SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Spoilers maybe, but what are your first thoughts? I found it always a hard book to begin reading.

Dune is one of those stories that starts off slowly because it's setting up the characters and the political situation. My first time reading it, I found the first part a struggle but it really opened up after fifty pages.

The second time through, I found it far more enjoyable to pick up hints in the first bit of what was to come and see how things were being set up for the eventual pay off.

I first read Dune when I was in my mid-teens, and remember being immediately caught up in the story -- the Padishah Imperium, the Bene Gesserit, the Sardaukar and Fremen. Since Tolkien, I've always been a sucker for epic tales with elaborate, if largely undisclosed backgrounds. The minimal appendices was (is) the most well thumbed section of my copy.

Some scenes still stand out in my memory (albeit, aided by several rereadings since then):

Paul and Gurney sparring on that last day on Caladan. ("`Mood?' Halleck's voice betrayed his outrage even through the shield's filtering. `What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises -- no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.'")

Any scene with Vladimir Harkonnen.

Paul's first experience with spice-induced prescience.

Paul's first ride on a sandworm.

The storming of the Shield Wall and the final confrontation between the Shaddam and Maud'Dib.

And, of course, Jessica's final, immortal comment on all that's gone before: "While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine -- history will call us wives."

I've read Dune a few times, not recently though. And I've forgotten much of it. I first read it in the early 80s and then again in the early 90s. I'm due for a re-read, but I'm not sure I'll be able to squeeze it in this month. :)

I do remember that it was my first and favorite SF book. And still is for all intents and purposes.

I tried to read it for this month's discussion. But, I just couldn't get past the first few chapters. I've read it two or three times in the past and it is such a significant book. I think I've just read it too many times.

There is so much I remember and love about the book. Hopefully, I'll remember enough to participate.

this is my second time through but I'm bad w/ details. I feel like it's not a big analysis type book but it has a complex storyline and great imagery. during high school I had one geekish/cool friend who carried around this thick paperback, Dune. she swore by the book. I didn't read it until years later (partly due to my memory of her utter devotion (hah, she was swept up by the legend too!). sorry but I have to mention the David Lynch movie (I think that's the vers. I saw). this was a case where I liked the book better than the movie. I felt the book's imagery was more fantastical (hah, that's my own word) than the film's visuals (somehow I imagined the eyes differently I guess).

I found it dense at the beginning as well. All that spiritual stuff and the prince being the one and all. Seemed dragged out. Once they got into the explanation of the water recycling units I started to get into it. I remember at the time they reminded me of the new technology to make air in scuba last longer so divers can stay underwater for greater periods of time. I think they squeeze every ounce of oxygen out of it or something. Or possibly recycle the exhaust. I think they call the units rebreathers or something. The two technologies seemed like the same sort of thing, and I admired Herbert for that.

Not a lot of discussion going on for Dune. The discussion leader appears to be MIA for now which probably accounts for most of it. Did anyone actually read it for this month or is everyone, like me, just depending on their memory of the last time they read it? And where are the 23 people who voted for Dune?

I first read it in my teens & several times since then. I was impressed by the world that Herbert made. So medieval, yet futuristic. Far out technology, new planets, PSI powers, self-evolution - yet they use knives & personal combat. Everything's changed, but nothing's changed about man's nature. I'd read "MacBeth" for the first time shortly before reading this. The parallels were fascinating.

It's always been a real milestone for me - it was the first time I rebelled against the system on their terms & won. I did a book report on it & the teacher actually discussed my report with me before finalizing the grade on it. He couldn't believe I dared compare a 'mere science fiction, space fantasy' with a 'Classic By The Bard'. He gave me an 'A' on the report, though. It was a stuck-up, eastern prep school, so his attitude wasn't unusual or unexpected - 'Gentlemen do not read trash like SF', was close to a written rule. Herbert came through for me, though.

I also first read this as a teenager, and this and Childhood's End started me off on my love for science fiction. Never read Childhood's End again, but Dune, most definitely, the last time being 5 years ago.

The first time the first chapters were difficult, because you don't know what the hell is going on. Bene Gesserit? Wha???? But it soon starts clicking all together.

I love this book, and it still makes it into my top 10.

I'm not quite done it yet, but I found it pretty slow on the uptake.

The one thing that really irritates me is that I can't imagine any of the technology. There is very little in description at the first mention of most of the machinery. While I am a big fan of "show not tell", it was hard to really imagine stuff.

I do find it pretty interesting, and I am enjoying it. The story seems to get increasingly rich as it goes on. I'm glad that I picked it up.

I am about to get started on this book! Can't wait. I am not sure if there is a discussion leader this month so we may have to post some discussions for the book!

Still waiting for my copy to come in to the library, looking forward to getting started.

I never found Dune to be that hard a read, but it was the only book in the series I enjoyed and read fully.

