Book Nook Cafe discussion

We will have a Buddy Read June 2011 for

Journal of a Solitude~May Sarton

Please feel free to join in and read this book with Deborah and I.

Details:


What is this? This is a Buddy Read. All are welcome to join in.

When: Start reading the book June 2011

Where: The discussion will be in this thread.

Synopsis: In this, her bestselling journal, May Sarton writes with keen observation and emotional courage of both inner and outer worlds: a garden, the seasons, daily life in New Hampshire, books, people, ideas—and throughout everything, her spiritual and artistic journey. "I am here alone for the first time in weeks," May Sarton begins this book, "to take up my 'real' life again at last. That is what is strange—that friends, even passionate love,are not my real life, unless there is time alone in which to explore what is happening or what has happened." In this journal, she says, "I hope to break through into the rough, rocky depths,to the matrix itself. There is violence there and anger never resolved. My need to be alone is balanced against my fear of what will happen when suddenly I enter the huge empty silence if I cannot find support there."

In this book, we are closer to the marrow than ever before in May Sarton's writing.

Book Details:
Publisher: W.W. Norton & Co. Inc.
Paperback
October 1992
ISBN 978-0-393-30928-7
208 pages


Spoiler Etiquette: This book is so short (200 pages) and I don't think it is a spoiler type book. So I think we can do away with spoiler warnings. If you don't like to read anything about a book before reading it, then it is probably best not to read this thread.

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Journal-Solitud...

Author Bio from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Sarton

May Sarton

Born Eleanore Marie Sarton
3 May 1912(1912-05-03)
Wondelgem, Belgium

Died 16 July 1995(1995-07-16) (aged 83)

Nationality Belgium
United States

May Sarton is the pen name of Eleanore Marie Sarton (3 May 1912 – 16 July 1995), an American poet, novelist, and memoirist.

Despite the quality of some of her many novels and poems, May Sarton's best and most enduring work probably lies in her journals, particularly Journal of a Solitude (1973) and The House by the Sea (1974-1976). In these fragile, rambling and honest accounts of her solitary life, she deals with such issues as ageing, isolation, solitude, friendship, lesbianism, self-doubt, success and failure, envy, love of nature, gratitude for life's simple pleasures, and the constant struggles of a creative life.

Discussion Questions


1-The deliberate decision to live alone was a brave one for a woman of Sarton’s generation. “I am here alone for the first time in weeks, to take up my ‘real’ life again at last. That is what is strange-that friends, even passionate love, are not my real life unless there is time alone in which to explore and to discover what is happening or what has happened. Without the interruptions, nourishing and maddening, this life would become arid. Yet I taste it fully only when I am alone here and ‘the house and I resume old conversations’” (Journal of a Solitude, p. 11). Discuss the role solitude plays in Sarton’s journals. What price does she pay for living alone? How does she deal with her loneliness? What does she see as the rewards of the solitude she has chosen?

2- “There is no doubt that solitude is a challenge and to maintain balance within it a precarious business. But I must not forget that, for me, being with people or even with one beloved person for any length of time without solitude is even worse. I lose my center. I feel dispersed, scattered, in pieces. I must have time alone in which to mull over any encounter and to extract its juice, its essence, to understand what has really happened to me as a consequence of it” (Journal of a Solitude, p. 195). It is ironic that Sarton’s “solitary” life is in fact filled with visitors and commitments that take time away from her art. What is your reaction to the many complaints she makes about these interruptions?

3-“Plant Dreaming Deep has brought me many friends of the work. . . . But I have begun to realize that, without my own intention, that book gives a false view. The anguish of my life here-its rages-is hardly mentioned. Now I hope to break through into the rough rocky depths, to the matrix itself. There is violence there and anger never resolved” (Journal of a Solitude, p. 13). Contrast the picture of the emotional life revealed in these two journals. To what extent does Journal of a Solitude achieve her stated goal?

4- “Now I am reading over the journal and revising I see that I have made a good journey out of depression and rage, and it is time soon to make an end of this means of handling those demons. It has served its purpose” (Recovering, p. 239). “I feel happy to be keeping a journal again. I have missed it, missed ‘naming things’ as they appear, missed the half hour when I push all duties aside and savor the experience of being alive in this beautiful place” (At Seventy, p. 17). How do you think keeping a journal helped Sarton to live with the inevitable results of the choices she made?

5- Sarton often attributes her depression to the fact that the literary critical establishment for so long either ignored or disparaged her work. All her books have remained in print, however, and her journals especially touched the lives of many thousands of readers. How would you assess her strengths and weaknesses as a writer?

6-What do you think is the essential appeal of Sarton’s journals? How does she achieve their effects? In Encore, she tells her readers, “I suddenly realized what it is about my journals that may be valuable. I never tell people what to do. I cannot imagine making a step-by-step analysis of how to live in solitude. I describe a way of life” (p. 214). Is she right in this perception?

7-“What kept me going was, I think, that writing for me is a way of understanding what is happening to me, of thinking hard things out. I have never written a book that was not born out of a question I needed to answer for myself. Perhaps it is the need to remake order out of chaos over and over again. For art is order, but it is made out of the chaos of life” (At Seventy, p. 105). Do you agree with Sarton’s definition of art? What order is she attempting to create in her own writing?

8- Unlike many journals, Sarton’s are clearly written to be read by the public. What are some differences between public and private journals? Has Sarton’s unusual honesty for a woman of her generation to some extent overcome the public/private distinction?

9-Looking at Sarton’s work, what is the difference between a journal and a memoir?

10- In The House by the Sea, Sarton writes, “If there is an art to the keeping of a journal intended for publication yet at the same time a very personal record, it may be in what E[lizabeth] Bowen said: ‘One must regard oneself impersonally as an instrument’” (p. 5). What do you think of Bowen’s statement? To what degree does Sarton achieve objectivity or impersonality in her journals?

