Good Reads Vegetarians discussion

Hi, Spanish vegetarian here.

This is something that is going through my mind lately. I'm a little bit confused on this subject, so I'd appreciate some opinions. The question is:

ARE THEY EVIL?

Of course, by "they" I mean the meat-eaters.

I know, I know. I was a meat-eater once, not so long ago really. Not so long ago. But I didn't know what was going on! I didn't know how we treat animals in farms. I watched a couple of documentaries about that ("Baraka" and "Our Daily Bread") and I just stopped eating flesh because I didn't want to be a part of that hell!

So, let's see. I know what they're doing to animals and I stop eating them. It is not about the death of animals, it's about a life of torture.

I tell my friends and family. They know what's happening because I told them.

SO?

None of them even *considered* to become a vegetarian. They didn't think about it in the first place.

SO?

I told them that meat is not necessary if they eat eggs and drink cow milk, and even that can be overcomed.

SO?

I don't want to think my friends and relatives are evil, but it's hard to excuse them.

Did you even think about these dark matters?

Yes, I think about this. They knowingly take part in torture and they do it simply because they can. It's hard to look past this.

I'm glad I'm not alone :)

"simply because they can" --> and because it's tasty. I think that's all. Some people even told me so: "I'm not going to stop eating meat because I like it and it's tasty". People who said so to me don't seem evil, in fact some of them are close friends and I think they are decent people.

But, like I just said, it's hard to excuse them.

Interesting question! I have been vegan for 14 years now. So needless to say I have given this a lot of thought. I used to be a lot more tormented in attempting to get others to give up animal products. At some point I realized that living my life as a vegan, and letting others live their own lives, was the best thing I could do for the animals. I mean, I ate animals for years. I gave it up when I was ready. It isn't my business to judge anyone for where they are in their own lives.

I thought the comment about eggs and dairy was interesting. IMO, milk and eggs are responsible for just as much suffering as eating meat is. Is someone who is ovo-lacto vegetarian evil? Am *I* evil because I took antibiotics last year for a sinus infection and those antibiotics are tested on animals?

My point is this--as a vegan I do what I can to reduce animal suffering. I try and set a good example and educate people when I can. Classifying people as evil because they aren't yet where I am isn't helpful. It isn't helpful for my own life, and isn't helpful for the animals.

"Is someone who is ovo-lacto vegetarian evil?" --> Good point! I also thought about this one because I am an ovo-lacto.

I try to find a balance in my life between doing the right thing and living easily. It would difficult for me to be a vegan, because of my current situation. I'd like to become a vegan in the future, but now it would be hard.

BUT stop eating meat is so simple! There's no problem. Just don't! What's the problem? Like I just said, some people even say "I'm not going to stop eating meat because it's tasty". That's so close to evilness I can't just ignore it, can you?

I'm very interested in this question. I became a veggie almost 8 years ago, when I was 17. My interest in this discourse partially stems from my remembering the ease with which I gave up eating flesh. I attribute this to having familial support and educating myself pretty well beforehand.

I have, however, thought a great deal about why it is so difficult for many of my friends to make the "leap," a term I use not to emphasize the challenge implied therein. I have acquired a term that was new to me having read Peter Singer's Animal Liberation. The word is "speciesism."

Like so many other -isms - racism, Buddhism, sexism, atheism, feminism, pacifism, and so on - speciesism represents an ideology, a way of approaching the world. The ideology of speciesism is one that, knowingly or otherwise, most vegetarians and vegans reject, at least partially.

We must consider where we are geographically, historically, culturally, etc...before we pass too harsh a judgement on a belief. I think you would all agree that racism, or sexism for that matter, is abhorrent regardless. However, if we fail to humanize the position of others, and we fail to place it in geography, history, and culture, we are ignoring the very empathy that has led many of us to avoid eating animals in the first place. Obviously, this is not to advocate relativism, only to understand that most people have arrived at their various ideologies for reasons other than insanity or pure evil.