I'm not a huge fan of fictional political situations (in Sci Fi or otherwise). Now that I'm well past high school, the series does warrent a second read - or perhaps a listen ... in audiobook format.

I first read this book on a family vacation in 1981. I had heard so much about it in high school, I often felt left out of the conversations. I remember OMNI magazine had a section of illustrations from the books and I became curious.

I purchased a copy at our local bookstore and made my way to Carmel beach to read the first few pages.
I liked the book from the very begining. So much detail about the political and enviromental backgrounds of the characters.
I could have kicked myself for not purchasing the sequals. Once we started the vacation, I had to limit myself to one chapter a day, otherwise I would have rushed through it.

A few months later in college, I had to make an oral presentation in my freshman English class. We had to speak about recent books we had read.

I made the arguement that Paul Atriedes was a version of Jesus. The savior sent to deliver his people from bondage. etc etc etc

Reading all the posts here, makes me want to pick it up again.

Unfortunately the later sequals written by Frank Herbert's son are far from the original quality of the original novels

I was completely in love with the entire first book. It was the later books that really fell off the wagon for me.

Ditto on the later Dune books.

When I first saw "Dune Messiah" come out, I was thrilled & snatched it off the rack. After reading it, I was less than happy with it. I bought "Children of Dune" new (hoping!) & still wasn't happy. I got a used copy of "God Emperor" but never could get into it.

When recommending the book, which I've done a lot, I recommend "Dune" only. It is a great stand-alone novel.

When people say the "later" books aren't as good, is that immediately starting with book #2?

"When people say the "later" books aren't as good, is that immediately starting with book #2?"

Pretty much.

Very little of what made 'Dune' so compelling is to be found in the later works. There is little or none of the complex, tender, relationships between characters that mark the first book. There isn't much action. And by that I don't merely mean that there isn't much fighting; I mean not much happens. The characters become increasingly alien, inscrutible, and hard to care for. Mostly I think Herbert starts to take himself too seriously. He gets caught up in his own trompe-l'œil and mistakes an image of something for the thing itself. The results were much diminished from the original broadly satisfying book. A few people like them for what they are, but there just isn't as much to like in my opinion.

I think the later books ARE as good. My favorite in the series is God Emperor. (In fact, I would say that's my favorite science fiction book.)

A month ago, I would have said that the first four books are awesome and the last two are mediocre. But I've decided to read the last two books in the series by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson. I read the first four books of the original series last summer and stopped there. But now, to prepare myself for Hunters and Sandworms, I figured I should re-read the last two books. So I'm reading Heretics now. And I am really impressed by it. I've read it twice, but this time I'm really enjoying it.

I dug the hell out of the first 100 pages. Dune is as rich a sci-fi book as I've ever read. I was a little worried delving into it because I am very familiar with the movie, and I've always found that reading a book after seeing the movie makes it less enjoyable. You transpose too many of the movie characters' faces onto those in the book. Dune might be the one exception. First, David Lynch tried very hard to stay true to the book. Secondly, all those phrases and names that most people seem to be getting hung up on are elements that I recognize from the movie. It makes it easier for me to identify religions, sects, people, etc. So far, I'm diggin' it.

I read somewhere the Lynch tried to stay true to the book when he started making the movie, but eventually just gave in when production costs started to get too high.

The movie turned into a campy version of the book.
Who can forget those nauseating scenes where we actually get to hear what the characters are thinking?

The part that made me wince the most, was during the riding of the Sandworms; it reminded me of the fake surfing scenes from all those "beach pictures" with Frankie and Annette.

Lynch never tried to stay true to the book. That's just something he says to get the fans off his back. Many of the changes he made to the script were more expensive than shooting the book as written.

What made me wince most was his interpretation of 'the voice'.

I can forgive less than realistic looking sandworms. I can't forgive bad overdubbing, and the unnecessary invention of his 'sonic weapons'.

I had tried to read Dune Messiah as a teen and didn't get it or enjoy it. My friend's opinion was - just skip it all that happens is that Paul goes off the deep end and dies! I reread it a couple of years ago. It is (IMHO) the best in the series. A real explanation of what it would be like to become a real living GOD with full knowledge of past/present/future but not being able to come to grips with it. People revered him and created a religion around him - but - he no longer wanted it. A sad and interesting book. It was interesting to reread Herbert's book and find that I was wrong or previously unable to realize the value of his writing.

I'm 100 pages in, so I'll give my first impression - I think it's interesting that the little excerpts that head each chapter give away some plot points. Obviously it was the author's intention that we know from the start who dies and who the murderer was, does anyone know why? Obviously I'm reading them differently than if I didn't know, so maybe that's why.

