Christian Goodreaders discussion

Most of us are aware of a pervasive trend towards replacing face-to-face human interactions with online substitutes, in all areas of life and especially in commerce. For the book trade specifically, many people feel that this poses a threat to the continued survival of physical bookstores. Now, some of you may think, so what? Others may think it's a shame, but we can't do anything about it. But if you see this as a generally unhealthy trend and aren't resigned to it, this challenge is for you.

Early this year, in one of my other Goodreads groups, a friend of mine proposed that we all commit to buy at least two brand-new books this year from a real bookstore. (She included bookstores in general, big and little, though my interest personally is more in the survival of the small home-owned stores than the giant chains.) I made that commitment for myself, and mean to continue it in the following years. But I've only recently thought of spreading the challenge to other groups. (Sorry I waited until the year is half over; if you want to, you can take it as a challenge for 2012.)

Like any other aspect of the business world, physical bookstores stand or fall based on profitability; so our decisions about how and where we spend our consumer dollars DO make a difference --small for an individual, to be sure, but greatly increased if it's multiplied by even a fraction of the number of people who are on Goodreads! So, if you can afford it and feel led to join in this challenge, I'd really encourage you to. (And if your TBR pile already rivals Mt. Everest, remember, books also make great gifts!)

Because of the genre I read (fantasy and some SF), my local bookstore (no, wait ... there isn't a local bookstore anymore in Leavenworth) doesn't/didn't stock novels of interest to me. Yes, I could have had them pre-order it, I suppose. But I'm very tech savvy, even to being more electronically 'hip' than my kids (and it goes without saying that I'm way more warped than my progenitors). I have one used bookstore in Leavenworth that I visit once a month, but it's not a place I would recommend (too dusty, dark and looks like a lost Hoarders episode).

I used to purchase some new titles from Amazon, but their business practices eventually forced me to boycott them completely. Since I'm within walking distance of a Barnes & Noble brick-and-mortar store from where I work, I opted a couple of years ago to purchase a Membership with them and now almost exclusively purchase books from B&N (mostly online since Membership also means free shipping with no minimum purchase necessary). I also recently received a Nook Color as a gift, so I tend to purchase ebooks from them as well.

For the handful of authors I heartily support, I purchase their first edition hardcovers from a local independent book seller (local to them - so that I can also have a signed first edition). This practice usually costs me way more than if I had pre-ordered it from B&N online because I rarely get the discount (40% on hardcovers for B&N members) and the shipping is usually exorbitant ($10 or more).

While I feel the pain of independent bookstores, the publishing industry is changing, just like many other industries before it.

Does anyone miss telegrams? Local hardware stores (we still have a locally owned small one in Leavenworth that Wal-Mart did NOT manage to kill)? Land lines? Ice boxes? The milk man?

And some practices within the publishing industry appall me. The waste of returns (ripping off the front cover, which is returned to the publisher for full credit and then discarding the rest of the book) tops my list.

So, I'm not sure I'm much help for your Challenge, Werner. I do what I can for the authors I love, and support my book reading habit as economically and conveniently as possible for all the rest of my purchases.

Jon, thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights. Lots of food for thought there! Of course, this particular challenge isn't for everybody; as I said in another group, readers who prefer to get their books online can't be expected to save traditional bookstores. But it actually sounds like you ARE already helping independent book stores, even if they're not located near you, with your purchases of first edition hardbacks, and at considerable cost to yourself. Kudos! If all of us did what you're doing, it certainly would help the bookstores (and the authors!).

We all have different circumstances, different needs as readers, and a duty to be good stewards of our money (which is really God's money in our care). In many cases, buying books in a face-to-face setting (even when they're not-stocked titles that you have to special order) is cheaper than buying online, because the shipping costs are steep in the latter method. But your arrangement with B and N takes care of that problem. Like you, I read a lot in the speculative genres; but that tends to make me buy more of those type of books, because the library where I work tends not to stock them.

