Indie and Self-Pub Book Corner discussion

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me that doing promotion/selling my book is more time consuming than writing.

For example, I write about an hour or so a day. this is generally in the evening after the kids are in bed. However, I spend at least TWO hours on Twitter, Facebook, Kindleboards, Goodreads etc.

I suppose since I am a new author with one book and no following, it is to be espected. That is the definite downside of indie-authoring. I had 0 net presence when I started. My advice to anyone considering self-pubbing is to get out there early, so you can get some of the heavy lifting done early.

Self promotion is always the hardest thing to do. You ALWAYS want to get out there and make some friends WAY before you think you are going to release your book. That way you know you have a great base of people to give some preliminary reviews and have people who are willing to buy your book and pass the word around.

You are 100% correct. I am an introrvert by nature, so it's a hard lesson learned. Now I have to expand the base without burning myself out on social networking.

"The first thing any author needs to remember is that THEY are the brand, not the title(s) of their books. [image]
Few people are likely to search onl...moreThe first thing any author needs to remember is that THEY are the brand, not the title(s) of their books.
Few people are likely to search online or enter a bookstore seeking: The XYZ Murders in Bermuda. But they WILL walk in and ask/search for: The latest murder mystery by John Doe (Tom Clancy, Stephen King, et ali.) The second thing is that unknown authors must publicize themselves. Only the Clancys, Pattersons and Ivanovichs get much promotion effort by publishing houses. My Book: Self-Promotion for Authors is just out in Kindle at a greatly reduced price from the Trade Paperback version. It's essential a primer on how to self-promote your brand and books. In addition to my book promotion experiences as a major New York PR counsel, I've included ideas and suggestions from a dozen authors, including people Like Joe Konrath and Robert Walker.(less)"

I wonder if it would be as hard, if self-publishing, wasn't still ridiculed by the traditional-minded?

Well, I have a place you guys can go as another place to sell y our books. I know a lot of people hate Amazon, and the Meat Grinder on SmashWords can make you want to give up!! Check out a brand new online electronic bookstore!!

JournalStone publishing has opened their own online bookstore, and you, the author, get to take home 70% of all the revenue! And there is a bonus - you do nothing but submit your manuscript and some information!! JournalStone converts your book for you!! No Meat Grinders to have to deal with, no headaches about fonts, just submit and watch your money come in from the sales!! A link to the store is provided below!!

http://journal-store.com/category/boo...

Tichaona wrote: "I wonder if it would be as hard, if self-publishing, wasn't still ridiculed by the traditional-minded?"

I think that is starting to fade. Most of the negativity is coming from publishing people and unfortunately other authors. Readers don't really care. They just want good stories and a professional looking book.

E.R. wrote: "I think that is starting to fade. Most of the negativity is coming from publishing people and unfortunately other authors. Readers don't really care. They just want good stories and a professional looking book."

Yeah, that's what, eventually, returns to my mind: that a book is a book and if its professionally done and well-written, it's all well and good as far as the reading of it goes.

I think people are just looking for good things to read, the market is so saturated right now that a lot of "fluff" gets through, and many readers get frustrated by icky book after icky book. As long as an author is putting out exemplary work, they won't care where it comes from!! :)

Amy wrote: "Well, I have a place you guys can go as another place to sell y our books. I know a lot of people hate Amazon, and the Meat Grinder on SmashWords can make you want to give up!! Check out a brand ..."

Just took a look at Journal-Store, but I do have some reservations. It appears that on low-end prices, they are comparable to Amazon on net sales commission. However, their "service fees" appear to take a much bigger bite from author revenues on higher priced books. Their "Terms of Service" say: "Journal-Store calculates royalties as 70% of the retail price, less any transactional fees. Transactional fees include: electronic distribution, and/or any fees generated by PayPal. These fees can vary per transaction, since the minimum fee charged by PayPal is 33¢ cents no matter what the overall total is. So, if your book was to sell for 99¢ cents, and the customer only bought one book, the calculation would be; 99¢ minus 33¢, total 66¢ times 70%, total paid to author equals 46¢. This assumes that the total transaction fee indeed equals 33¢. Journal-Store does not control the fees charged by PayPal, and those fees can be subject to change."
Unless I'm overtired, that appears to say you net 46 percent instead of 70-percent that amazon pays. On a $5 sale that's $2.30 versus Amazon's $3.50 for the same book. I.e., you make $1.20 less per book. Ouch. On 100 books that would be $120 less from Journal-Store. Just my observations for whatever they're worth.

