Iris Murdoch discussion

My niece was looking through my bookshelves recently and asked me about the shelf of Murdoch novels I have. I told her I like the books a lot though I hardly ever understand them. I'm kind of hoping that reading comments from others will enlighten me a little. I read for story and she does tell a damn good story. Do you suppose there might be a little cultural barrier? Not only are she and I different generations but also different culture, American vs. UK? Despite the similarities, the differences are in the details maybe? And she is all about the details.

Well, she is , best known for her novels about political and social questions of good and evil, sexual relationships, morality, and the power of the unconscious. I wouldn't agree about cultural barrier,she is a great storyteller but , what most important , a philosopher. Therefore, sometimes it is very hard to follow, her words and sentences are profound and I also have to repeat some passages all over again...But at the same time, some pages are so real and easy, as scenes from everyday life. I watched her interview once. She was a fascinating women with such imagination and ability to put all that on the paper, without getting lost in details and meaning.
My advice for you is to start with her first novel'' Under the net''.

Thanks Ivana. I remember liking Under the Net a lot the first time I read it, it seemed like the most accessible of her novels I had read so far. I'm looking forward to reading it again.

I would imagine anyone not steeped in Englishness would struggle to see the point of Murdoch's writing. As for the similarities between US and UK culture, I would venture that the two nations have a language in common and very little else...

Hmm. Interesting question. I tend to agree with Ivana. Also, I might add, don't make it harder than it needs to be. You enjoy the stories, so that's good right? You didn't say which novels you found most troublesome, and I haven't had the experience of feeling I didn't understand her work. Maybe you're expecting too much and delving too deep to find 'messages' which may or may not exist? I usually find there is a lot of metaphor and an over-riding sense that life is one vast muddle that we create ourselves through sometimes inadvertent fecklessness. That's my take, which may not be shared by others.

A number of posts ago someone suggested that those in this group who wished, select a novel to read and exchange comments etc. Sort of an on-line reading group. I thought it a great idea and put in my suggestion, but nothing ever came of it. Something like this might be of benefit. What do you think?

US vs. UK culture problem? Not for me, but then many of my favorite writers are Brits.

Saneseeker wrote: "I would imagine anyone not steeped in Englishness would struggle to see the point of Murdoch's writing. As for the similarities between US and UK culture, I would venture that the two nations have ..."

That's what I thought too, little in common outside of the language, and even that is pretty different. It feels like I'm missing the point sometimes because I'm not understanding why the character is behaving this way or making this choice in response to these life situations. The differences are not huge but I do think they are cultural. I understand an American woman's reaction to infidelity even when I totally disagree with her choice or think she's crazy for doing whatever she's chosen to do. But Murdoch's ladies? It's not an instinctual understanding, the narrative has to carry all the weight of explaining/revealing this person to me and what she is trying to say about herself and her life when she chooses to run away with this boy who is not her son. And then she's killed in the cross fire of a shoot out at the airport. Well, that's cool ... what just happened? "Sacred and Profane Love Machine"

Cindy wrote: "Saneseeker wrote: "I would imagine anyone not steeped in Englishness would struggle to see the point of Murdoch's writing. As for the similarities between US and UK culture, I would venture that th..."
When I first read Murdoch, her writing reminded me on other english author M. Drabble. They are both analysing and going into details about their actions etc..I am not English, I come from a very different background, but I find myself behaving almost the same when facing similar situations. I think it is mostly dependable on character and personality.

interesting...i think one of the amazing things about murdoch is that while her characters' vocabulary, style, mannerisms are british, their foibles, insecurities, desires, etc. are all very human and universal.

i'm american, and i've been able to relate to several of the characters. if anything i think it's the time period she writes in that forges the most distance between the books and me. she refers often to a phenomenon she seems to say is representative of some mid-century drift away from god/religion. i haven't read enough of her philosophy to know if the time period is much larger than that...perhaps she means in the 20th century...science replacing a turn-of-the-century period of religious revival? it seems the culture of the day, both popular and perhaps academic, was stepping away from a particular theological order and she's constantly wrestling with it via her characters.

obviously the concept is easy to comprehend, but sometimes there are pseudo-specific references to schools of thought think i might not be very familiar with.

regardless, i enjoy the feeling of reading about a time and place that's somewhat foreign to me, while also recognizing the broad reach of her questions about humanity.

Erica wrote: "interesting...i think one of the amazing things about murdoch is that while her characters' vocabulary, style, mannerisms are british, their foibles, insecurities, desires, etc. are all very human ..."

Yes, humanity first comes to my mind and it perfectly describes her work and ideas....

