Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion

OK, I'm starting a spoiler-ok Icecapade thread. We've been a little lax in discussing this book (however briefly) on the general threads. It really can't be discussed in a spoiler-free environment, given how important the issue of crime/punishment/atonement is to it...

yay!! I am 'working' at the mo so am typing this ninja style ;-P . . . will be back at my lunch time to post a better ..um, post!

YAY, Icecapade thread! :D

I'll come back and post my Icecapade questions/thoughts later, I have to get a Dingo rant off my chest first....

Thanks ns!

so that appears to have been one heck of a long lunch break i took ;-D ... I really loved this book! there were lines and moments where my tummy lurched in a way that possibly only Jakes comments have had that effect on me before (and Perry, and Septimus)! I love the drunken phone calls on New Years Eve - that is definitely the silly kind of thing I could see myself doing! and Robbies reason for not answering them... but I want now is the cat(burglar) and mouse chase that happened leading up to the New Years Eve seduction. So bittersweet that it was Robbies parents death and the thought of xmas alone that galvanised him into taking action to see Noel again - loved his invention of the copy cat burglaries as a pretence to be there! just loved this book! nothing like honesty and ultimately their frank and open chat at the end was just beautiful - i loved how Noel put himself out there, and thank god Robbie met him on the ledge ;)

I liked that he made up the copy cat crimes too. The drunken phone calls were just awesome! I think it's something so many of us can relate to!

Both of them are just so sweet together. I love that Noel apologized and Robbie didn't hold grudges. And their touching in the dark... *melts* It is probably the most romantic M/M book I've ever read.

I know - Josh just seems to be able to fit so much emotional depth into short stories that other authors can't even match in a huge novel! I had so many :thud: moments :)

..... Trust me that is a good thing!

Barb, that's something I say about his writing all the time. I find myself comparing other works to his often. So often with short stories, the HEA is rushed, the characters have no depth and the writing is choppy. Josh manages to fit so much into such a small space. It's no wonder so many of us get hooked on his writing so easily.

Humour is also one of the things i love in his books - even subtle as it is at times it is ALWAYS there :) I am reading Strange Fortune now and I just chuckled at "Master Sticks and Stones", and the imagery is amazing - so tangible I swear I can smell the spices. Also his knack for making up lingo - some of the sayings I think I will adopt in my every day language LOL
"What, by the dust from the four corners, was that about?" ... if you had seen my house you would see why that tickles my funny bone :-P and there are a few from Darkling Thrush too!

I need to get my hand on Strange Fortune next month!

Anyway, if Josh is reading this... will there be sequel to Noel & Robbie? Pretty please?

Weren't the annual drunken phone calls irresistable? I found them utterly endearing, vulnerable and charming. It was impossible to resist Noel after that (and I had plenty of reason to).

This deft ability to get the reader to fall in love with his characters and in a few smooth strokes paint a lovely picture is so rare...it's really, really hard to do within the confines of a small story like this. I'm coining the adjective lanyonesque for it now. :).

And yes, the names -- Noel Snow (who's purer than the driven, eh?) and Robert Cuff (snort...). Had to laugh....

On the face of it, this is lighter fare than some of his other stories, notably Snowball. In many ways, it's the opposite of Snowball.

Where the protagonists are singularly heroic and tragic in Snowball, and have to overcome external and social obstacles that dog them, Icecapade was eventually all about internal moral questions for me (they have it good, but do they deserve it?).

I saw Noel as a seriously flawed person at the start -- morally, he's committed crimes which, however, he sees as victim-less (no violence perpretrated, after all, and the rich can afford to lose their baubles). And he's also seeing it through the lens of his childhood and family, where cat burglary is akin to sissified playing, and he's noble in avoiding the seriously objectionable crime profession that is hinted at and hangs like a dark shadow over him.

That didn't make it ok for me. it made it worse, actually. I'm personally in favor of austerity and personal penance and doing what's right (whether legal or otherwise). I could see a story ending in which he agreed to do a minimal sentence. Or lived simply, modestly, in a studio, working a night shift without the riches from his ill gotten gains, as he put it.

