SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Holy moly, I just happened to go to Costco today, and this was there!!! Dammit, I'm only 1/4 into Shantarum, and don't know what to do. Drop everything for this eagerly awaited Stephenson? If I buy a book, let alone HC, that means the author is a must-read-immediately.

I know there's other Stephenson fans here, let this thread be devoted to Anathem which I'm sure we'll all be reading shortly. Anyone finish it yet?

I've got it on hold at the library. I'm at the top of the list so I'm just waiting on them to receive their copies. I can't wait. It sounds awesome.

Ben, I'm at the top of the list at my library too, I was just so shocked to see it and coveting it so badly, I had to buy it. Now I'm deliberating whether to wait for my library copy to come in, and then I'll buy it when it comes out in trade - I don't really like thick hard backs...but I may not hold out the night!

I've got my copy now but it'll be a bit before I start. I'm currently about half-way through The Diamond Age which I'm really enjoying but it's taking me a long time to finish.

I love everything I've read by him (glad you're enjoying Diamond Age!) and look forward to Anthem. It's been getting so-so reviews, so I'm interested to hear what any of you all think about it.

I think I'll pick it up if I see a 40% off sticker on it at Borders. ;)

I've only read great reviews, and it's got a 4.7 rating here! I've decided to keep my copy, even the libes came thru. I'm finishing up Shantarum, and then the fun with Anathem begins. If Shantarum wasn't so darn good, I would have dropped it immediately.

I've finally made it to page 100. At this pace, it'll take me about two months. Hopefully I'll be getting more time to read again soon.

It is going much faster now though. Those first twenty or so pages took forever. I'm really enjoying it so far, which is weird since very little has happened.

Oh I guess I should update this!

Yes, I found it a very hard beginning, even more so because I was coming to it straight from another deeply engrossing long dense book, Shantarum.

Stephenson jumps right into another world, that has a very complex long history with it's own sociological structure AND it's own terminology, made up words that are crucial for comprehension. He provides definitions for these words; tho they are slow in coming they do provide enough context to keep you going. However, because I was reading in fits and jerks at the time my retention was not the greatest! Too late I saw there's a glossary at the end - it's tucked in before an additional addendum so it's not immediately apparent it exists.

But like Ben, after about pg 100 I started to get into the swing of things, and got completely hooked. Even before that, there's enough clarity and interest to keep you reading, it's just a bit harder. Everything sinks in and then it becomes another Stephenson book that I can't put down.

I'm now almost at 300, and it's become cherished, I'm doing all my errands and chores at a fast pace so that I can devote my evenings to reading, guilt-free.

So Ben, yeah, after that slow beginning it becomes a very fast read.

I'm going to be stuck at the airport next Thursday and then on a plane with nothing to do but devote 6 concentrated hours to this one!

Here's a great Stephenson interview.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/bn-revi...

Kind of long, but covers a lot of topics.

I'm working my way though it. My advice is to just go with the flow at the beginning and not get too hung up on the new words he's throwing at you, they do get integrated at some point. If you spend all of your time flipping back and forth to the 20 page (!) glossary, you'll go nuts. The plot is very slow to advance, but the characters and the world are interesting. So far I've found it enjoyable, but not engrossing. I've been putting it down every 100 pages or so to read something else, then plunging back in.

Ben what a great interview! Have you listened to the music at all? I've saved them to listen to tomorrow.

I finally finished Anathem, it's a slow read. First you have the beginning 100 pages, then you slip into the world with greater ease. But then come the dialogues about meta- and quantum physics! Oh my! NOT to be rushed through.

A very different book for Stephenson, and I think the interviewer got it completely - slow and stately, instead of Stephenson's usual madcap rush and torrent of words. And the plot is very tight, with no sideshows, like the Baroque Cycle did.

I gave it 4 stars, I'm giving it sometime to see whether it sticks. So far, days later, it's still sticking, like a calm, gracious Gregorian chant, but more Mathic, not so religious. Same thing in a way - same beauty beyond us.

