to Lise. "Little" in my view means both "not very tall" and "sweet, innocuous, and a little childlike". It seems to me, Tolstoy has overdone his admiration, his portraying of Lise is too sickly-sweet.
I see your point. Tolstoy uses the word "little" partly in the figurative sense. In fact, Lise herself is not too sickly-sweet, she is a nice youthful wife of a man who has cooled gone off her.
Natalie wrote: "Antia and Patrice, I read your points of view with great interest, and you make me think more profoundly of the matter.
A lot of auther's characteristic features are of Pierre too. There is Tolstoy..."
Natalie I've added the biographical trilogy to the "to-read" shelf of group to read in future. I'll try to remember it for the next nomination/poll :)
A lot of auther's characteristic features are of Pierre too. There is Tolstoy..."
Natalie I've added the biographical trilogy to the "to-read" shelf of group to read in future. I'll try to remember it for the next nomination/poll :)
Thanks, Antia. I think it'll be an interesting reading to everyone.
Patrice wrote: "So, what do you think of Pierre? I get the feeling that we're supposed to identify with him. After all, we're not part of the society either, we're kind of entering as outsiders. And he seems to..."
Maybe precisaly because of that. He's young, well educated and soft-hearted.. and he didn't seem so greedy as some of his other relatives.
What do you think of the Rostov family so far?
Maybe precisaly because of that. He's young, well educated and soft-hearted.. and he didn't seem so greedy as some of his other relatives.
What do you think of the Rostov family so far?
Mod
Natalie wrote: "Thanks, Antia. I think it'll be an interesting reading to everyone."
Patrice, Natalie are you currently reading "War and Peace" with the group ? Since the moderators left the group, I thought to postpone this to a future reading
session. So let me know how you want it ok? And for further info check
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Amalie wrote: "Patrice wrote: "I think that Tolstoy is contrasting the Rostov family to the party at Anna's house..."Natalie wrote: "Thanks, Antia. I think it'll be an interesting reading to everyone."
Patrice..."
Amalie, to tell the truth, I've read all these books more than once, I'm just interested in others' opinions on the works by Russian writers. So I would consent to any determination, but I'm not sure about other members' preferences, as many have already started reading Tolstoy.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
WARNING: Discussions will include plot details!