I totally agree with you about the appalling practices in the publishing industry, especially the one you mentioned. If I understand correctly, that particular abomination is mostly the province of the big mega-bookstore chains, which dictate it in their purchasing contracts. (Truthfully, the demise of the huge chains wouldn't greatly bother me personally; I view them as more of a cancer on the book trade than the "mainstream" of it.) Some changes enabled by the computer revolution have positive potential for the book trade, IMO; and I believe that POD publishing will eventually revolutionize it for the better.

As you suggested above, changing technology brings changes to industries, which may be for the better or the worse. Only dead things don't change. But I guess what I want to see is change that's consciously guided and controlled by the majority of people, not engineered and rammed down our throats by an oligopoly for its own profit; and change that preserves things worth preserving instead of taking a wrecking ball to them. And for me, the things worth preserving include opportunity for small tradespeople to make a living, freedom to conduct business with a local store instead of Juggernaut Own-the-Earth Inc., business conducted on a human scale, and an economic system that's not totally dependent on availability of a high technology and fossil fuel supply that may not be either ecologically responsible or sustainable. The replacement of ice boxes by the refrigerator, to me, was a reasonable change that doesn't threaten those permanent goods, and carries enough benefits to offset its dislocations. On the other hand, the convenience of having milk delivered to my door (and I'm old enough to remember that, though not iceboxes!) strikes me as worthwhile, and I fail to see traveling a couple of miles one way to buy it as a delightful improvement. I don't "miss" land lines, because I still use them, both at home and at work. Cell phones, and being at everybody's beck and call wherever I am or whatever I'm doing, don't appeal to either my wife or myself; we own one we consider useful to have if our daughter needs to reach us in an emergency or if we have an accident or other emergency on the highway, and that's the extent of it. And our locally-owned hardware store gets my business (what there is of it); I see Wal-Mart's killing of local businesses as an abomination and a curse, and I've been boycotting Wal-Mart for several years. Those answers to your questions won't speak for everybody; but they help to indicate where I'm coming from on this. :-)

We have some differences of perspective, as different people necessarily will; but I suspect we're not as far apart on some of these issues as we may initially seem!

Oh, I forgot to mention I boycott WalMart as well. :)

You're right! We are not far apart at all.

Jon, on that note, could you elaborate (for the benefit of any other folks who might be as ignorant on this subject as I am) about the Amazon.com business practices that forced you to boycott them? I've never done any business with them directly, either as buyer or seller (they're one of several venues where I have writings for sale, but that arrangement was entirely made by my publisher), so don't know much about their practices and how they compare with those of others; and you've gotten my curiosity whetted. :-)

First, Amazon is 'killing' independent (and huge box) bookstores with their pricing, just like Wal-Mart did to small locally-owned businesses (like hardware stores).

Second, Amazon prices and acts like a monopoly. Remember the ebook pricing war a year or so ago when Amazon and WalMart were pricing ebooks at or under $10 bucks, to the infuriation of the publishers (and their authors). This is another monopolistic tactic the name of which escapes me (something like loss-leading where they sell something undercost at a loss to woo shoppers into their store or site). It can also force their competitors into bankruptcy since the competitor cannot maintain, match or beat that price indefinitely.

Third, whenever the publishers (and/or their authors) attempt to negotiate, Amazon mysteriously has a 'glitch' (a deliberate one I'm sure), where an entire publisher's catalog will 'disappear' from Amazon's site (preventing sales).

That's all I can quote off the top of my head. Similar in principle to my banning of Wal-Mart, although that also includes an attempt NOT to purchase anything made in China (which is nigh impossible these days, regardless of where I shop).

Jon, thanks for that information! (Those are the same kinds of practices that turned me off Wal-Mart.) I've actually considered getting Amazon's free Kindle app for the PC later (after my PC gets some needed work) and buying one 99-cent e-story from them, solely so I can be registered as a customer and thus permitted to "like" books and post reviews on their site. IMO, that could be a way of doing a useful kindness for some authors I want to support (since readers may well just window-shop at Amazon, or check out ratings and reviews, without actually buying there). But even if I do that, I guarantee that I'll never buy anything else from them!