I'm not all that savvy with numbers, but what you are saying could very well be true, I just thought I would share another outlet for people to sell their books. I know there are those out there who do not like Amazon, and this is another venue for them to possibly make a sale, and $2.30 is better than nothing!! :)

I go through Amazon, BN and Smashwords. Smashwords goes everywhere, but I kept Amazon and BN out for some reason. I know folks dont like the meatgrinder, but I used their formatting guide. For novels, it really isn't too bad. I've actually had a few sales in the iBook store.

I have no issues with the Meat Grinder, but I have had a lot of practice with converting books, but I do know many people go insane, even with the style guide! :)

Keep JournalStone in mind if for no other reason than to have another place people could run into your book, and it's free for you!! :)

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on where to go from here with the social network PR thing. To be blunt, people are tired of it. They don't like the broadcasting of blatant self-promotion. So it has to be targeted to those who might be looking for a book. Has anyone had any experience using a fan page on Face Book? I've got one set up, but I haven't figured out how to use it without spamming everyone I know, and I'd rather not do that.

I think joining groups like this to meet people who may know of places you can go is a great place to start. Go to groups or places where people expect things to be thrown at them. GoodReads, LibraryThing, FaceBook, Twitter, Digg, StumbleUpon are all great places to start, and the more people you know, the more you may have a chance where one or two people will tell someone and that person will tell someone...

Paul wrote: "I'd like to hear people's thoughts on where to go from here with the social network PR thing. To be blunt, people are tired of it. They don't like the broadcasting of blatant self-promotion. So it ..."

Paul, although I'm also an author who needs to promote my book, I agree with you. Social networking is a new phenomenon and everyone says it's the way to go. Like you, I get offended, not just with book promos, but with the constant blather. Why would I want to know what someone I've never met had for breakfast or that they work for a miserable boss?
I've also followed the advice of some fellow authors who indicate social networking is the way to go for promotion. So far, I haven't experienced any bump in sales. I'm also tired of reading author promos that tell you the title of their next book and how many pages they've dashed off in the last four hours.
Several years ago I wrote a trade paperback book on Self-Promotion for Authors. My wife wants me to update it to include social networking. In good conscience, after conducting due diligence in researching the verifiable experiences of others, I find little to update. Social networking is trendy, but I think people are making claims based on what they would like it to be, rather than what it is. I even make inquiries among all the social networking marketing people on LinkedIn asking for data showing marketing results -- apparently there isn't any. I was promised data from several marketers and nothing has been forthcoming.
LinkedIn may be fun and a great hobby, but I view it as an amazing waste of productive time for authors who are trying to write a book, promote a published book and grow their own brand name. I'm sure others on here with totally disagree with me, but after more than 45 years as a journalist, publicist, author and publisher that's my take on the situation.

I obviously am no expert, but without social networking, I would have 0 way of attracting readers. I use twitter, Facebook and recently goodreads. There is such a thing as spamming, but there is also the risk of being invisible. Finding the balance is key.

Also, I just remembered, reviews are supposed to help loads. I have a few pending, so we'll see.

E.R. wrote: "I obviously am no expert, but without social networking, I would have 0 way of attracting readers. I use twitter, Facebook and recently goodreads. There is such a thing as spamming, but there is al..."