When we consider the question of change and the inherent challenge there, we must see that the majority of people are, in one way or another, a speciesist. This majority includes vegetarians, vegans, meat-eaters. The decision to eliminate animal products from one's diet does not necessarily mean that one has overcome the grip of speciesism. Many of us who realize the brutality that comes with consuming or wearing animal also consider our social organizations, our techical advancements, and our artistic achievements as representing progress transcendent of "animal" realm, thereby separating ourselves from our own animalism. We see these progressions as being beneficial to our "quality of life," all the while becoming more and more distant from a natural and sustainable definition thereof. In essence, we look at those "below" us, the non-human animals, with pity.

Believe me, I think vegetarianism is great for everybody. I do, and I couldn't be happier. However, I think alteration of diet is just one facet of an overall change of ideology; a paradigm shift. If we can all, and I mean all, truly devalue the tenets of speciesism and internalize a distaste for those tenets, the fallout will be enormously beneficial.

Many folks, with sound reason, see this as a two-sided debate - with meat-eaters on one side and veggies on the opposing side. I prefer to think that we're all headed in the same direction, and it just so happens that some of us are a little closer to the ideal than others.

Just as with any race, there are those at the front who have the choice of inspiring those behind them to catch up, or they can be vindictive and arrogant, as they speed towards a finish line that does not exist. There are those in the middle, who at times find themselves complacent, not believing in the possiblity of getting ahead, yet knowing they don't have to try too hard to not be last. Finally, we have those "flower-pickers" pulling up the caboose. Many of them have no interest in winning said race even if they have the ability. Instead of ridiculing them or getting overly frustrated with them, we must be advocates for the impetus of the race in the first place. We must help them to see, as many of us have, that the place that we're headed - a more humane, sustainable, natural, healthy world - is ideologically beautiful and pragmatically meaningful.

As a teacher, I'm very much focused on helping my kiddos see the beauty in the process, not necessarily the product, of their work. I see striving towards a more humane view of animals and of our earth is no different: it's the journey that counts.

All that said, the health factor and the environmental factors are a totally different issue. I have not the slightest understanding of the argument against vegetarianism within these two realms. Anyone?

You got it! Speciesism is the key to this issue. I knew about it. Most of the people think about animals just like people used to think about black slaves. I mean: just trhee hundred years ago, apparently decent, good people, nice with their children and the neighborhood, owned black people to farm for them. They looked like nice people, but they had human slaves working for them. These white assholes were not able to see the evilness within that, just couldn't. Their education was like a wall between the facts and their common sense.

Speciesism works the same way, and will fall the same way (I hope).

My people have had to kill and eat animals to survive so I dont think we are evil. We use the blubber throughout the winter, we use the fur for warmth and we use every part of the whales, seals or fox.
Since I have become a veggie I have tried to unite my feelings but because I now believe the cells of all things influence each other I think this is why some people go to the next spiritual level and others dont.
I think the gaia consciousness knows the intent and if people need to eat meat maybe they are excused by the great spirit, either way they are not evil.

Yes, from the ice to the table and consumed throughout a winter to keep a family alive. How is that evil?

I do not think those who choose to consume animals are "evil". My definition of a truly evil person would be Hitler or Stalin. Most people try to get along the best way they can. I still struggle every day with my choices and try to live the best I can. I know one choice I might make will have effects on others including other species. I have tried to share my opinions with others but often am seen as on the fringe or a little loopy. I abhore dairy and especially milk and have told my opinions to others. The dairy industry is very savvy at making people believe you need to drink milk to be healthy, just think of those milk mustache ads. But it's all a crock. But when I tell friends this their eyes glaze over because they've only been told the opposite and it is what they believe. And when I go the route of how animals suffer for our consumption needs, they, for the most part, totally tune out. I've come to the conclusion that people really need to want to seek it out for themselves. So, if someone asks my opinion I will give it. But I live my life and hope my example, one of health and vitality and happiness, will suffice. People, for the most part, are not evil. They are uneducated or led astray by economic interests of others or by tradition. It is the suffering of animals that I do not want to see not so much the consumption. Although I have no desire to eat meat as I have never enjoyed it.