Would you recommend this book to someone who normally reads fantasy and occasionally reads science fiction? Is Anathem the best first book to read by Neal Stephenson? Or should I start with something else, like Snow Crash or The Diamond Age: Or, a Young Lady's Illustrated Primer?

Jon: I haven't read 'Anathem', but by far Stephenson's most readable work among his prior efforts is 'Snow Crash' and it would normally be my recommendation for a first read.

That said, for someone that normally avoids sci-fi I wouldn't recommend 'Snow Crash'. Snow Crash is a very stylized setting with adolescent sensibilities, and it might be off putting to you. If you can put up with (or even enjoy) a movie like 'The Matrix', you'll probably be fine with 'Snow Crash'. If you can't, it would probably get in the way of your enjoyment.

'Diamond Age' is probably my least favorite Neal Stephenson work, as the second half of the book devolves into a muddled didactic mess with no really empathetic primary characters - indeed almost noone you could call a main character.

My favorite work thus far is The Baroque Cyle, but this absolutely sprawling 3000 page history geek romp through the early modern isn't everyones idea of light reading. I loved it, but I'm wierd.

As I said, I haven't read Anathem (though I plan too), but my guess from the plot outline and Stephenson's growing maturity as a writer is that you'd find it a fairly readable blurring of science fiction and fantasy. Besides, if you like fantasy, you really should get more into Sci-Fi. The best fantasy may be better than the best sci-fi in this critics never very humble opinion, but sci-fi on the whole has more good and worthy books than fantasy as a whole. Currently I find the fantasy genera to be really thin.

I think The Diamond Age would work very well for someone with fantasy leanings. After all, a large part of it is about a fantasy/fairy tale book. I would say it wasn't quite as good as Snow Crash or Anathem but it was good and he managed to create a very cool world.

Matt, I love The Baroque Cycle, too, but dear lord, I'd love to find anyone who considers it "light reading"! They will completely impress me.

I've been stalled on the third volume for over a year now, I keep meaning to pick it back up and finish the whole thing finally. I really want to move on to his other works, but stubbornly refuse to until I've completed this one. The amount of research that Stephenson did on it and the amount of intelligence he has to have to remember it all and weave it together like this just astounds me.

The best book I think is Snow Crash even for someone with fantasy leanings. I think its really a very readable book and is by far the best cyberpunk book out there. Plus its ideas seem to me to be very accessible. You can also skip some of the inserts on the meta universe if you choose. Another Stephenson book, Zodiac, which is not pure sf but really a thriller about ecological terrorism is also a good place to start as its light reading.

I really didnt like Diamond Age. One of Stephenson's issues as an author is his endings, and the latter half of Diamond Age was not my cup of tea so I cannot comment on that, but I completely agree with Brooke about the Baroque Cycle in that its too huge as a first induction. Anathem, just got a mixed review from the New York Times Book Review, where the reviewed stated that the book was too much a thought experiment.

Thanks for all the insights and recommendations! Now I want to read all four of them!

I need to learn how not to sleep ... so I can read 24 hours a day! :)

I actually enjoyed Diamond Age alot. Haven't read Snow Crash yet, started it, couldn't get into it. May have been the wrong time.

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER for Anathem:










OK the end. Great and all, but I admit I got a bit lost with the quantum physics. Or was it meta-physics? Any recommended reading for me in layman's terms for meta-physics, I already have good ones for quantum. Anywaaaayy...

SO whats with Fra Jad? Different time/space exist within the same cosmos? I thought we were only talking about different cosmos, like brane theory. I do remember Stephenson describing different points on the line, and that's where I got a bit lost. So is Fra Jad still alive on some of those alternatives?

I've read all of the books he's written since Snow Crash and have enjoyed them all (besides Anathem). If I were going to recommend a Stevenson book to start with...

If they were primarily a fantasy reader - hands down it would be Diamond Age. It's a fast read and very easy to get into. I will say that I think it appeals more to women/girls than men/boys. Regardless, I really enjoyed it.

for someone that prefers scifi - I'd recommend Snow Crash. It's wonderful.