11-Sarton attends to the smallest pleasures of life, whether setting a beautiful table or arranging the flowers she grows in her garden. What effect does the recording of these details have on the reader?

12- Discuss how the fact that Sarton was a poet influences the style of her journal and memoir writing. For instance, how does she use metaphors and images to convey her daily physical, intellectual, and emotional experience?

13- What does Sarton mean by saying, “We are all myth-makers about ourselves” (Plant Dreaming Deep, p. 183)? How would you define a myth? What myths does Sarton create? How do you respond to them?

14- “I read [C. M. Bowra’s essay on Sappho] forty-six years ago, and it had the good effect of helping me come to terms with the fact that women alone inspired me to write poems. It was troubling, but the seizure, when it came, was so commanding I could not doubt its value. I could not believe I was wrong or aberrant. It gave me courage to be myself and not to allow the ethos of the time to blur my vision.” (At Seventy, p. 91). In Journal of a Solitude, Sarton refers to her lovers only by initials. Does this deception work? Does knowing that Sarton is a lesbian affect our understanding of her story?

15- Sarton said that women have always been the necessary muse for her poetry. What does the word “muse” mean to you? What do you think Sarton is saying about her muse?

16- The desire for romantic love plays a large part in Sarton’s emotional landscape. “I have longed for one person with whom everything could be shared, but I am slowly making my peace with the knowledge that this will never happen” (Journal of a Solitude, p. 157). How realistic is this wish? What impression do you get of Sarton’s relationships with her friends and lovers?

17- “Having an English mother and a Belgian father, I have been for forty years a builder of bridges-a builder of bridges between one kind of life and another, between Europe and America for example” (Endgame, p. 227). How has Sarton’s European background influenced her? Compare the portraits of her family and her early life in I Knew a Phoenix and A World of Light with those she writes in her later journals. How does her view of her parents change as she gets older?

18- What is the function of gardening in Sarton’s life? How does she balance her days between the demands of her writing and the demands of the physical world she is constantly creating and re-creating around her? In the later journals, how does the gradual decay of the garden function as a metaphor?

19- Animals are essential to Sarton’s well-being. What is the particular love, devotion, and dependence that Tamas, Bramble, Pierrot, and the birds in the garden offer her?

20- What role does music play in Sarton’s life? During what moods was it most important? Why was she at times unable to listen to the music she loved so much?

21- Late in her life, Sarton was, as one might expect, absorbed by death, dying, and illness. Her journals detail her daily battle with pain and increasing debility. What is your response to her candor in discussing these topics?

Since it is always good to define terms when having a discussion I thought I would post some thoughts on the subject at hand, solitude.

What is solitude?

Dictionary:
noun
1. the state of being or living alone; seclusion: to enjoy one's solitude.
2. remoteness from habitations, as of a place; absence of human activity: the solitude of the mountains.
3. a lonely, unfrequented place: a solitude in the mountains.
-------------------------------------

Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitude

--------------------------------------

Psychology Today:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articl...

Loneliness is marked by a sense of isolation. Solitude, on the other hand, is a state of being alone without being lonely and can lead to self-awareness.

See link for full article.

Good idea to have a definition of terms. Thank you. Over the years i've learned that some people see loneliness and solitude as the same thing. Being a bit of a "loner" myself, i couldn't understand their confusion. Still, each of those with whom i discussed the topic truly hated being alone and had the tv or music going whenever they were "on their own". Clearly, they knew loneliness but the state of peacefulness i achieve with solitude evaded them.

deborah, looking forward to reading this together

I have known people who not only hate being alone but are afraid of it. I need a certain amount of solitude to re-energize and have the peacefulness that you are talking about.

If this book is available at my library, I intend to join in. Let's hope!!

I will hope so, Bobbie. Yesterday i found the collected poems of May Sarton, so intend to read some of those as well. I've read her fiction but only a couple of poems.

deborah

OOPS! I'm editing this just to note that i realized after posting that we are not scheduled to start discussion until June 1. Sorry 'bout that. It's good i stopped where i did, in that case. :-)

This is a book full of ideas which need time to develop in my own brain. As we mentioned above, the idea of solitude itself intrigues. It's clear Sarton wants it and, at times, seems to regret she must interact with the world. Yet near the beginning (the journal begins Sept 15), Sept 21st, her old friend Perley Cole is dying. Readers of her earlier book about her home, Plant Dreaming Deep, will recognize Mr. Cole & his situation. He is married but his wife has been ill a long, long time, so his, too, is the life of a solitude.

I think she wanted us to see there are solitudes of many sorts, chosen & not. And the question is what the interactions of the world mean to those finding themselves in solitude. Certainly his death was psychically painful to him, as it was a lonely one.

Upthread i mentioned that i found a book of poems Sarton herself selected for collection. One of those is about Perley. As she shares much of it, i will not post it. I was pleased to see i recognized a quote she used when first describing the fact he was in a nursing home. It is from a poem by Edna St. Vincent Millay, which i'm going to post on the poetry thread. I like it and see why she thought of it in connection with him.

As i mentioned, there is much to address in the book because she reaches beyond her home this time. She mentions politics, feminism, travel as well as her personal life. I'll hold this post to just Perley, as i was sorry to read about his lonely death.

deborah

You can post about the book anytime.

I'll be able to start tomorrow or the next day.

It is interesting to be reminded of all those "new" ideas explored by feminists around the time she was writing this journal. Some of them almost sound dated but at the time they were major leaps in thinking about women and their work. Because she single (though not unencumbered), she sees the problem but i'm not sure she grasps the urgency some may feel.