@Sarrah: Are you from Senegal, or something? We are talking here about non poor Western families.

"My definition of a truly evil person would be Hitler or Stalin". Animals are going through a everyday hidden holocaust. "People, for the most part, are not evil. They are uneducated...". But I told them what's going on, they now know it.

Thats a pretty racist and ignorant thing to say to a person alvaro. I am actually western but guess what? There are different kinds of cultures in the west too.
If you only want a solution that includes "non poor western families" then its no solution at all. Jeez.

You don't understand at all what I'm trying to say, and since English is not my native language and I am not able to write my thoughts down properly, I'll just stop posting in this thread.

I hope somebody out there got the point.

There have been some good points added to a very important conversation. I guess I wanted to clarify one thing really quick; an oversight in my earlier post.

While my post sounded universal, I was approaching it from the standpoint of one who, for health, economic, and cultural reasons, isn't tied closely to eating meat as a necessity. I speak more of the person who chooses outright, without much thought, the unnecessary consumption of flesh, regardless of the options for a healthy, economically viable, and culturally sound diet without meat.

Sorry, I didn't mean to disrespect anyone's cultural values or presume that everyone out there has the choice and the resources to go veg without consequences. I think it is valuable for all of us to be cognizant of our diets and the way those diets affect the ecosystem around us, as well as our personal lives. Cheers.

Vegetarianism is NOT a religion. People can eat whatever the heck they want and no one is evil because they do or do not eat meat. I'm sorry to break it to you, but we were meant to eat a steady diet of meat and plant matter. Even chimps (one of our closest cousins) eat meat every now and then. Humans have the ability to choose what they put into their bodies and eating meat or not eating meat is just that; a choice. Your "point" is nothing but racism, ignorance, arrogance, and close-mindedness. There are ways of caring for live stock without "torture" as some have put it and I have seen farms where animals are cared for and slaughtered humanely. The only real torture that any of us should really focus on is the torture we put ourselves and our peers through. Be kind to eat other, accept the fact that not everyone is going to believe what you do, help each other however you can.

All i am saying is that some people HAVE to eat meat. As someone who has moved from my peoples home to actually living in a city I now choose NOT to eat meat BUT my grandmother is not evil for living the life she grew in. The children in northern canada who have to live on fish and seal meat in winter are NOt evil either.
even if your english is not first language (like me) you still tried to dismiss people who don't have a choice because they are poor.

this is interesting.. it's called "The Anatomy of Eating."
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2...

I will never date a red meat eater.

I have been a variety of Vegetarians from too many noddles to rawfood for a long time. Although,I do not agree with animal cruelty that is not my platform issue for not eating. I do not wish to degrade another person for the food decisions they make regardless of the possible harm. We are right to consider the climates that have little vegetation and call for milk drinking (whale) or meat-eating (seal) consumation for survival. The joyful eating of vegetables and fruits, the more influence will well have in our community. The harsh judgement like you meat-eaters suck does not work. It only creates the impression of the crazy intolerant, self-righteous non meat-eaters. This will esure that others will not look into our way of cooking or not cooking.

The entire notion of "evil" is completely melodramatic and absurd. I'm a vegetarian, and have been (with a few exceptions) for 22 years. I CHOOSE not to eat meat because I'm fortunate enough to have the LUXURY to make that choice based on the OPPORTUNITY I've had to learn about what really happens farm-to-table in America (I'm less knowledgeable about livestock "processing" in other countries, though I have seen 'Our Daily Bread' which, I think, was filmed in Germany). And, because I can AFFORD to make those CHOICES.

And, like Mo mentioned above, many vegetables don't make it to the dinner table without some extreme costs along the way--in pay and treatment for workers, fossil fuel usage, harmful pesticides, etc. Also, if you believe that no animals ever die (who live in the fields) when your vegetables are harvested, you're choosing to be ignorant/uninformed.