What's the point of punishment? What would it serve him going to jail, say? He's not going to commit further crimes. He's not a threat to society. He's rehabilitated. When people show remorse for their crimes, and repent sincerely, isn't there a universal human value that wants to forgive them?

Retribution is an intrinsic part of justice. People want an eye for an eye (but that's usually the victims). Most religions have something to say about it, for or against. But I don't see Noel repentant, and I feel he's not really had to suffer -- so where's the justice here?

And while thinking and wondering if I could bear to have Noel go to jail, I really came to a surprising discovery about my own thinking here. The only reason I didn't want him to suffer was that he finally found love with Robert. As did Robert (a truly innocent figure here). And I HATED the thought of separating them. I could not endure the thought of them not being together -- the punishment of being separated when you have that kind of love is far too great for the crime. If let's say this wasn't a love story and he didn't have Robert in his life, I would have no problem with him having to face the mistakes of his past and pay for them. And this despite the fact that I loved, loved, loved him. And Robert? So, so vulnerable and humbled and hurt and yet he's got this astonishing love for someone he should, by every rights, by god, hate hate hate. Robert was this secret, amazing wonderful black box to me and I still haven't gotten around to thinking about him fully. So I couldn't have them apart now. No Raskolnikovs here, moving on. :).

Such is love.

And it really didn't help to have Cary Grant in your head all the time, believe me...

and it was Xmas after all ;)

Barb wrote: "and it was Xmas after all ;)"

Exactly :).

And I HATED the thought of separating them. I could not endure the thought of them not being together -- the punishment of being separated when you have that kind of love is far too great for the crime. If let's say this wasn't a love story and he didn't have Robert in his life, I would have no problem with him having to face the mistakes of his past and pay for them. And this despite the fact that I loved, loved, loved him. And Robert? So, so vulnerable and humbled and hurt and yet he's got this astonishing love for someone he should, by every rights, by god, hate hate hate. Robert was this secret, amazing wonderful black box to me and I still haven't gotten around to thinking about him fully. So I couldn't have them apart now. No Raskolnikovs here, moving on. :).

My thought exactly. You said it beautifully!

ns wrote: "Barb wrote: "and it was Xmas after all ;)"

Exactly :)."

even the Xmas Angel at the end all clever clever writing

Cleon wrote: "My thought exactly. You said it beautifully!
"

Why, thank you, Cleon! :)

Yeah, I couldn't stand to have them separated either.

ns, you do a great job of putting your thoughts into words. Actually, you seem to be putting my thoughts into words! I have a really hard time expressing how I felt about a book in words, which is quite vexing considering how much I read!

Me too :( and then I just say "I loved that!" a bit tedious saying that after every book... But it is what it is !
They were never going to be separated though - Noel was quite persistent in my opinion , he knew there was something there and kept at it! Loved how he kissed Roberts hand all better :-)

Norma wrote: "Yeah, I couldn't stand to have them separated either"

:)

Norma wrote: "Thanks ns!"

Yes, thank you, NS. This is a story I totally forget about.

"What, by the dust from the four corners, was that about?" ... if you had seen my house you would see why that tickles my funny bone

Yes, it is painfully true of this corner of the universe too. :-D

Cleon wrote: "I need to get my hand on Strange Fortune next month!

Anyway, if Josh is reading this... will there be sequel to Noel & Robbie? Pretty please?"

It's a natural for a sequel -- a story about Noel being pressured to do one last heist -- so probably. Although I hasten to add I don't have immediate plans to write it. It's just that as I was writing I kept thinking...oh, what if...

Which usually leads to sequels.

Josh wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I need to get my hand on Strange Fortune next month!

Anyway, if Josh is reading this... will there be sequel to Noel & Robbie? Pretty please?"

It's a natural for a sequel -- a ..."

YaY!!! You know I love you, right? Not as much as I love Robbie, or Jake, or Adrien, or Septimus, but... well, you get the picture. ;-)

ns wrote: "I'm coining the adjective lanyonesque for it now. :).
..."

I should stop listening or I will DEFINITELY get a swelled head. :-D

But I'm very glad you're all enjoying this story.