You and I both try to boycott Chinese products! (And I agree that it's often hard to do --but worthwhile.)

I will try your challenge in 2012, Werner. Two or three books is all I can manage--finances dire.

I mostly buy used books. Two of my three favorite used bookstores closed---one in early 2010--the other just two months ago. (I'd been shopping there for used books for 18 YEARS`)

Anyhow, there is one left---Friendly Used Books, 60th and Maple Street, Omaha. If you buy used and visit Omaha, give them your business.

I do not shop on line--I am too chicken to put my credit card on the net.

And I do try to avoid products made in China! If possible, and it sometimes is not.

Good point about the credit card numbers, Mary JL; Barb and I are really concerned about that, too. The argument is usually made, in rebuttal, that legitimate online book sellers wouldn't give out your credit card number to third parties, and that their computers are "secure." But that ignores the growing use of spyware and rogueware to snoop on what data you enter into your own computer. We know that our computer is infected with a stubborn piece of rogueware that will require rebooting Windows to remove. So we're forewarned, and wouldn't think of ordering anything online from this computer until this is corrected. BUT, we know this only because our local computer service tech happened to discover it when the computer was in the shop some time ago. How long we had it before that --and how many of YOU out there have a similar bug(s) on your PC-- is anybody's guess. (And yes, we have anti-virus and anti-malware protection. It isn't foolproof.)

I'd forgotten this thread was here, until some recent comments about bookstores were made recently on another thread. Since our original discussion in 2011, I've continued to challenge myself to buy a couple of books a year from physical bookstores (see message 1). I'm glad to be able to say that I've met that challenge in each of the years since then, including 2015!

Yes, I try and support small bookstores wherever possible, especially if they support me with signings.

I wonder if more small bookstores had print on demand book machines in the store, if that would help?

Summer, POD technology is a godsend to the publishing industry; but to legally print a copy of a copyrighted book, you normally have to have the author's permission. Publishers, of course, have that, and pay the authors a royalty on the copies sold (or, in the case of a self-publishing author, he/she pays to have copies printed, on demand or otherwise). But it wouldn't be practical for authors to delegate printing rights to bookstores (especially small ones) directly; there would be too many logistical problems from their standpoint. And the logistical problems for booksellers would also be formidable; they'd not only have to print the books at a cost of electricity, ink, and paper, but they'd have to bind them as well, adding another layer of overhead that requires skilled manpower. So I don't see that as a viable business model for bookstores.

However, if the problem this idea is intended to address is the limited stock that smaller bookstores can carry, the fact is that they already can special order most titles that a reader might ask for, even if they don't have the books on the shelf. And when they do this, they absorb the shipping cost; you as the customer pay only the list price. (I recommend using Amazon's free database for browsing books, and then ordering the titles you want from a real store.)

Werner wrote: "Summer, POD technology is a godsend to the publishing industry; but to legally print a copy of a copyrighted book, you normally have to have the author's permission. Publishers, of course, have th..."

I'm talking about an Espresso Book Vending Machine, which prints on demand certain titles on site. It doesn't violate copyright and still pays authors.

Summer, I've never heard of that technology! I admit to not being very computer-savvy, but I'm always glad to learn more. I'll definitely have to do some research on this topic; it sounds highly intriguing!

Just by way of update, I've ordered two books from a brick-and-mortar bookstore already this year so far (both as gifts for my wife). So this makes the sixth year in a row that I've met the challenge to support physical bookstores! I hope others will consider meeting it as well.

Here's an interesting and encouraging article on independent bookstores, from a blog called the Passive Voice, which one of my Goodreads friends regularly reads: http://www.thepassivevoice.com/2016/0... . (This also adds some information to what Summer mentioned above about the Espresso Book Vending Machine.)