Sometime in the mid 80's someone put out a Dune encylopedia. Im not sure if it was authorized by Frank Herbert or not, but it made for some interesting reading and it filled in a lot of gaps in Dune terminology and history.

Someone obviously had too much time on their hands, but they managed to record the entire 10,000 year history of humankind from Earth all the way until Emperor Leto's reign.

They even broke down each emperor's reign on the throne.

I remember extensive background and explanation about:
Butlerian Jihad.
Orange Catholic Bible
Stillsuit Function
Guild Spaceline Navigation
Ranking in the Landsrad
CHOAM membership requirements
biology of the Sandwarms of Arakis
manufacturing on IX
the nature of Eratz wood sculpture
the function of glowglobes
Brief biography on all the Duncan Idahos
History of the Sisterhood
Internal drive system of the Orinthopter
The nature of space travel before spice
Space navigator training and evolution
The use and production of Gholas
water reclaimation on Arakis

I think I still have the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA.. lol

Another first impression - the narration shifts between characters very swiftly and without much warning. It's not confusing, but I have to read with a more discerning eye than I usually do.

Brooke, I think that the giving away of plot points may be to, well, 'echo' the premonitions that Paul has.

Or maybe it's just to help a bewildered reader? :)

As for the Lynch film mentioned, I heard that it was massively editted , to the point of making no sense at all, as it was 3 hours instead of 2. And as for the terrible voice over - I wonder if that was like Bladerunner, where the movie execs insisted on one to explain what was going on?

(Harrison Ford has said that he did it as woodenly as possible so that they'd not use it - they did, of course. Thank God for the Directors cut)

Anyway, I love the visual style of the Lynch film (there's your steam-punk), it's just a shame that it's had more holes editted in it than swiss cheese.

Did you guy's like
Princess Irulan's historical commentaries at the top of the chapters?

I generally liked them, but they had a sense of having been written in the past tense, which made you realize that Paul must have triumphed, otherwise why would he merrit these interjections?

Well, I'm about halfway through now. I read this about fifteen years ago and found it good, but not great. I really like it on the 2nd take. There's definitely stuff there that I didn't see the first time.

I'm not a big fan of the princess's interjections, but they do dish out morsels about imperial society. I guess they are more flavorful and less clogging than mixing more exposition into the narrative would be.

I'm about 150 pages into Dune, I'm finding it interesting but not compelling at this point. I hate having to stop reading to look up vocabulary.

I've read about 120 pages now. The first 30 or so pages where quite hard, but suddenly I realized that I can't wait to read some more. So got drawn into it.. The only thing that bothers me is the feeling of hopelessness. How can the main characters ever make it?

On of the things I liked is the very fact THAT EVERYTHING SEEMED WEIGHTED AGAINST THE CHARACTERS. I hate novels that the characters are carried along by events and made into a super hero in spite of them selves.

The fact that Jessica and the Duke (though he is gone early) and Paul had done extensive preparations before coming to dune. The Way Jessica manipulated the Freemen (Paul just happened the fit the bill) made the books seem more real more human.

People are cynical, and successful often claw their way to the top over the bodies of friend and enemies.


How often do we say we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And how often is that light little more than a skylight, not out of the tunnel; but directed down the next stretch.

Dune is not a happy feel good book. It is gritty hungry and real depiction of the human condition in extraordinary circumstanses.

Did Paul really 'just happen to fit the bill'? I don't have the book in front of me, but didn't Jessica think to herself that the Bene Gesserit set up 'prophecies' on a lot of planets for just such emergencies & think about which one to use?

It was one of the coolest things about 'Dune', the way the characters were sucked into their destinies. More important, Herbert set them up so well.

My copy is taking forever! I probably won't get to it till October!

Hi all
I Just joined this Site and Club. Great site by the way.
I first read Dune in College but found the first few chapters hard to digest, so I dropped it.My friend who also is an avid SciFi reader kept recommending it. I finally finished it but I read the prequels written by Brain Herbert and kevin Anderson before - which made it all make better sense. I continued on in the series and am on Chapter house now. I think that its best to read it in order from the begining(Butlerian Jihad) to the end ( Sandworms of Dune). Great story- all around. It is amazing the imagination behind he series and that Frank Herbert started writing the series from the middle of the story.!!

Finally got my copy so I will just now be starting.

BunWat wrote: "My feeling is that with book two the books start turning into textbooks about the Dune universe instead of novels, and each successive book goes further down that road than the one before it. "

That's an interesting observation, and it's actually the way I felt about the FIRST novel (blasphemy, I know). I felt like I was reading a history book rather than a novel. I was never involved in [Book: Dune] or any of the sequels.

I read it in my teens and thought it was 'OK' but not worth the hype. I re-read it again recently, along with Dune Messiah' and if anything my opinion has gone down. The basic plot is good and the setting and background is good but I found the dialogue really let it down. What really irritated me was the characters habit of spouting long pretentious speeches. I could almost imagine it being done in iambic pentameter with overdone facial expressions by William Shatner :-) That corny cod philosophy just ruined it for me.