I remember after it came out, someone pointed me to a discussion where some folks were debating whether the story was actually fanfic. I was floored -- and not particularly flattered.

Which wasn't completely fair because I don't have a problem with fandom. God knows I'm a nut on the topic of British crime shows from the 70s. :-)

But because I had never even seen the show (and still haven't, though it did come highly recced by a few people) and because there seemed to be so many similarities, this story lost favor with me for a time. I really didn't even want to hear about it.

Isn't that a weird thing? The creative impulse is a weird one.

Josh wrote: "ns wrote: "I'm coining the adjective lanyonesque for it now. :).
..."

I should stop listening or I will DEFINITELY get a swelled head. :-D

But I'm very glad you're all enjoying this story. ..."

Don't worry about it, Josh. There is NOTHING fanfic like in Icecapade.

Fanfic, even the one that is "naturalized" to create original fiction, will still read like a fanfic. The world building will be choppy, with many things missing.

When you write fanfic, the universe and characters are built for you. Your readers will have known the setting and the characters before they read your work. Most of them are already in love with the characters and setting.

In original story, your hardest task (for me) is introducing readers to your universe and make them like your characters.

This is why I abandon my attempt to "naturalize" my fanfics, though some of them are quite popular, it seems. It will never work.

Josh wrote: "I remember after it came out, someone pointed me to a discussion"

To be honest, I hadn't even heard of the term fanfic until a few weeks ago. Not seen it, no interest. I suppose I'm old school pure reader. I read every genre as a kid, mostly classics, mystery, thrillers, westerns, fantasy, sci-fi, you name it, I've read it.

I never read romance, so I am new to this.

But I think you might be well served to discard whatever comments might have led you to think less of this story. It's a gem, and it has depths, and it's one of my favorites and I'm pretty confident I could argue their asshattery under the table, not that I'd want to waste my time in that fashion.

So thank you for Icecapade. It's simply lovely, and meant a lot to me. I'd rather pay ten bucks for it than the swill that's sitting at the top of the best sellers right now. Where's the justice...

Josh wrote: I remember after it came out, someone pointed me to a discussion where some folks were debating whether the story was actually fanfic. I was floored -- and not particularly flattered.

I run a White Collar blog--and I know from that site, from private communications and from the coms on LJ that many White Collar fans adored this book and rec'd it. But I don't think it was a work of fan fiction! Robert and Noel are distinct characters, as is their storyline. It's just that die-hard Collars don't care whether we have to squint a little or a lot to see Peter and Neal, and so we'll devour any Fed and charming thief.

(And White Collar is derivative, like most (all?) stories are to some extent: it pays homage to To Catch a Thief and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and both versions of Ocean's Eleven and lots of other stuff.)

Meanwhile, I don't think the way some White Collar fans latched onto this book is a bad thing--and I'd guess that the majority of people who read it appreciated it for the characters and story in their own rights. Plus some fans (especially the slash fans) were already also fans of yours--but for those who had never read your stuff before, this book may have been a 'gateway drug.'

Edit: I see you responded to one of the posts about this on LJ! I don't think the person who rec'd the book there meant any harm, but I can understand why you'd be upset about the way it was done. (But I know people who bought the book because of that rec--and, like I said, they probably didn't stop there. Your writing is addictive!)

Another Edit: Oy--I'm making a mess of this, but I'm trying to say that the book is marvelous, and that if some people want to squint and read Peter and Neal into the text, it's just a happy coincidence. (I think you should get readers by any such coincidence, because you'll keep them due to the excellence of your writing.)

Josh wrote: "I remember after it came out, someone pointed me to a discussion where some folks were debating whether the story was actually fanfic. I was floored -- and not particularly flattered. "

HUH!
I read Icecapade before they started airing 'White Collar' (which I love) over here and I never even drew the comparison.
Still don't.

I can imagine you not being flattered by a debate like that.

I have TERRIBLE taste in TV and movies, so it's absolutely not a judgment of that. :-) I think it was more the idea that people thought I was ripping off a TV show for ideas. Even that sounds more harsh than I intend because we all get ideas for each other and from different sources, so being inspired by a TV show in itself shouldn't have been an issue.

