The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of July 11th - July 17th, we are reading approximately the next 33 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

Week Four - July 11th - July 17th -> PART ONE - Chapter FIVE p. 92 - 125
FIVE - "This Is the End of the World": The Black Death

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL



by Barbara W. Tuchman

Folks, I am in the midst of some international travel and my connection capabilities will be varied and sometimes sporadic for three weeks. But I will get on when and how I can.

I have read this section with great interest and really can make no comments in particular - I will see what the rest of you say,

I will note however that due to her referring to the persecution of the Jews as an attempt at a "final solution" using those words I did Google her and find that she had been Jewish. So I would wonder a bit if other historians might not have been less focused on the Jewish part of the catastrophe of the bubonic plague.

Yes Vince...it appears that Tuchman was especially sensitive to the Jewish situation no matter what the time period.

While Bentley is occasional out of communications I will try and assist here as required. Is everyone still enjoying Barbara Tuchman's style in the book and enjoying her narrative? I read her book over 10-15 years ago but I recall that she really drew me into the history of the period, I hope that’s the case for those reading her book now.

I found this chapter really interesting. I've read some about the plague, but I didn't know about the Jews being blamed and to what extent. I found the flagellants also fascinating.

Hi Theresa, it seemed in this period and in others in history that the local Jews were always held accountable for any disaster that occurred. Like you I also find the flagellants a fascinating sect.

I knew the Jews had been persecuted during the plague but I never realized the extent of the slaughter, particularly in Germany. It's amazing to me that Jews returned to these communities after such an extensive extermination.

Jeffrey wrote: "I knew the Jews had been persecuted during the plague but I never realized the extent of the slaughter, particularly in Germany. It's amazing to me that Jews returned to these communities after su..."

Same here, Jeffrey. I was more aware of the type of persecution that Sir Walter Scott featured in Ivanhoe. I did not realize that there was such large scale slaughter before the Holocaust. After reading that section of this chapter, it seemed to me that the biggest thing holding people back from a full "final solution" was a lack of technology to do it. Reading about this kind of lethal persecution just makes me shudder and cry.

by Walter Scott

Overall thoughts and comments on this chapter:

I was amazed at the stats and descriptions of the Black Death. How horrifying.

I was actually impressed with what doctors were able to do in the 14th century (listed on page 106). Although some of the common beliefs of the time were definitely backward, such as the belief that "foul odors were efficacious" (page 107).

The whole flagellant thing was, was... twisted. It is bad enough to "punish" yourself like that. And really over-the-top to do it as a public performance.

On page 122 the Cardinal-Legate is "shot at by a sniper." When I first read that, my mind automatically thought of someone with a rifle. And then I remember what century we were in, and I thought that sounded weird. Then I finished the sentence and realized that it was an arrow shot. I don't think I've ever heard a man with bow-and-arrow called a sniper before!

The economic effects of the lowered population after the plague were fascinating.

Elizabeth, I too did not know many of the facts of the Black Death. Absolutely terrifying.

Times change and the terminology and meanings change with the centuries. What a sniper used in the 14th century seems somewhat mundane to what unfortunately we have seen globally. Not sure if that is something we can call progress but more ignorance on a bigger scale.

On You Tube, there is a History Channel documentary called The Plague which deals with the Black Death:

Here is the link to Part I:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IjhQD...

Interesting article on the origins of the Black Death:

http://www.medievalists.net/2011/08/2...

Some books that might be interesting reading:

by John Aberth

Not sure why his photo is not on goodreads:

Another medievalist historian:

by Kelly DeVries

The Plague:

Part II on the History Channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSXW1...

Part III on the History Channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv_zIS...

These segments are all on youtube.

I think the book on the plague that sounds most interesting is the one that says it covers plagues throughout the history of the world. At least I think it would be an advantage to be able to compare a given plague with the severity (on various levels) of other plagues.

Although I'm not sure I want to know that much about a plague. Tuchman says this book started with her researching the Black Death. I'm glad she decided to mention other parts of 14th century life. :)

This plague unfortunately changed the world; 30 to 60% of the people in Europe died for example; can you imagine 60% of the population of the United States being eliminated in one fell swoop? At the time, it took Europe 150 years to recover.

I think all of the books look fascinating if one just had the time.

The section on the Plague is both fascinating and repellent -- the Biggest Train Wreck Ever. Tuchman references the fact that one symptom of the plague was a sense of despair and/or depression. This struck me as curious. Given the other symptoms, and the near-100% mortality rate, wouldn't a touch of despair be expected in its victims?

It is amazing to me that society kept on to the extent it did, given the huge losses in a relatively short time. I cannot imagine what that would be like. (I wonder if it would be harder to "carry on" now, to the extent that knowledge is so much more specialized in our society than it was in 14th century Europe? I'm imagining that if certain key people in an area died, taking their expertise with them, society could be quite crippled, communications could be cut off, electrical systems could fail, etc.)

Good point on the despair, Mary Ellen. Kinda hard to judge, now, if there was any additional despair as an inherent part of the disease.

If such a thing were to happen today, I think we'd not only loose population from the given plague, but also from the panics it would inspire. Not that people didn't panic back then, surely there were some. But we are less accepting of death today, and have way too much ability to know everything that is going on. Back then, if villages were completely wiped out, it still took time before the neighbors realized it and still longer before the news filtered elsewhere.

True. Your comment reminded me of the SARS outbreak a few years ago, and the immediate panic that erupted. Not only do we have 24/7 access to news from around the world, we also have media who need the sensational to keep their ratings up and their advertisers happy, so they tend to exaggerate the importance of any threat just to keep us tuned in.