And allow me to say that i feel i could have written her segment about Dallas today! I got a charge out of that part, as you might imagine. Coincidentally we saw a show which mentioned a couple in the city buying a historical home. Ha! What that means in Dallas is that it is old, not anything original. Sarton really captured that angle, too.

deb

Deb, I started the book yesterday. I am enjoying it as much as I did the first time around.

* Page # refer to the Norton paperback edition

As I was reading on a train, I had made a list of things I wanted to look up and discuss.

P 18- Dr. Gatch
Before the War on Terror and the War on Drugs, Beaufort County waged a War on Hunger. The man who fired the first shot was Dr. Donald Gatch.
While practicing medicine in Beaufort County in the 1960s and '70s, Gatch exposed staggering levels of malnutrition and hunger in the coastal South Carolina area -- hunger few people knew still existed in the 20th century. His revelations made him unpopular among health officials and local media. For example, a Beaufort Gazette editorial in November 1967 said the doctor's testimony on hunger amounted to little more than Gatch"running his mouth."

He was threatened by locals, forced to close his practice in Beaufort and investigated by local public officials. Nonetheless, the doctor's work changed the way community health is practiced in Beaufort County, say health care workers and those who knew him.
Read more: http://www.islandpacket.com/2010/02/1...
http://www.islandpacket.com/2010/02/1...

P 19 Gene McCarthy
Eugene Joseph "Gene" McCarthy (March 29, 1916 – December 10, 2005) was an American politician, poet, and a long-time member of the United States Congress from Minnesota
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_M...

P 21 Elizabet Vining
Elizabeth Janet Gray Vining (October 6, 1902 – November 27, 1999), born Elizabeth Janet Gray and also known as Elizabeth Gray Vining, was a professional librarian who tutored Emperor Akihito of Japan in English while he was the crown prince. She was also a noted author of children's literature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabet...

P 27 Laocoon "I sometimes feel it is a laocoon struggle..." I was not familiar with this word.
In the classic marble sculpture, the Trojan priest Laocoon is assailed by a fearsome sea serpent. While clearly in pain, over time the interpretation of Laocoon's countenance has been constantly re-evaluated from different historical perspectives.
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/pain/mic...

P 28 "Anger is a short madness" - Horace
I like this quote.

P 33 "...clarify, clarify"
This immediately brought to mind Henry David Thoreau's "Simplify, Simplify"

P 41 "..the poem is primarily a dialogue with the self and the novel a dialogue with others. They come from entirely different modes of being, I suppose I have written novels to find out what I thought about some thing and poems to find out what I felt about something."

I found this interesting. I know you love poetry, Deb. I wondered if you concurred with this sentiment.

P 44 Loyalty
Loyalty is faithfulness or a devotion to a person, country, group, or cause (Philosophers disagree as to what things one can be loyal to).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty


p48 Sarton's Delights. I like this.
"Light, solitude, the natural world, love, time, creation itself."

P 50 Deb, I was a bit confused about this passage of Kennedy. Peace and Black Power. Could you help clarify what Sarton was trying to convey?

P 27 and other places- Sarton's mood swings, tantrums and depression.
Did you think she was a manic depressive?

Depression is a medical illness that involves the mind and body. Also called major depression, major depressive disorder and clinical depression, it affects how you feel, think and behave. Depression can lead to a variety of emotional and physical problems. You may have trouble doing normal day-to-day activities, and depression may make you feel as if life isn't worth living.

More than just a bout of the blues, depression isn't a weakness, nor is it something that you can simply "snap out" of. Depression is a chronic illness that usually requires long-term treatment, like diabetes or high blood pressure. But don't get discouraged. Most people with depression feel better with medication, psychological counseling or other treatment.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depr...

Mood swings are commonly associated with mood disorders including bipolar disorder (manic depression)[1] and depression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mood_swing

Bipolar disorder or manic-depressive disorder, also referred to as bipolar affective disorder or manic depression, is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a category of mood disorders defined by the presence of one or more episodes of abnormally elevated energy levels, cognition, and mood with or without one or more depressive episodes. The elevated moods are clinically referred to as mania or, if milder, hypomania. Individuals who experience manic episodes also commonly experience depressive episodes, or symptoms, or mixed episodes in which features of both mania and depression are present at the same time.[2] These episodes are usually separated by periods of "normal" mood; but, in some individuals, depression and mania may rapidly alternate, which is known as rapid cycling. Extreme manic episodes can sometimes lead to such psychotic symptoms as delusions and hallucinations. The disorder has been subdivided into bipolar I, bipolar II, cyclothymia, and other types, based on the nature and severity of mood episodes experienced; the range is often described as the bipolar spectrum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_...

Alias Reader wrote:
P 41 "..the poem is primarily a dialogue with the self and the novel a dialogue with others. They come from entirely different modes of being, I suppose I have written novels to find out what I thought about some thing and poems to find out what I felt about something."

I found this interesting. I know you love poetry, Deb. I wondered if you concurred with this sentiment...."

Alias, i wondered about that comment, as well. My conclusion is that she meant the process itself. Poetry often requires a filtering, elimination and conciseness which prose doesn't need. In order for a quality poem to work, IMO (i hasten to add), it must be distilled for clarity. In prose one can keep adding words until the vision is evident to all.

Sure, there is still labor over the words in either case, don't get me wrong. However, that "dialogue with the self" may mean that in order to find the exact word to convey the meaning, a poet must dig further to see what the idea or image means to her before s/he can find the "right" word. Again, a writer of prose can, if desired, continue to flesh out the idea or image on the page without word limit until s/he feels it is clear, "the dialogue with others."