It really did bother me, though. So much so that -- foolishly, as NS points out -- it affected my feelings for the story.

I know that's really stupid. So don't everyone feel obliged to tell me! :-D And I know that no offense was intended! If anything, it was probably a compliment.

J. makes an excellent post that for some readers it was their gateway to my stories, so that's certainly a positive.

I think if I was familiar with the show, was a fan of the show, it would probably have been different? Or would it have been worse? Not sure. Anyway, I do know that I was very stressed by the end of last year and so things that wouldn't normally have knocked me off balance where throwing me for a loop.

So it's good to see this story discussed as it allows me to view it without that bias.

Josh wrote: "It really did bother me, though. So much so that -- foolishly, as NS points out -- it affected my feelings for the story.

I know that's really stupid."

Hey now. I hope you know "foolish" and "stupid" are not words I'd use in conjuction with Josh Lanyon, under any circumstance, in any conversation, right? :)

I recently read Icecapade and agree with you all that it was a masterfully written story, with a lot packed in it, and despite the short story format the characterisation and emotional depth didn't suffer.
And there were many genuinely heart-warming moments that blended naturally into the narrative and didn't sound 'forced'. Even the episode with the baby llama was very endearing, for itself and in how it revealed Robert's feelings for Noel.
Like another poster said, I would love so much to read about their first sexual encounter on the eve of the Millennium and the events that led up to it...

I finished Icecapade yesterday. It was like a dessert at a 5-star restaurant (small, yet completely satisfying). I really liked both of the characters - Noel was (I feel) very realistic in how he, like many people in all walks of life, somewhat justified the negative choices in life that he'd made. I loved how Robert made up those cat burglar stories just to make Noel sweat (heh, I liked seeing him sweat too).

The sex scene was so tender. And I really loved the end of that scene... and this is going to sound a bit weird... but I loved the way it was worded: "Robert fucked him harder and faster and deeper until the moment seemed to stretch and stretch and grow timeless - unique and fragile as a snowflake against glass - and then Robert was coming, exquisite relief pulsing in satiny long jets." It sounded like so much more than just the messy exchange of bodily fluids... you really do have a way with words, Josh.

It was such a sweet story.

Josh wrote: "It's a natural for a sequel -- a story about Noel being pressured to do one last heist -- so probably. Although I hasten to add I don't have immediate plans to write it. It's just that as I was writing I kept thinking...oh, what if...

Which usually leads to sequels."

That would be great if you did end up writing a sequel to this story (or even a prequel, as a couple of people have already mentioned). :)

ns wrote: "I'm coining the adjective lanyonesque for it now"

LOL, that is an awesome term! (you should trademark it... Lanyonesque™ :D)

CK wrote: "I finished Icecapade yesterday. It was like a dessert at a 5-star restaurant (small, yet completely satisfying). I really liked both of the characters - Noel was (I feel) very realistic in how he..."

That is one of the things I really love about Josh's books, the way the he writes the sex scenes. So often in other books they are repetitive and boring and even sometimes crude and there are too many of them, but not in his books. They are necessary to forward the story, they are sweet and full of emotion and the language is usually very beautiful. And that makes them hot in my opinion :)

CK wrote: "I finished Icecapade yesterday. It was like a dessert at a 5-star restaurant (small, yet completely satisfying). I really liked both of the characters - Noel was (I feel) very realistic in how he..."

:-D

Thank you. I do think there's a potential for a brief story there.

I admit the number of people who bitch about novellas and novella-length stories have led to me cutting out a lot of ideas for sequels and so on. If there isn't enough there for a novel, and readers don't like novelettes, then there really isn't anywhere for me to go. That's kind of where that follow up is stuck.

Anne wrote: "That is one of the things I really love about Josh's books, the way the he writes the sex scenes. So often in other books they are repetitive and boring and even sometimes crude and there are too many of them, but not in his books. They are necessary to forward the story, they are sweet and full of emotion and the language is usually very beautiful. And that makes them hot in my opinion :)
..."