Unless you're living a completely austere lifestyle where you're planting your own heirloom seeds, harvesting the yield manually, etc., you have no room to call someone "evil". And, even if you were, well, if you called someone "evil" for making different choices than you, I'd still think you were being--at best--willfully ignorant.

We all have different lifestyles and make different choices about our needs versus our "need" for convenience. The best we can do is to be informed about the TRUE cost of our food--be it animal or vegetable, and try to live as lightly as possible on the earth within our realm of influence.

I'm sure the Senegalese you (Alvaro) mentioned with racist derision aren't using the volume of fossil fuels you do as a Spaniard. Does that make you "evil"?

"slaughtered humanely" - Isn't that an oxymoron? I used to volunteer weekly at the Humane Society and after our shift, a group of us would go to a bar & grill that sold all kinds of burgers and buffalo and game-type meats. We would sit down and eat this stuff and then wonder aloud at the irony of helping animals and then turning around and eating this stuff. I finally reached a point in my life when I could no longer reconcile eating meat (or dairy), while still holding on to my views on animal cruelty.

I don't think anyone eating meat is "evil," even after having heated debates with them on the subject. I think that it is a difficult concept for many people of the "meat & potatoes" ideology to grasp. Vegetarianism & veganism is something that is slowly evolving in our Western civilization, but I think it is becoming more and more acceptable. My entire family thinks I'm nuts and keeps asking if I'm "finished yet" with veganism. My sister says, "You can't eat ranch? That sucks!" It doesn't dawn on them that it's not that I can't, it's that I choose not to.

As has been said by others, many people choose to go through life without knowing, without thinking about things that are uncomfortable. Like the filthy and inhumane circumstances that their dinner experiences before it arrives on their plates. I was one of them before my eyes were finally opened. Sometimes I crave a piece of bacon, but thinking about that pig who's story I read makes me want to vomit.

Someone made the comparison to Hitler - interestingly, it is a similar phenomenon which allowed so many Germans and other Europeans to sit by and allow the extermination of the Jews. It's ironically a bit of "herd" mentality. And I certainly don't mean to downplay the suffering of humans, but I do believe that animals suffer the same fear and pain as we do, so it is, to me, an interesting parallel.

I delight in the fact that we(Egrrin and I) have being meat free for about the same time. I too agree with the idea that the cost of eating some of our vegetables are hight for the impact the travel and chemicals have on our health, the harm that can happen when they have to travel from a great distance and the cost to the earth. Thanks for the insight. I will keep that in mind when thinking more about my footprint.

Colleen, I understand precisely what you mean! My roommate and I both work at a dog rescue, and I am vegetarian, while she is not, and not at all interested in it. For me, there is too much cognitive dissonance in working at a no-kill shelter, thus seeming to indicate that I am morally opposed to killing dogs, then turning around and eating a cow. Who made the value judgment that dogs were so much more valuable? For me, it was my pet that really turned me around. I was having recurring dreams (the only recurring dream I've ever had!) that I had to watch animals being slaughtered. When I woke up, my dog would be there, on my bed, and I had the horrible thought of someone trying to kill him. After that I couldn't continue in my omnivorous lifestyle anymore. But, obviously, not everyone makes that kind of connection!

Colleen - Bravo, so well said. You offer a great perspective and also so succinctly noted a few things I personally feel also. Fortunately through this first year of being a vegetarian I haven't had to do much explaining. I live in a geographically desirable place for vegetarians and have another family member who has forged the path. So thank you for helping me prepare for the inevitable discussion(s) to come. I agree that "evil" is the wrong word; I love the way you call it "herd mentality". Nail...head.

Here is a thought on the evil part.

Happy Thanksgiving.

I've been a veg head for 15 years and agree that it's easy and a luxury living in the U.S. I also agree that it's unhealthy to look down on people who eat meat (though of course it's an instant bond when you find other vegetarians! And it does gross me out to see my little nieces and nephews being fed hot dogs...but I digress).