At least this is my interpretation of what she meant. If others disagree, i'm sure we'd both welcome the...dialogue. ;-)

Alias Reader wrote: "P 50 Deb, I was a bit confused about this passage of Kennedy. Peace and Black Power. Could you help clarify what Sarton was trying to convey?"

Alias, it seems to me she was writing strictly in the context of being in Dallas. Even then, post-Kennedy assassination, there was a continued disdain for the Kennedy family, which was partly tied to their perceived support for civil rights. The college i attended had its sole civil rights march the previous spring ('68). Not only was the turnout small but they were booed by fellow college students. So, you may imagine how the idea of "Black Power" went over!

As i read the paragraph her mention of war had to do with the race conflict, not Vietnam. She seems to suggest that the Dallas women feel a betrayal of loyalty when all-out war is mentioned by African Americans. A betrayal from "loss of the loving warmth between master and servant." I fully disagree.

Of course i am only one person with limited experience but i have NEVER heard anything but animus when prejudiced white people here discuss African Americans. No loss of warmth because there was little to none to begin with here. Theirs was a different, hard working slavery.

She mentioned the facade of the homes being a veneer, just as the Dallasites culture was. While i didn't get this from her words, i felt she could have written something similar about many social issues. They knew what the northerners wanted to hear & could parrot it. The words back then spoke of equality but it was a veneer which was exposed when practiced.

Again, i am open to disagreement from others. And i repeat that this is my experience, which may not be universal in the city itself. And i am basing this on those times of which Sarton writes, not the Dallas of today.

RE: bi-polar? Perhaps because my family has personal experience with this i have given more thought to it than others. At our family reunion in Montana last month we discussed it quite a bit. It is not as easy to pin down as one might think. We all have our manic and depressed states but it's hard to tell from the outside if it is strong enough for an individual to be diagnosed.

For my money, Sarton seems close. The anger is what inclines me toward that. She is rather vague about what sets her off at times, so it's tough to tell if her anger is valid but it's clear she feels her expression of it is wrong-headed.

Have you seen it mentioned about her anywhere else? I have not, although her depression is often a factor in reviews and material about her. The only real manic aspect i can see is with the flowers. LOL!

She is wild about them, something i recall from
Plant Dreaming Deep, too. However, if manic, it's controlled. I say that because in winter she must have to order them, not a spur-of-the-moment purchase. And plenty of them, if her descriptions are any indication.

I know my reply doesn't zero it down but this juror is still out. I don't know that her self-discipline in writing the journal lends itself to the diagnosis. She lives alone, rather isolated, yet still manages to produce lucid writing.

deb, still thinking about it

Alias Reader wrote: "P 44 Loyalty
Loyalty is faithfulness or a devotion to a person, country, group, or cause (Philosophers disagree as to what things one can be loyal to). ..."

Alias, i am wondering what your thoughts were about her statements on loyalty. She was being deliberately vague, so i can only guess that she means her friends felt she was disloyal in writing openly about being a lesbian. At first i was baffled by how that might have seemed disloyal (indeed, how any topic could seem disloyal if she wrote from her own experience, as she seems to do). If this is about her sexual preference, then the disloyalty may be to those associated with her who didn't want her (& possibly their) status known.

I'm not even sure she addresses her thoughts on the word, only that she has been accused. This is one reason i'm asking you what your opinion. The way she seems to look at it is that they are accusing her of being disloyal but she sees her words as an expression of her own explorations concerning her feelings. As she put it, that's her job.

Btw, thank you for looking up & sharing the terms & people. Most of them come to mind from the recesses of my memory but for some i have no clue, such as Elizabeth Vining. I appreciate your efforts.

deborah

Madrano wrote: Alias, it seems to me she was writing strictly in the context of being in Dallas. Even then, post-Kennedy assassination, there was a continued disdain for the Kennedy family, which was partly tied to their perceived support for civil rights. The college i attended had its sole civil rights march the previous spring ('68). Not only was the turnout small but they were booed by fellow college students. So, you may imagine how the idea of "Black Power" went over!

As i read the paragraph her mention of war had to do with the race conflict, not Vietnam. She seems to suggest that the Dallas women feel a betrayal of loyalty when all-out war is mentioned by African Americans. A betrayal from "loss of the loving warmth between master and servant." I fully disagree.
-------------

Thank you. That does explain it. I guess I wasn't aware that Kennedy was so disliked in Dallas.
It makes me even more mad at myself for not picking up The Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys: An American Saga in the used book store when I had the chance. It's a 900 + page tome so I passed. Now I see it's out of print. Good heavens! How can a Doris Kearns Goodwin book be out of print. What is this world coming to? :(

Do you know a good Kennedy book that you would recommend?

Also the line you quoted "loss of the loving warmth between master and servant." confused me.

Thanks for explaining this.

Madrano wrote: For my money, Sarton seems close. The anger is what inclines me toward that. She is rather vague about what sets her off at times, so it's tough to tell if her anger is valid but it's clear she feels her expression of it is wrong-headed.
-------------

As I read on last night and read on page 57
"I have been close to suicide more than once"

She also comments on page 43 about "fellow sufferers".

I felt she definitely had some issues. I am not sure if she tried to get professional help. I'll see if I can find anything on the net.

More comments as I read on...

Page 54
I really liked this quote. I copied it into my quote jnl.

"The only thing that is not chance is what one asks of oneself and how well or how badly one meets one's own standard."

Page 54-55
This was the section on De Gaulle's death.

I noticed she takes a word and really analyzes it. I guess this leads back to your reply to poetry/prose question. I like how she does this. I think, especially in our multitasking fast paced world, this is a lost art.

In this section she grabs a hold of the word "Wholeness" much like she did earlier with "loyalty"

Alias Reader wrote: "I noticed she takes a word and really analyzes it. I guess this leads back to your reply to poetry/prose question. I like how she does this. I think, especially in our multitasking fast paced world, this is a lost art. ..."