Thank you, Anne.

Kind of a funny thing -- I don't mind writing sex scenes, but hearing them read aloud is one of the MOST embarrassing things I can think of. Hearing audio books with those bits is just...fast forward time. :-D

Josh wrote: "I admit the number of people who bitch about novellas and novella-length stories have led to me cutting out a lot of ideas for sequels and so on. If there isn't enough there for a novel, and readers don't like novelettes, then there really isn't anywhere for me to go. That's kind of where that follow up is stuck. "

That's too bad that there's a lot of readers out there who don't like novellas (there are some stories that work much better when they're not unnecessarily drawn out).

(BTW, LMAO about listening to audio books with sex scenes - that'd be so awkward!)

Anne wrote:
That is one of the things I really love about Josh's books, the way the he writes the sex scenes. So often in other books they are repetitive and boring and even sometimes crude and there are too many of them, but not in his books. They are necessary to forward the story, they are sweet and full of emotion and the language is usually very beautiful. And that makes them hot in my opinion :)

I couldn't agree more, Anne.
And so well put :)
Each sex scene in Josh's books is poignant and relevant to the story and the characters.

CK wrote: "(BTW, LMAO about listening to audio books with sex scenes - that'd be so awkward!)
.."

Somehow it has the same effect as discovering your grandmother is reading your work.

Josh wrote: "CK wrote: "(BTW, LMAO about listening to audio books with sex scenes - that'd be so awkward!)
.."

Somehow it has the same effect as discovering your grandmother is reading your work."

NOT that such a thing ever happened. Thank you, Jesus.

Paola wrote: "Each sex scene in Josh's books is poignant and relevant to the story and the characters.
..."

Thank you! That's my basic criteria for including a sex scene.

I'm reading the story again and this time trying to understand every single corner of the story, but since I'm a native speaker of Japanese, some parts are forever left vague in cloud how hard I try. I wonder if some of you could help me and enable me to feel the story to its full extent.

Here is a scene: Noel and Robert went to the stable to fetch Christmas ornaments. Noel climbed up the ladder, then he lost the balance and fell down in Robert's hold.

- While in Robert's arms, Noel thinks; "If Robert would only..."
What kind of words do you think would follow the line?

- Just a bit after this line, Robert says; "What was that supposed to be?"
What would "that" refer to, the fall or the attempted kiss?

- Noel says, "If you don't know, one of us has a problem," and replies Robert "Tell me something I don't know."
I just can't figure this out. Is it a commonly used exchange? What's it like if being rephrased.

I'm truly grateful if I could receive some tips for the above questions.
Also, I'm sorry if this post is not appropriate to this thread. If so, please tell me, I'm going to move it right away. Thank you. (aka MrsMalone_emmie)

Gabbychan wrote: "I'm reading the story again and this time trying to understand every single corner of the story, but since I'm a native speaker of Japanese, some parts are forever left vague in cloud how hard I tr..."

It is probably Josh who should answer this, but I will try. But first, I find it very fascinating and also interesting to learn how different backgrounds lead to different understandings. To learn a language well one also need to learn the culture, the references unique to the country. I sometimes wonder what I lose when I read British and American books in English not knowing the culture in depth as a native would. ). And it took me years to understand that British and American English differs also because of the different cultures in the two countries, so that they don't always understand each other either.

So as a non-native English speaker trying to explain English phrases to another non-native speaker (with a different cultural background altogether than mine) I am probably likely to say something wrong :) But since I like to live dangerously, here it goes.

I think for your first question it would be: "If Robert would only kiss me".

The next: "That" refers to the kiss.

The last exchange is a common one and means that both parties know there are some things they should work out together. Robert says in other words, that he agrees with Noel, he has a problem.

Anne wrote: "It is probably Josh who should answer this, but I will try. .."

I dread rereading my work, so please feel free to jump in and explain. I can't even remember writing those lines. Let alone guessing what I must have meant. I really would have to go back and look at them in context.

I'm going to staunchly assume I had SOMETHING in mind, though. :-D

And yes, Anne, that looks correct to me! :-)