E.R., I must respectfully disagree. There are always places you can promote books. Before there was social networking, there was still the Internet and, before that, there were still many places to promote. I spent many years promoting books for major companies, including Harlequin. When I decided to research my book on author self promotion I found authors doing things I never thought of. True they were often only selling 20 or 30 books at a time, but they were getting out there and putting across their message and building their brand. Yes, finding the balance is key. I'm just not sure what that balance is and if it's a universal thing or varying by author and type of book. Believe me, I'd love to hear from any author who's determined that answer. :-)
Best,

Larry

I'd be happy to promote any way that worked. I'd rather be successful than right. :) I've tried getting the local paper to do a review, since the book is locally set. I'll do pretty much anything.

E.R.
Wish I could help by offering something geographically specific, but I've never been to Indiana. How often have you approached local media? Not just daily newspapers, but weeklies, business newspapers, radio and TV stations, etc. If you have a local plot and are a local author, there has to be an angle you can exploit to get exposure.
Don't want to be crass, but there's an old saying about throwing sh-- against the wall until something sticks. It will eventually happen if you're systematic. Once you get the first, you leverage that to get additional exposure.

Good luck.

I haven't had sales increases due to social networking. I placed Facebook Ads for Salt Bowl Death which I have a fanpage for. I generated a lot of interest, but zero sales. If all the people that joined the fanpage had bought a book, I would have made at least a small chunk of change. But as far as I can tell, no one has. My sales have just been generated by family, friends, and the very few people who I have never met, but somehow found out about both my books. I just did a giveaway here for both, so hopefully that spurs sales. Honestly, with my income, I have no idea what else to do. I stopped the Facebook ad because it wasn't being very productive. So far word of mouth is the only avenue that has worked in the slightest.

I'm on Twitter, Facebook, and Goodreads. I've used them since I put my first book up in August 2010. Sales were slow, slow, slow until the first of the year. Now they are climbing and the book is in Amazon's top 100 in 3 categories and ranks from the mid 400s to the mid 500s. Facebook Ad, Google Ad were not productive. I have a largely unviewed website. I don't blog. Patience and persistence. Look for writers groups on Facebook. You meet interesting people and learn helpful info.

Good advice Pat. My book just came out two weeks ago and people are already asking me how sales are going :) Patience and persistence. I'm finding an amazing support network via twitter and FB.

Also, in response to the initial post, my friends who are traditionally published are working just as hard at self-promotion! It's sometimes painful, but necessary.

Cypher, Pat and Johanna, as I said in my book: Self-Promotion for Authors. "Welcome to the wonderful world of self-promotion...
"The average author probably won’t do as good a job handling publicity as a professional publicist. There are notable exceptions such as J.A. Konrath who devotes massive amounts of time to promoting his books. “When you write a book, it’s your name on the cover. You should be the one who dictates its success or failure. It’s your book. It’s your job to sell it,“ he points out. Konrath has written numerous short stories and is the author of the Jack Daniels series of mystery novels...
"As an author, you’re concerned with promoting your name, not that of a corporate entity. Even promoting your individual book is secondary. Book title sales typically peak within weeks of being released...
"Your prime concern should be promoting yourself so your next book does even better due to author-name recognition. For instance: When was the last time you heard anyone say: I love the stuff written by that guy who wrote “The Shining,” or the “Dark Tower” series. I never have. They’ll tell you they love Stephen King. Ditto for any other successful author you care to mention...
"Writers and authors are, by nature, reluctant to get out in the spotlight. Ours is, after all, a solitary existence. But to succeed, you must overcome that reticence and start blowing your own horn. No one else will do it for you – at least not on a consistent basis, day after day, for the next year, before your first book reaches booksellers..."

Word of mouth is always the best way to help a self pub author. Writer, reader, and reviewers groups are all great places to look for people who are willing to help you. Great reviews help to boost sales as well, if you do not have many reviews on your book, you may want to look into having a few really well spoken and experienced reviewers read and write reviews for you to post on all of the big sites (and even the small sites help as well)!

If you are looking for a great site with TONS of reviewers, go see http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/4... here on GoodReads, it's a fantastically fun group, with loads of people interested in helping! :)

This is a great discussion. I'm glad I started it. Being indie isn't easy. Word of mouth is key Amy, you are right. Reviews and friends are invaluable.