I agree with you. I suppose that too is more a part of the poet. It seems to me that by analyzing a word the poet can derive deeper interpretations, as well as new spins on words. This is one reason i cherish poetry, as well as writing on words themselves.

The quote you copied is one i passed on to my sister, too. At this point in our lives we tend to reevaluate the question. I feel she put it well.

Let me know if you determine whether or not she sought help. For some reason i have it in my mind that she mentioned either therapy or "counselor" in the book but i came to realize it was unclear if she meant for her own mental health or part of another reason. Maybe i'm totally misremembering, too.

deb

Alias Reader wrote: "Do you know a good Kennedy book that you would recommend?

Also the line you quoted "loss of the loving warmth between master and servant." confused me.

Thanks for explaining this. ..."

I haven't read any books about the Kennedy family since i was a teenager. You might imagine how hagiographic they were, only 5 years after JFK's murder. My tendency is to trust Kearns Goodwin for more balance but i'm not one for a 900+ bio of the family!

As for the master/servant observation, i suspect it came easily to me because i so recently finished the DuBois book of essays. You may recall that he mentioned that status (he used the word "slave" while Sarton used "servant") in a couple of pieces toward the end of the book, particularly on faith/religion in the African American community.

deb, happy to see Bobbie's edition of this book came in!

Madrano wrote:
"Let me know if you determine whether or not she sought help. For some reason i have it in my mind that she mentioned either therapy or "counselor" in the book but i came to realize it was unclear if she meant for her own mental health or part of another reason
====================
Are you referring to the journal entry of January 5th ?

She writes, "Would he be what he is in his early twenties if he had not gone through suicidal depression at 13 or 14, followed by years of psychiatry?"

I've looked on the net and see a lot about her depression but not about any formal diagnosis or of her seeking help.

I did see there is a bio of her. Unfortunately, the few reviews on Amazon are very mixed.

May Sarton: Biography~~ Margot Peters

page 70 January 2 entry

In this section she writes about women as artists.

I wish she could have seen The Dinner Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dinn...
exhibit. We've come a long way, baby ! :)

Page 80 January 7th entry

"Wrinkles here and there seem unimportant compared to the Gestalt of the whole person."

I wish society felt this way. I think on this score, we haven't made any progress.

I've finished. I've read this book before. However, it wasn't the Sarton book I thought it was. I must have read one of her later books when she lived in a two story house in Maine. I recall she had to give up living in the upper floor.

Anyway, I did enjoy this quiet almost meditative book. It also made me wish I had a garden. :)

January 5th... no Nixon fan is she. :)

P 99 February 2 "that if one looks long enough at almost anything, looks with absolute attention at a flower, a stone, the bark of a tree, grass, snow, a cloud, something like revelation takes place. Something is given and perhaps that something is always a reality outside the self. We are aware of God only when we cease to be aware of ourselves, no in the negative sense of denying the self, but in the sense of losing self in admiration and joy."

I thought this sentiment sounded very Buddhist like. Trying to live in the moment and really seeing, hearing etc. what is here in the moment. I guess it is something that Christopher in The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time would do very well.

page 147 May 6
I liked this quote. Another one for my journal.
"Suffering often feels like failure, but it is actually the door into growth."

Page 158 May 28
This is the Amazon link to the book she mentions.
Loneliness
http://www.amazon.com/Loneliness-Clar...
Loneliness~Clark E. Moustakas

page 159 May 28th
I like this definition of clutter
"Clutter is what silts up exactly like silt in a flowing stream when the current, the free flow of the mind, is held up by an obstruction."

p 204 Sept. 16
Deb, this may be the dr. reference you mentioned.
"I am haunted, of course, by the remark made to me by a psychiatrist whom I saw briefly many years ago about another such problem."

I finished the book last night. There is much fodder in it that i have three post-its full of notes & references. Unfortunately i cannot find the one about a psychiatrist but it was early in the book. In retrospect, given all the other mentions on the topic, i suspect she was referencing something she read & i thought she heard it in a therapy session.

Given all her reading on the topic of psychology, i suspect she didn't feel the need. Or maybe the cost was more than she was willing to pay. The number of resources she quoted leads me to believe she felt there was benefit from them, although i am of the opinion it would have helped her to have a non-friend sounding board.

The quote you shared on clutter is one i highlighted, too. There are several about day-to-day life i liked. Another is from the same date, May 28. "I feel cluttered when there is no time to analyze experience. That is the silt--unexplored experience that literally chokes the mind."

This is something i experience. Then, when i have the time, i don't use it to analyze or explore! I suppose that would be a benefit to writing it down, whether in poetry or a journal. But those are such sedentary endeavors. ;-)

Clearly this was one of her "down" days. Yet it is full of nature, in its own sad way--the raccoon, the pregnant cat, the bird's eye. Can you bear another from that SAME day? "In the end what kills is not agony (for agony at least asks something of the soul) but everyday life."

I'll stop here for now. On the poetry thread i am going to post a couple of the poems Sarton referenced. Some i didn't care for or were "too long" but i thought i could offer two.

deborah

Oh, i meant to ask, Alias. You wrote that this isn't the book you thought you read and that the other was about her house in Maine. Reading this book (and Plant Dreaming Deep) led me to want to read one about her Maine home. Do you recall which you read (she wrote several & because you reference her decision to give up the upper floor, it sounds as though it was not the first one)?

Sarton's appreciation for the natural world is a delight to read. To share in her Maine vantage point would be pleasant.

Oh! Speaking of nature. The coots on our lake are holding their ceremonial gathering. It's such fun to watch--they alight on the surface of the lake, stay less than a minute, then fly away, several at a time to the next stopping place, usually under 25 yards away. They work their way around our part of the lake. I have a You Tube video of it from a few years ago, if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNoorF...