I used to live in a progressive small town in Colorado where everyone was self-righteous about their cause. I was a vegetarian, but my carniverous boss looked down on me because I drove a car to work but he rode a bike. Another gal thought people who didn't compost were evil. A whole group thought it was evil to mow down dandelions in your yard. Everyone was on a soapbox and I finally realized that everyone just has to do their best for themselves and the planet and relax a little on judging others, because we could ALL be doing more!

And on the subject of "evil," I'm reading Gregory Maguire's book "Wicked: The life and times of the Wicked Witch of the West," which is an interesting spin on what constitutes evil, etc. The Wicked Witch of Oz fame becomes active in Animal rights (they do talk and even teach in universities, so it seems like a no-brainer) and drops out of school to become a radical and a vegetarian. I can't wait to see how this pans out!

oh wow!! ahhh u guys all write so much

Okay so basically Ive been a vegetarian my entire life :] so yeah...I just think that meat- eaters are not all evil (some are but..) Like my friend she has to eat meat becuz of her parents ...they would only let her b a vegetarian when she turns 18 :[ pretty sad....

I just really hope that more and more ppls can start to understand that eating meat is so bad...I mean especially the country's eating practically any animal and any animal's body parts, we should b a little more thankful to live the US

this is pretty sad if u dont want to read it just stop here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its sad..but i wanna share
----------------------------------------------------
In china,(even though i never been there) I heard that they eat dogs :( and when they had the olympic a few months ago like u know last year, I saw this girl holding a stick and it was a snake literally eating it !! and ppls eat cockroach and ants...bugs ..ugh its just wroong n disgusting :[ and in sum other country they eat Monkeys brain!!!!! monkeys.... *sigh*

Great topic & great discussion. For my two cents (I'm vegan), it was when the concept of speciesism dawned on me, that I made the change. I kept looking at my kitty-cat, and wondering why I was nice to her, and then I would (indirectly) sentence other living beings to death. It seemed (and is) so wrong. I also live by the mottos, "do unto others..." and "do no harm". It is important, absolutely vital that we realize that their (the animals, birds, fish, etc, etc) lives are just as important to them as ours are to us.

I truly believe that one day, the human race will no longer kill/eat/wear the other lifeforms that we are blessed to share this planet with & that we will look back in shame and bewilderment that we ever did these things...

Rai

"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals.” ~ Immanual Kant


"All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life."
-Buddha

!!!!! ahh thats so true, but I wonder how long it would take until no one would kill, eat or wear animals........(just wondering what religion r u ?)

I wish it would happen yesterday! But, it will probably take some time, but I am heartened because we have overcome slavery, women have the right to vote, we stand up for the rights of children, and the rights of animals are being increasingly recognized & protected. We are on the right path, and we WILL get there... :)

I respect many religions/faiths/philosophies, my background has no bearing on my choices, just as long as you do no harm to others, you are A-OK in my books :)

I was raised in a meat-eating/animal wearing situation and when I made the choice to become veggie, I knew absolutely no one else who was veggie & my choice was met with resistance, hostility and indifference for the most part. It didn't matter to me, nothing would ever change my mind, because I had awakened. I read a pamphlet from Farm Sanctuary (a wonderful organization) that said if you have no one in your social circle that was veggie to get out & meet others who are, strength in numbers, you know. Good advice!

Rai

"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends.” ~ George Bernard Shaw

I first want to thank all of you for your comments and Alvaro for posing the question. It is very important to discuss these things as to create a personal philosophy. We all have our opinions about vegetarianism and what it means to be a vegetarian. I, too, have asked similar questions and hoped that people changed the way they see food, animals, and cruelty. However, I will not answer the question of whether meat eaters are evil. What we can learn from meat eaters by deciding if they are evil is not as important as what we can learn about ourselves by not eating meat.

What I mean is, if we decide that meat eaters are evil, are we systematically defining ourselves (vegetarians) as not evil? As someone already mentioned, are those among us who eat eggs and drink milk more evil than vegans and less evil than meat eaters?