I've seen some sales from FB and twitter, nothing big. I am looking to break something local. That's where I think my foothold will come there.

Also, I am writing a sequel. You need to have stuff out there for people to find.

My hope is that people who have read my books and liked them will tell others about them. I know that a good bio is supposed to help with exposure, but I sometimes wonder, do people think that because I do modeling I'm airheaded and can't weave a good story? Or do they think that my bio is a complete farce because I claim to be in law enforcement and alternative modeling? Seriously, how many people do you know who do both? I'm the only one I know of. So does it make me sound interesting or does it hurt my sales? I have no idea. I just know that I wrote what I am. Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.

I think having more than one book out there does help as well, I know I am one of those people who like to read series books more than stand alone novels, so having both types of books are good to have available. And always remember, a sale is a sale. Sometimes just selling to the right person can mean all the difference in the world! You can do it E.R.!!

Cypher wrote: "My hope is that people who have read my books and liked them will tell others about them. I know that a good bio is supposed to help with exposure, but I sometimes wonder, do people think that bec..."

Unique attributes alone won't sell books. You need to develop a persona, bio and photos that appeal to the audience you want to reach. One of my favorite TV shows is NCIS and you appear to be a real life counterpart to Abby, the lab expert on the show. Perhaps that's an angle you need to explore in a favorable way. You might want to think about a different picture unless your efforts are focused on Goth or other alternate lifestyles. I suspect that photo may be over the top for a lot of prospective readers. Many authors build a persona designed to help sell books. Suggest you ask yourself what you can do to make book buyers more receptive to your public persona. Hope that helps. Just my opinion. Best, Larry

I can completly sympathize! I have already written three books and I still trying to get my books off the ground. However read this author Steve Weber he gives great advice and how-to in promoting ur book Steve Weber
God knows he's helped me a lot

Larry wrote: "Cypher wrote: "My hope is that people who have read my books and liked them will tell others about them. I know that a good bio is supposed to help with exposure, but I sometimes wonder, do people..."

:) I love Abby! I have a ton of different looks with my writing persona. Darkest Before Dawn is actually geared more toward the Goth alternative. Salt Bowl Death on the other hand, is more Western Horror. BTW, the female character on the front cover is me. Today, I'm doing pin-up and vintage photoshoots. I think the main issue is that I mix genres in a way that most people aren't comfortable with. But I don't intend to change my style of writing. I've never really heard of people going off of writer's images alone. Most of the authors works that I've read, I have no idea what they look like or anything else about them.

Laura wrote: "I can completly sympathize! I have already written three books and I still trying to get my books off the ground. However read this author Steve Weber he gives great advice and how-to in promoting ..."

You may also want to take a look at my book, Self-Promotion for Authors based on my years as a book publicist and journalist. It also contains suggestions from a dozen successful authors on how they achieved success.

Cypher wrote: "Larry wrote: "Cypher wrote: "My hope is that people who have read my books and liked them will tell others about them. I know that a good bio is supposed to help with exposure, but I sometimes won..."

Hardcover books often have the author's picture on the inside rear fold of the dustcover. Paperbacks sometimes have the author's picture and a brief bio at the end of the book.

Larry wrote: "Cypher wrote: "Larry wrote: "Cypher wrote: "My hope is that people who have read my books and liked them will tell others about them. I know that a good bio is supposed to help with exposure, but ..."

My paperbacks do have my picture on the back. But I've found that people are more interested in the synopsis of the book. If I would have gone by Stephen King's picture instead of the synopsis, I never would have read any of his books. To me he looks like a computer geek instead of a horror writer. It didn't seem to hurt his career.

Cypher wrote: "Larry wrote: "Cypher wrote: "Larry wrote: "Cypher wrote: "My hope is that people who have read my books and liked them will tell others about them. I know that a good bio is supposed to help with ..."