It's a bit more than 2 minutes long. In this video they actually stayed longer than most days, which you'll hear us note. The quacking you hear is DH, btw! If you'd like to skim toward the end, you'll see how they move on...it's cool. It's about 1:25 into the film.

deborah

Madrano wrote: "Given all her reading on the topic of psychology, i suspect she didn't feel the need. Or maybe the cost was more than she was willing to pay. The number of resources she quoted leads me to believe she felt there was benefit from them, although i am of the opinion it would have helped her to have a non-friend sounding board."
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Yes, she certainly referenced Jung a lot.

The book did have a 1970's flavor that I quite enjoyed. It gives an authentic telling of what people may have been feeling or thinking about at that time.

Madrano wrote: "I finished the book last night. There is much fodder in it that i have three post-its full of notes & references. ."
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Interesting how much there is in such a quiet contemplative book.

Madrano wrote:The quote you shared on clutter is one i highlighted, too. There are several about day-to-day life i liked. Another is from the same date, May 28. "I feel cluttered when there is no time to analyze experience. That is the silt--unexplored experience that literally chokes the mind." "
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I think I am guilty of this. I go from one thing to the next without really stopping to analyze things.

Madrano wrote: Clearly this was one of her "down" days. Yet it is full of nature, in its own sad way--the raccoon, the pregnant cat, the bird's eye. Can you bear another from that SAME day? "In the end what kills is not agony (for agony at least asks something of the soul) but everyday life."

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Yes, I noted that one but in the end I couldn't decide if I agree with the sentiment she posits.

To me she was saying it is better to feel pain and be alive, than to go through life superficially feeling nothing.

I guess that is true, but I don't want to live a life of Job either.

Madrano wrote: "Oh, i meant to ask, Alias. You wrote that this isn't the book you thought you read and that the other was about her house in Maine. Reading this book (and Plant Dreaming Deep) led me to want to read one about her Maine home. Do you recall which you read (she wrote several & because you reference her decision to give up the upper floor, it sounds as though it was not the first one)? .."
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I wish I knew. It was pre 1999 so I can't reference my jnl and I know it was a library book.

I have been able to acquire a few other Sarton books. The library book store that my sister has near her seems to get a lot of her books. When I was there a few days ago, they had her letters book, but I passed on it. It was only a $1, but I'm drowning in books.

My books are totally unorganized, but I located in my stacks:

The House by the Sea: A Journal

At Seventy: A Journal

Reading the back cover of The House by the Sea, it takes place in 1973 and Maine. So this must be the one where she has to abandon the upper floors of her home. I seem to recall that she had a live in housekeeper. But my memory may be faulty on that score.

I do want to read these books. Right now my plate is too full. But I'll keep you in mind if you are game a few months or so from now.

Madrano wrote: "Oh! Speaking of nature. The coots on our lake are holding their ceremonial gathering. It's such fun to watch--they alight on the surface of the lake, stay less than a minute, then fly away, several at a time to the next stopping place, usually under 25 yards away. They work their way around our part of the lake. I have a You Tube video of it from a few years ago, if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNoorF0nq...

It's a bit more than 2 minutes long. In this video they actually stayed longer than most days, which you'll hear us note. The quacking you hear is DH, btw! If you'd like to skim toward the end, you'll see how they move on...it's cool. It's about 1:25 into the film.
---------------

It took forever for my dial-up to download it, but it was worth it.

OMG, your lake is so beautiful ! I love the bench around the tree. It must be so lovely to sit out there with a book.

I can't believe how many birds there were. Are they in the water or standing on a reef or something? Why are they lined up like that? Feeding? How often to they gather like that?

I know nothing about birds. It's so funny that you mentioned coots as my niece was yelling at me this past weekend because I didn't know how to tell the female mallard from the male. Apparently florescent green head.

The coot looks like a mallard or duck to me. Don't yell but I didn't know a coot was a bird. I've heard the expression "you old coot" but had no idea what a coot was. Live and learn. :)

I have to send the video to my niece. She will love it.

Often mistaken for a duck, the American Coot is a common waterbird. Its all black body and white chicken-like beak distinguish this swimming rail from the real ducks.
http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/am...

Deborah, I certainly enjoyed your video of the coot assembly. I'm watching the sun go slowly down tonight over the Currituck Sound in NC (Outer Banks) where we have great numbers of waterfowl - even swans sometimes in the winter - and we sometimes see coots but not in large numbers. I'm enjoying some gawky herons right now, but there is a wedding tonight at a nearby park, so the birds will all take off soon when the music starts. Thanks for sharing.

Alias Reader wrote: "I do want to read these books. Right now my plate is too full. But I'll keep you in mind if you are game a few months or so from now. ..."

Alias, sign me up for when you want to read those other two books! I want to read Mrs. Stevens Hears the Mermaids Singing as my next novel. I've put it off too long & this book will serve as a segue way to it.

I agree with you about the journal full of 1970s flavor. In one way it was a pleasure to revisit old issues for contrast. Overall, the topics are still relevant.

In the end she commented on the fact the book had less solitude in it than she thought there would be. What did you think of that? It seemed to me that it could either be true or it may be that she wasn't cognizant of the fact this is the way her life usually is because she focused and craved the solitary life. It didn't appear that there were many extraordinary events but the usual vacations with certain people, lover's trysts, friends visiting. The new additions, it seems to me, were the drop-ins from those who read her work and, possibly, the addresses she made. I'm not even sure of the latter.