We have to realized that though we feel we have had an enlightening moment that led us to give up meat, we are not in fact superior or more righteous than meat eaters. There are some meat eaters that have brought so much to the world, MLK, JFK, and so many others. On the flipside, there are some vegetarians who I am sure are destined to spread havoc on the world, theoretically.

We should focus on making ourselves examples of what we believe the world should be. I believe the most revolutionary thing a person can do is be a decent person. We should lead by example and not busy ourselves with what we perceive as short-comings or "evilness" of meat eaters.

While deleting my post because I failed to edit it before I posted it, I mistakenly deleted two posts. One by Emily and one by Rai.

Please forgive the mistake. I have reposted their posts below.


message by Emily ♥ monkeys
1836394 wow i practically admire u now...ur so strong to make a choice like that when ur the only one !!! its a great choice and be strong in continuing being a vegetarian! If u ever need advice on things u can ask me since ive been a veggie my entire life so yah...:p heres are sites dor easy piecy recipes http://www.theveggietable.com/recipes... http://www.exploreveg.org/resources/r... and heres a site i think u would know of but if u dont then u should go check it out ! http://www.peta2.com/ or http://www.peta.org/ 02/07/2009 02:58PM



reply to this post
message by Rai
1604185 Thanks so much Emily!! I always enjoy finding new recipes :) Peta is great - they are wonderful warriors for animal rights, and they have a great cookbook, too - the Compassionate Cook, I think that's what it's called. I envy you & admire you for being a veggie your whole life, I sure wish I was, but at least I am now and have been for several years :) Rai "Be the change that you wish to see in the world." — Mahatma Gandhi

haahah its ok Billione

I think if people killed their own animals for food, the consumption would decrease of the strength that people would then see the process of bringing meat to the table, versus it magically appearing on a shelf in the supermarket. However, i don't think it would lead to more animals roaming the earth. The only reason so many animals that people eat exist on the planet is because they breed so many for consumption.

We all should read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn. His novel talks about how it is anti-diversity to stock pile food in large numbers for consumption.

It's been a while since I read Ishmael An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit, but I remember it was pushing a lot of wisdom. I definitely enjoyed it the first time around, and I'm up for reading it again.

silverstream/The RP freak wrote: "I've never heard of the book. IT sounds nice and I think i'll try it."

It is an amazing book to me. It is about a telepathic gorilla who takes a man on an intellectual journey that will hopefully, one-day lead to making the world better. That is just a fraction of it. What I learned was that the world did not just appear as flawed/broken as it is; there are stories enacted by humans that created what the world had become and it is up to us to change it, before it is too late.

I love this question, but I feel my answer isn't really fair as I do not believe humans have the capacity to be evil. I think everyone simply lives by what they believe to be moral. Society tells us that violence towards animals is acceptable, as long as they aren't domestic. Who decided which animals' lives are more valuable than others? I think people choose to be blind of slaughter houses so they can continue living "morally" without making any sacrifices.

I don't love this question - it's incredibly judgemental and is the sort of veggie/vegan supercilious attitude that alienates meat-eaters, closing their minds to the possibility of giving up meat.

People who eat meat are following a long tradition of doing so; we veggie/vegans are in the minority and so it is "normal" to eat meat. It's far better (IMO) to set a quiet example and talk to people about dietary and ethical choices in a calm manner than to brand those who do not happen to share your views as "evil".

I agree completely with Michael.

I think "evil", when we consider in the context of world events and history, is not the right terminology to use in most of today's debates.

So many discussions descend into chaos when one side accuses the other of being "evil"!

Your comment is ridiculous! Of course people who eat meat are not evil! Please go look in your mirror before you throw rocks from your glass house.

deleted user wrote: "Hi, Spanish vegetarian here.

This is something that is going through my mind lately. I'm a little bit confused on this subject, so I'd appreciate some opinions. The question is:

ARE THEY EVIL?

O..."