..... Dudes.... The entire Dune Saga is probably the most complex in literature... save in the poesys...

Well, IMO, Dune (the book and the Saga) is to SF AS LOTR is to Fantasy. In brief. It is the best SF novel ever written. I dont remember my 1st impressions since I have read the saga so many times, but it was compelling enough for me to re-read a 2nd time immediately, so that I could get names, places and peoples straight. Read it 1st for effect and then for content. It requires many readings to get the whole thing. It is complex and confusing at 1st (like the movie), but that is one thing I like about it.

I think the initial trilogy the best, but love all the books, even the prequels which take me back to the universe.

I'm gonna make a bunch of enemies by throwing my lot in with Robinhj on this one. Let the stoning commence...

....and the Golden Path is probably the greatest idea in the Saga.....and it is one of the greatest in modern western philosophy...

Jerin1701 wrote: "....and the Golden Path is probably the greatest idea in the Saga.....and it is one of the greatest in modern western philosophy... "

Indeed! Would that our 'leaders' would take the long view.

I am glad I am not the only one who found Dune pretentious. I quite like it, but found it a little pompous in style and lacking any real wit. I learned nothing from it except here was an overated novel.

....Kernos! my friend! It will kick us out of our complacency!! transcend us beyond biologically!! and simply for our children 'n humanity!.. to eternity

Pretentious isn't a word I would have thought of to describe 'Dune'. I really liked it when I read it back in the 70's & I've read it a couple of times since then. I thought it was an excellent stand-alone novel.

I thought the next 2 books weren't as good, but it was an OK trilogy. Then God-Emperor came out. I'd agree with a description of pretentious for that. I never bothered reading further - don't think I ever managed to finish God-Emperor, for that matter. I know I tried a couple of times, though.

Frank Herbert, like all people, struggled with certain ideas all of his life. With a dash of melodrama, a sprinkle of pretentiousness, and a large dollop of teenage empowerment fantasy, he gave us Dune.

As a young man I loved these books. Partly I loved them because I thought they were over my head. There is a philosophical mystery that permeates all of Herbert's work, the Big Question of "what is consciousness". You can read almost all of his books as attempts to answer this question within the simulation of a story (and all its interesting premises). Each of Herbert's stories can be read as the same experiment conducted with slightly different initial conditions.

I can't read Dune anymore because it's all brain and no heart. And my brain is no longer stimulated: Dune is the ultimate philosophical discussion that gives off much heat and no light. There are no standards for progress through the dialectic, and hence there is no progress. And what's more there is no possibility for progress. Dune is a dead-end in precisely the same area it promises so much progress. It's like a literary optical illusion or Escher print.

In particular, Herbert successfully captures the ache of not knowing but badly wanting to know, and this is no small feat. But the puzzle he chooses is so badly described as to be unsolvable. This is good if you want your narrative to last for 6 books; this is bad if you genuinely want to learn something about the mind, philosophy, or anything else really.

Contrast this with the oft-compared Lord of the Rings. As a teenager I could never even get through it. Now, it's my favorite book. Tolkien was a brilliant world builder, but more than that his world was an expression of his heart. Tolkien didn't treat the world as just some premise upon which to simulate the solution to a poorly expressed problem. His world was the non-dialectical poetry in which to embed his loves, hopes, and yes, faith. It is rare to find an author that can extend his art to the very fabric of the world. (And that's why fantasy has got to be the hardest type of fiction to write well.)

I'm sorry, i had to make an account to comment on this book after seeing what some of the people here are saying.

I'll be frank and say that i did not like this book. I did finish it, but i found myself wanting to stop many times. To be honest i didn't find any of this Philosophical at all. I found it to be the ramblings of a man trying to be coy and clever in an attempt to BE philosophical. I can't even tell you how much the dialog in these books annoyed me, so i won't go into it. I also did understand the book, that wasn't the problem, i just found it to be so pretentious. I couldn't really find too many of the characters compelling, albeit i did like a few (Gurney to name one). And i know i sound like a jerk, and i hate to be "that guy" who just doesn't like the book at all... but to be honest i didn't. After reading Steppenwolf, and the LOTR Trilogy a couple of weeks ago i just found i couldn't care about this book at all, especially because what Steppenwolf had to say compared to this was so Chaotic, Beautiful, Disgusting, Intelligent, and COMPLETELY Human that when i got to this it just kind of fell extremely short, and just seemed like Herbert was trying to be clever for "cleverness'" sake, instead of actually trying to say something and, to me, it came off really bad.

Anyway, this is just my opinion on the book, i'm sure lots of people like it for their own reasons, it just didn't "click" with me.