And what about all those letters she felt obliged to write? I'm torn on those. While i understand the desire (PR "need") to connect with those who are moved to write her after reading her books, i am not sure how wise it was. Given her seeming resentfulness of those hours taken, as well as the intrusion by in-person readers to her doorstep, it seems to me her choice was an odd one. Perhaps she just put too much on her plate.

As a reader, however, i'd write authors much more often if i thought they would give me feedback on my own life or writing! Again, i think she agreed to take on too many "strangers", including those she barely knew but committed to looking at their work. Toward the end, mercifully, it seems she was prepared to cut down that duty. I hope she did, as it only seemed to enhance her stress.

In the January 5 entry she discusses the Bloomsbury group. I recall from an earlier book, possibly I Knew a Phoenix: Sketches for an Autobiography, that she was on the periphery of their crowd. Ok, i found mention of it in this interview http://www.theparisreview.org/intervi...

I noticed that she writes about the honesty of that group when discussing their personal lives. She also seemed to contrast the openness of Virginia Woolf and Willa Cather, presuming the readers knew of their lesbian affairs. She did this elsewhere, too, in writing about other authors who didn't fit the mold, so to speak. Yet, it seems to me that she went out of her way not to identify "X" as a woman. Do you think this was intentional? She seemed to want the best of both worlds because her Mrs. Stevens novel mentioned above was about a woman's emergence as a lesbian. I know there were those who questioned sharing that information but it was an important moment in American Literature, as i understand. I'm just asking.

I also thought i'd mention the April 12 & 13 entries about Carol Heilbrun from Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_... . I am unsure whether this is the same woman who ended up Sarton's literary executor but it seems likely. Sarton was crushed & cried herself to sleep, due to Heilbrun's assessment. CH felt, "that what I have done best...is to talk about solitude."

I mention this because that is the topic of this book, so i'm unclear why it effected Sarton so well. I wish she shared what SHE thought her best work/topic was. Just wondering.

In trying to see if Carolyn & Carol Heilbrun are the same person, i found this excerpt from a book, which may be a strong example of Sarton's anger. If so, no wonder she despised it! http://books.google.com/books?id=G9vt...

Okay, enough for today. I'll go through my notes to see what else i want to mention. Oh, before i forget Heilbrun was Amanda Cross!

deborah

My niece loved the video. She said she would love to live in a house by a lake with a dock and all. I agree.

You are one lucky duck !

Alias >>> Senior bad pun creator

CRAP! I am having an AWFUL day on GR! I just erased a long message about the coots because i couldn't get the above post on the board. On another thread about showers & weddings i lost a long post, too. Clearly the universe wants me to SHUT UP! :-)

I'll just summarize the earlier, now lost post, which i apparently "edited away".

The coots in the video are in 3' of water, looking for food. I think they stayed so long on the video, as opposed to yesterday when they were barely there 30 seconds, is because they found plenty of food.

Texas was just coming out of a 9 year drought when the video was taken in the fall of '07, which may explain why we saw such gatherings quite often our first year here. The one i witnessed yesterday is the first we've had in over a year. This is just my guess as to reasons.

Another thing which happened the following spring is that for over two hours coots amassed in a sort of convention, spread over (on, in, and below) 4 or 5 boat docks. I have a couple of videos of that, too, because i was shocked at how long they lingered. We have not seen that event since then.

Alias, i am sorry you have such a problem using dial-up for videos, as i think you'd enjoy that one. I got a charge out of your lack of knowledge in relation to birds because until i moved here, i barely recognized any, either. In fact, when i started taking notice here, i began wondering if this is a True Sign of old age. LOL!

Ok, that's all i recall discussing in the lost email. Oh, other than drooling over Sarah's location. Our sole visit to the Outer Banks is one we treasure.

deborah

Really just started reading this book and I am totally enthralled. It will take at least another couple of days for me to burst forth! Of course it would help if I brought the book upstairs so I would have it beside my computer when I am posting.

So glad to have your perspective on the book, Barbara. I'm happy you were able to get the book.

Sarton is an author I can credit the library for introducing me to her. When books are free, I am more apt to be adventurous in my selections. Libraries are the best.

I cannot recall where i first heard of her. The first i remember was when i read As We Are Now: A Novel, which is about an old woman in a nursing home. This is a topic which has long interested me, for some reason, so i think i came to her via that specific topic. It was over 15 years before i read anything else by her. To wit, The Education of Harriet Hatfield. This is about a widow, of sorts, of a lesbian relationship, finding her way alone. As it is full of books (the character opens a book store), it was up my alley.

Then came the mutual discovery with Alias of Plant Dreaming Deep and we were off! LOL! In this book we see the completion of the dream, if you will, of her quest for a home of her own. I like seeing this end of it and how she feels about the conclusion of the project. It seems to me that she experienced tremendous growth there.

deb

I was thinking of nominating The House by the Sea: A Journal for our August group read.

Sounds Great! to me. :-)

Thank you so much for introducing me to May Sarton. I can't believe I have reached my age without having read anything by her previously. I have lived alone for many years now and so amidst the many quotes which grabbed me -- I am now up to and just past page 94 where I found this -- two paragraphs actually

"It occurs to me that boredom and panic are the two devils the solitary must combat. When I lay down this afternoon, I could not rest and finally got up because I was in a state of panic, panic for no definable reason, a panic of solitude, I presume."

And then she talks about how she lacks the nourishment of good conversation, theatre, concerts, art museums, etc.

I feel truly lucky that for years I had my work outside my home and that here I have lots of that cultural nourishment. I am looking forward to reading more by May Sarton.

I'm glad you are enjoying Sarton. :)

At the very least I hope we can do a buddy read of The House by the Sea.

It's the book that first turned me on to Sarton.

As to the quote you posted, it's interesting that she craves solitude, yet finds it troublesome at times. I think it has to do with her depression.