I came to know Dame Murdoch at college, I majored in English. The first novel I read by her is The Sandcastle and it was as if this book had cast a spell on me. I've been reading her ever since.

I am American yet find it easy to relate to Murdoch's writing and, especially, her characters. While I like her female character too, she creates great male characters that I often identify with. I've read at least 15 of her works, usually 1 a year.

I took a several year break, and now will choose from the used paperbacks I've accumulated: A Word Child, Nuns & Soldiers, Message To the Planet or Henry & Cato. Any input? Nuns and Word have the higher Goodreads ratings.

I'm reading Henry & Cato now. I've read the others and liked Message to the Planet best on this list.

As I read more and more of Murdoch's work, I think what I find difficult is that her people are so messy, and I don't like messy. I want my stories - and life - to be neat and orderly, and for the people to be nice to each other, and of course, life isn't like that and so why should the stories be either. Which is why I'm such and extreme introvert I imagine.

Enjoy the read.

Cindy wrote: "I'm reading Henry & Cato now. I've read the others and liked Message to the Planet best on this list.

As I read more and more of Murdoch's work, I think what I find difficult is that her people a..."

Thanks for the input, Cindy. And you're right, her heroes and heroines are flawed, and often not very nice, or at least are self-centered. I don't think of myself that way, yet, as I've said, I identify and relate to many of her characters. Hmm. I may have to reevaluate myself.

Well, is that self-centered, center of the universe way of thinking and behaving an aspect of the human condition? I know we all tell stories about our lives both to ourselves and to others as a way of making sense of things, and as the heroine/hero of our own stories we come out looking the best in any situation ...
What's really interesting is that Murdoch's people can't see or don't see or refuse to see outside the circle of themselves, like they live inside a closed space where they get to control what happens there and who gets to come in, and any consequences or ripple effects stop at the circle boundary. Isolation vs. connection, and we ignore connection at our peril? Or is it the peril of others? Because in all her stories people start getting hurt, even dying sometimes as a consequence of one's center-of-the-universe mentality. And yet they will persist in that selfishness, even when the character knows it will be harmful to self and/or to others.
My my -- I mostly read to find out what happens next. This is more fun. Thanks Brian

I haven't read Iris Murdoch work for some time now. I am ''juggling''with more than one book , which is not the best way to enyoy a particular one, at least not in my case.But what I like about her books , especially about her characters is that they constantly falling out of grace, despite good intentions. Sometimes it is funny, even though there is deeper meaning, more complexed .Somebody wrote , and maybe this is the best way to describe her writing intention '' On the surface, Iris Murdoch is manipulating the pretensions of middle-class life and revealing how easy it is to make a good man fool himself into disaster once his vanity is aroused....''

Cindy, I chose "Henry and Cato" because you are reading it now and we could discuss it later,but also because it had bigger print and I liked the title and cover.

Ivana, I really like the fall 'out of grace' term but I wonder who they fall out of grace with. A supreme being? I wouldn't think so. Society? Friends and associates? Your quote is also interesting as we have talked about her characters' self-centeredness, which is similar to when one has 'his vanity aroused."

I always find Murdoch's novels are so much more character based than plot based. She does of course tell a good story, take The Word Child for instance where the plot really seems to get going in the last few pages, however most of the novel details the thoughts and routines of Hilary Burde. The Sea, The Sea and The Sandcastle are similar in that respect, the time she spends really creating a character is wonderful.
I agree Under the Net is accessible but is think that's because contrary to her later novels, things are constantly happening. I'm reading The Book and the Brotherhood at the moment and that's refreshingly plot driven for Murdoch.

I agree with Cindy's observation. I've read many of her books, will eventually read all of them, remember them, think about them. But for me they are first deeply engrossing good stories with characters that inhabit my consciousness for days after finishing. But I'm often left wondering why, WHY someone was so self destructive, such as the women in The Word Child. I've wondered if it's a US/UK thing as well. However none of my UK friends are as big fans of I.M. as I am and can't answer me.

I'm even impressed by the situation in Jackson's Dilemna even though critics now say it revealed her dementia. I'd like to see that made into a movie with an actor as sympathetic as the deceased Alan Bates playing Jackson.

Brian wrote: "I am American yet find it easy to relate to Murdoch's writing and, especially, her characters. While I like her female character too, she creates great male characters that I often identify with. ..."

Sometimes it seems Iris wants to join the crew of (male) olde worlde writers who give women a condescending pat on the head and have little interest in girly silliness. Her female characters are often flimsy both in their character and the detail they are drawn in. Anyway, that's only sometimes