There is a psychological difference, though. Because meat (and dairy) eating are not only expected and seen as normal, but encouraged, and because veg*ns are often vilified, people who are otherwise good people will eat meat and dairy. In the US, rape is considered legally a crime (though socially it runs the gamut from "she deserved it" to "kill the rapist"), and therefore good people don't do it. It is not sanctioned by society. Although I found a lot of her book to be problematic, Melanie Joy's "Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows" delves into this concept. She calls it carnism. It might be worth a read for you!

And for what it's worth, I think your question is valid. What humans do to animals IS evil, though, like I said, I don't think that means the people themselves are necessarily evil.

Ginger wrote: "Your comment is ridiculous! Of course people who eat meat are not evil! Please go look in your mirror before you throw rocks from your glass house."

I can understand his question completely, because this is not stealing a teacup from a china store; this is deliberately raising, raping, torturing and consuming other sentient beings -- it's a tough question. Ask it about Nazis - are Nazis evil - and the first response will frequently be an unrepentant "yes." Same difference.

Noël wrote: "Vegetarianism is NOT a religion. People can eat whatever the heck they want and no one is evil because they do or do not eat meat. I'm sorry to break it to you, but we were meant to eat a steady ..."

So it's okay to torture, rape, and murder someone for a religion? If a man decides to rape a child, that's his choice. So it's not wrong? If one country can overpower another and force its human inhabitants to become slaves, whom they will rape and murder as they please, that is also a choice -- but isn't that also wrong?

http://freefromharm.org/food-and-psyc...

Oh, dear, Wendy - you used the Nazis as an argument and so you automatically lose the debate.

Also, comparing people who eat meat to rapists and murderers?! You are a stern judge of your fellows, Wendy.

Well said, Wendy!

@Michael: And I'm not sure how Wendy loses any ground by bringing up a very legitimate question! Instead, how about trying to see the connection she's making? If the very scary reality of holding billions of animals captive just for humans' benefit, completely disregarding their right to live freely and pain-free, simply because they're not of the same species doesn't make you think of the parallel between other atrocities committed by humans to favor the interests of the group they belong to, then the problem lies in your aversion to rationalize, not in her analogies.

And instead of making ad hominem attacks on Wendy, how about offering an explanation of how and why you disagree? Also, did you even read the link she posted?

I request you to read this before you respond:
"By analogy with racism and sexism, the term "speciesism" is a prejudice or attitude of bias in favor of the interests of members of one's own species and against those of members of other species. If a being suffers there can be no moral justification for refusing to take that suffering into consideration. No matter what the nature of the being, the principle of equality requires that one's suffering can be counted equally with the like suffering of any other being. Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when their is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. In each case, the pattern is identical."

Another intelligent photo to get people to see the parallel:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...

My objection is to the original question "Are they evil?". If you agree with that statement then you consign the vast majority of humanity to whatever hell you may believe in. By inference you, as a non-meat eater, must be "good" and presumably one of the Elect, empowered to pass judgement on the poor benighted souls still living in carnivorous darkness.

Good and evil are value judgements that will vary depending upon your cultural heritage, upbringing, education, etc. They are not absolutes that you can use to vilify vast swathes of humanity (IMO).

One reason for my own vegetarianism is that I see no reason to kill animals to maintain my own existence when there are alternatives that are less cruel and don't entail the suffering of animals. The Dalai Lama (last time I read his views on the subject) is not a vegetarian, but I wouldn't call him evil, would you?

The Nazi argument - I refer you to Godwin's Law.

From your own source (I'll underline and/or bold the parts that I think are most applicable to this discussion):
"Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Nazis. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect committing the fallacist's fallacy . Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

While falling foul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose their argument or credibility, Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate . Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by Glenn Greenwald."

Of course, people who perpetuate any of the -isms don't realize or are willing to see that they're being intolerant of other sex/race/species(as in this case), etc. and using such an analogy to facilitate them to make the connection is quite effective --if the audience is mature enough not to be defensive by default.

Now, while I believe that such questions and analogies are quite valid, I do understand human nature and realize that no one wants to be told they're bad, even if they are! So for the most effective discussion to affect change, I do believe such judgmental questions ought to be left out.