I never mind being alone. Yet I know some people who can't abide it in the least. They have to have a radio or TV on at all times. I don't feel lonely when alone and it's quiet. I actually enjoy it because I see it as prime reading time. I wonder if people who can't be alone without feeling lonely are more often then not, none readers. Just playing arm chair psychotherapist.

I don't recall this dichotomy in her other book The House By The Sea. Though I read it so long ago, I may me wrong.

As to the quote you posted, it's interesting that she craves solitude, yet finds it troublesome at times. I think it has to do with her depression.

I definitely agree with this. I don't mind being alone and I love music and love to read too. Music not just as background noise. I was an only child so I am used to entertaining myself. I need alone time to rejuvinate. There is a big difference between being alone and loneliness.

Alias Reader wrote: "As to the quote you posted, it's interesting that she craves solitude, yet finds it troublesome at times. I think it has to do with her depression. ..."

First of all, Alias, i wonder if one reason the dichotomy of solitude didn't present itself as readily in The House by the Sea: A Journal is that it wasn't the theme, if you will, the way it is for this journal? Just a thought.

Your comment about craving solitude and something to do with depression is one i pondered, as well. Three of my four siblings (i'm counting myself as one of the 3) crave solitude but the fourth rather needs people around her. If they aren't there, she'll seek them out. But my bi-polar sister has given more thought to it, as it has, indeed, tied into her mental health.

She wants solitude & the accompanying silence more than almost anything. Sadly, given the hours the other two housemates have she rarely gets it. However, when she is alone, her mind is not interrupted in dwelling upon the negative aspects of her life. So, it is troublesome, if not downright unhealthy.

Again, as a solitude myself, i appreciate her desire, as well as that of Sarton. However, given the ways they often warped it, i'm torn on whether it's a good thing for them. It may well be that the fact Sarton HAD to interact with people in order to keep her income flowing may have been the very thing which kept her sane.

I suppose it's like everything else. All things in moderation. And when you crave it like chocolate, maybe it's time to get out? Maybe. I'm still processing this.

Bobbie, i'm tickled that you are enjoying Sarton as much as we do. I don't think i've ever read about anyone who enjoyed flowers as much as she did. It seems her vases were full through all season, which must have been quite a drain on her accounting books. Still, i feel the secondary thrill "seeing" them in her words & the photos included in the book.

deborah

I'm just discovering her now as well, and it's quite an enjoyable experience. She makes me want to start writing a journal, actually, with the way she takes such little things and thoroughly puts them through the mind wringer.

There were a number of spots where her use of metaphors was marvelous...I particularly remember being struck when she described the light as sad. This is definitely a book I'm going to have to reread for everything I'm missing again.

I loved the story about the raccoon. Absolutely priceless.

About flowers -- I am not a gardener. It seems to take more strength than I think I have. Although honestly I am not sure that I am just making excuses.
Anyway -- I do have a marvelous peony bush -- which by now would have come and gone but our spring was late this year. So just yesterday I brought into the house many peonies which were hanging down and looking sad. Looking at them makes me giggle as my space isn't very large and now I feel as if I have peonies everywhere I look. I loved Sarton's description of the garden.

I'm pleased others are enjoying Sarton's words & works. Maree, i liked the way you phrased her examination of things by putting them through the wringer. It fits, doesn't it? She squeezes them for all they are worth! And we benefit!

Bobbie, those peonies take over a space. I marvel at how large they can get. The only one we had which we didn't plant had flowers as large as dinner plates! I'm baffled when nature puts such strain on the stems of a plant that way!

Maree, have you ever tried writing a journal? I'm not a faithful writer but when i reread things i wrote decades ago, i am upset that i didn't continue. It amazes me that people can journal and still have a life, however. For me i seem unable to just jot down the basics but to fill in details drains me.

deb

I've never really kept a journal. I was on myspace for a short while and wrote a few entries there that I've enjoyed going back and reading, so I know that it would be a great thing to do for the future as well as for now, as I often find that writing things down helps to clarify them. The few times I've been mad especially, I'd rip out a written diatribe with all the comebacks I'd want to say and feel all the better for it without having actually said anything hurtful to anyone.

For me though, Deb, the important thing about a journal is that it doesn't have to be an every day thing, but a significant events thing. I don't think it should be a chore, which is maybe why I haven't written and kept up with one. :)

Relating back to the book, I was interested to see that for Sarton, the notable events weren't at all about her weekends away with people. Even when she thought about moving to the sea house, it was days later when she mentions having toured the house, which she never really talks about. It's all about the animals and nature, which seem to be more important. This could of course simply be because it's supposed to be a journal of a solitude, of course, but thinking about that now, it's almost the exact opposite of how I would write it. But that's because my interactions with people are more important to me, I think.

Maree, you made a good observation there about the things Sarton chooses to discuss in the book. I was even frustrated in some ways with what she did & didn't share but didn't take the time to tie it into the fact she kept her writing pretty much about her time in the house.

I suppose in some ways my favorite parts were actually when she was home alone but riffing on topics or words which caught her eye--politics, loyalty. Not exactly about solitude, although many of us only take the time to think "deep thoughts" while alone, so maybe it is more tangental to solitude than i originally gave it credit for being.

Some of my writing i might not consider being journaling at the time but later realize it was. The most frequent example is when i write a letter to someone to vent my feelings but do not send it. I save it & when i run across it later it serves as a marker of how i did let go of some uncomfortable feelings but saved the relationship. Although, my favorite was to a dead person, so he never would have read it anyway. In that case i guess it was for my own sake from the get-go.

I agree it doesn't have to be a daily event, although i appreciate the discipline some have to do that. Mine can be years between entries. I think the longest break was over a decade. :-)

deborah