Absolutely right about Stephen King. He was a Maine schoolteacher. As a society we place too much value on looks. Think about it, Einstein, Enrico Firmi, Abraham Lincoln. Hardly poster boys for sex appeal-but oh what minds. Conversely, why do people seem impressed by the thoughts of entertainers and movie stars. Just because of a pretty face and remembering script lines? Yikes. ;-)

Easy on the geeks. We have feelings too. :)

E.R. wrote: "Easy on the geeks. We have feelings too. :)"

Not only am I a geek myself, but I married one, too. Believe me, I can hold my own in most 'geek' conversations. Except when you start getting heavy into computer jargon, then I'm only partially knowledgeable. But start talking sci-fi, table-top gaming, or RPGs and I can keep up no problem. :)

Sweet. Geek-speak is an art form. You would think I'd be better at Internet promotion.it's my natural habitat.

Cypher, what kind of table top gaming? Fantasy? I used to be into WWII wargaming.

When I had the time I did Warhammer 40K and Warhammer Fantasy as well as some Chronopia. Right now, I'm just buying models to paint for Wargods of Egyptus. My husband does a lot of table top stuff as well and has been doing a great deal of WWII wargaming with German military and British Army.

Cool. What size figures do you use? I mostly have 20 mm. (?) figures for HO scale wargaming, as well as several hundred armored vehicles, most still unpainted. Just not enough time to do everything. Sigh.

Well, with fantasy, the figures aren't uniform because some characters are much larger than others, some have wings, etc. The average is around 28mm. I don't have a ton of time to paint either. I have a lot of unpainted models and there's a new game (which I can't think of the name) which has more nice models that I want. I thought that when I graduated in May, I would have more time. Instead, I'm busy writing my third book and doing a bunch of other things I didn't have time for before. Like actually spending time with my husband.

Spending time with a spouse is probably the most important thing you can do, other than raising children. A lot of people put family after spouse, then wonder why they break up. Trust me on this. I learned the hard way. I'm on my third wife.

The only children I have walk on four legs and have fur. But I've been married for almost eleven years and we try to make time in our schedules to spend time with each other. Even if that means just sitting at home. And we discuss writing all the time. He likes to write, too. I just can't convince him to let me compile his stories into a book. They're really funny and I think a lot of people would enjoy them, but he hasn't relented yet.

Fur is good. I have three dogs. I'm staying out of marital discussions about someone's writing. I get in enough trouble without that. :-))

Okay. I need opinions and any knowledge that anyone can give me about an email I received today. Allbooks Review sent me an email about Darkest Before Dawn offering me their promotional reviewing package. Here's the thing: I have never contacted them. At least not that I remember. Why would they send me an unsolicited email? Does anyone have any experience with this organization?

I looked them up, and I would be wary of any company that is charging you to have reviews done on your book. You can get amazing reviews, for free, by contacting people here on GoodReads.

For a company that has supposedly been around since 2000, they don't really have anything showing their "clients" of their past successes and people who have been pleased with their service. I would suggest caution here, Cypher.

"Promotional Reviewing Package"...reminds me of writers' conferences: "Pay $500 for two minutes with an agent". If we are right, and the world is really changing to a model where writers interact directly with readers, who will believe a paid review? Imagine a day when a review usually begins "I bought this book and here is what I think of it..."

I don't doubt that PR works, and I am especially bad at it. But anyone charging me money has to be able to show results.

I was kind of figuring the same thing. I've already spent a good amount on my own advertising and all it got me was people on my fan pages. No actual sales to show for it.

E.R. wrote:My advice to anyone considering self-pubbing is to get out there early, so you can get some of the heavy lifting done early.

That's great advice, E.R. Unfortunately, it's like parenting, the trial-by-error/fire usually comes first. I'm not so sure that is a bad thing (as long as no one gets hurt.)

Your writing bio mirrors mine: first novel, no previous social media presence, self-published. I am learning, day by day and enjoying the experience.

But when I was writing, that was full time work. As you know, marketing can take up the entire day. While working on a first novel, learning about marketing might discourage a budding author. I look at it as a case of "If I'd known then what I know now ..."