Anathem SPOILER below:









Lori, I think we can assume the Fraa Jad is an Incanter and can basically manipulate the outcome of events through his ability to perceive multiple cosmi. I'm not sure about him being dead. I think it was mentioned that he may be out there somewhere. Since it seems to be made clear the Fraa Lodoghir is a Rhetor, I think we can assume that is where the whole story of Jad not making it past launch came from. With the whole "control the future" and "change the past" stuff going on, it was certainly confusing.

Anathem was my first Stephenson book and I have to say I loved it. A science fiction novel as a thought experiment on metaphysics, philosophy, the branching consequences of actions taken and not taken, and so on?! That is what good science fiction is for, IMO; creating an alternate universe that enables us to better understand/analyze our own.

I agree that not getting caught up in the new terminology is probably the best way to go. Though reading the forward certainly helped me get a broad idea of the structure of the world.


SPOILERS BELOW (sort of) - RHETOR/INCANTER DISCUSSION
As far as Rhetors and Incanters go, I think there is more there than simply saying they either control the future/past or travel through it, respectively.

I'm writing this as I think it, but it seems more exact to imagine that Rhetors are able to contextualize the various data they receive from the other Narratives and use it in a way that affects the one they're in. While Incanters are able to move through Narratives equally, but are unable to "use" those experiences and knowledge gained within another specific Narrative. Fraa Jaad needed Erasmus to bring "back" the knowledge gleaned from his meeting the high-ranking Alien (the name/title excapes me).

I haven't fully gotten there, but this feels like it ties in to the Rhetor/Incanter, Procian/Halikaarnon, Syntatic/Semantic definitions and divisions.

Anyone want to start a Rhetor/Incanter thread?

Should we start another thread or now use this as a discussion?





SPOILER
Ah yes the Rhetor/Incanter stuff. I'd like to know more basic metaphysics. You see, it was all the Narratives that left me befuddled.

As for Fra Jad, remember that he was shot, yet when in the meeting with the alien (Prad?) he was fine. That's what confused me. Altho Erasmus figures in the different narratives that if he and Jad both fell to incapacity due to the oxygen differences they would have been taken to the leader, as did happen. So does Erasmus only remember the shot, and then Jad took him along to his other narrative? GAH.

Also, did anyone else have the impression that Orolo also became an Incanter and was not dead either.

I gave this book 4 stars, meaning to wait awhile to give it 5 if it stuck. It stuck!

Lori, I just came across the Anathem Wiki last night. It has an article on the Battle of the Daban Urnud, which may or may not help clear up some of your questions. I think the more I read the more confused I get, though.

Ben, I finally had time to read that, great link, but you're right, some parts of it confused me more! I completely missed out that in some of the Narratives all the cell members but them are killed. I also didn't get that in others Jad used the jeejah to detonate the Everything Killers- altho I knew he had that special jeejah. I plan on reading that part again, even tho I already read it 3x before while reading the book!

But one thing is now made clear - the Incanters can change the future because they can live in all the numerous Narratives, and then pick which one that the future proceeds from. Altho even that is confusing, which I've pondered over before. Is there really just one "main" Narrative?

I am coming in late to this discussion

(view spoiler)[

I think that Incanters can change the future and Rhetors can change the past; that is, they (Rhetors) can choose which timelines led up to the present one. There is a discussion about this when he talks about the dinosaur skeleton they found when they were building the parking garage- it is implied that the millenian Rhetors changed the past so that it never existed. This is one event which led up to the Third Sack. There is a discussion later in the book about how all of the Sacks were preceded by the development of a new Praxis; presumably, prior to the third sack, the avout developed a Praxis for manipulating time-streams (or whatever you want to call them). (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[


This may be a gross over-simplification, but it seems to me that the Incanters/Rhetors Praxis is analogous to save points in a video game. I think of the contents of the save file (a string of numbers) as being a point in configuration space. (hide spoiler)]

Stephenson supposedly paced this novel for readers unfamiliar with the world-building format that normally occurs in a complex SF work. I couldn't remember whether this was a direct statement of Stephenson's, or a reviewer's comment, so I found the interview done recently by Locus (not in this excerpt, but still worth reading):

http://www.locusmag.com/2008/Issue09_...