Werner wrote: "Here's an interesting and encouraging article on independent bookstores, from a blog called the Passive Voice, which one of my Goodreads friends regularly reads: http://www.thepassivevoice.com/2016..."

Interesting - I have a habit of visiting and buying a book from Independents in my travels. - This year.. Books and Books in Coral Gables, Kramer's in DC, Little Professor Books & Café in Homewood Alabama to name a few. Each is unique and create an atmosphere to entice you to linger and buy.

Guy, that sounds like a great habit to get into!

What do you recommend for a low income person?

I don't have a lot of money and most of the books (and other things) that I buy can be obtained for about half the price by shopping around online.

I don't want to see bookstores gone... but I also don't want to see the money I have gone either.

Robert, good question! I can relate, since I'm not wealthy myself --I make more money than the average person in the county where I live (it's a pretty depressed area), but I'm in the lower middle class with, as I sometimes say, the emphasis on "lower," so I have to consider cost/benefit ratios when I buy anything. This challenge is intended to be something for those who can afford it and feel called to respond, not an obligation for everybody. The thoughts below are just ideas off the top of my head, to think about for whatever they're worth.

Mega-monopolies tend to offer very low prices to undersell their competition as long as they actually have any competition; but once they succeed in totally destroying it, they're able to push the prices back up to what secular economists call the "optimum" price --that is, "optimum" for the seller in terms of profit, not for us (especially if our incomes are near the bottom of the totem pole). So sending them our money may save dollars now, but cost us more later.

For perhaps 20 years or more, my wife and I have given ourselves a monthly spending allowance, separate from our household money and just for us to spend on things we want. My book purchases for myself, and new (as opposed to used) book purchases as gifts, come out of that, so that's where I get the money for the challenge. I'm frugal with it, and only buy new books in paperback; but since it's "luxury" money and not taking food out of anybody's mouth, I don't feel guilty about not buying in the cheapest venue I can.

Most Christians set aside a portion of their income for supporting the Lord's work. If you think of Christian bookstores as ministries doing the Lord's work, the extra cost of buying books from them might be considered a contribution to that cause. (Of course, we want to be good stewards of the Lord's money, and put it where it will do the most good. But it could arguably do more good for the Kingdom at the local Christian bookstore than in Amazon's coffers.)

Don't know if any of that helps, but hope some of it does. Blessings!

Robert wrote: "What do you recommend for a low income person?

I don't have a lot of money and most of the books (and other things) that I buy can be obtained for about half the price by shopping around online.

..."

Robert,

I have found a few used book sellers that are great. Depends on where you live but at times that is a good way to go. Like Werner also stated they may not be little but Barnes and Noble sells great books at low prices as well as Book a Million. They often have titles and classics at 5.00 or Less in the store. A little hunting can find something. The on-line market is always tempting. I do tend to try and get to sellers like Powell's in Portland. Fantastic independent store and they sell on-line. I forgot to mention them above. I also am fortunate to have a few semi local Christian stores as well.

Werner wrote: "Robert, good question! I can relate, since I'm not wealthy myself --I make more money than the average person in the county where I live (it's a pretty depressed area), but I'm in the lower middle ..."

Thanks Werner. I appreciate the thoughts.

Most of my book purchases are used from eBay or something like that. If I were to add the cost of gas, vehicle wear and tear, time, etc... the price difference is huge.

What is really sad is that some Christian bookstores don't stock the books I want. I was given a gift card not long ago and went to the Christian bookstore and was very hard pressed to find something to spend it on.

Eventually I got a couple of movies...

That was a discouraging outing...

Guy wrote: "I have found a few used book sellers that are great. Depends on where you live but at times that is a good way to go. Like Werner also stated they may not be..."

Thanks Guy...

Robert, where the local Christian bookstore in this area is concerned, I have to sadly echo the same impression, which is why I don't shop there myself. (My wife did once, to buy a Good News translation of the Bible for a friend, but she had to special order it --with difficulty-- because they only stock the King James Version.) My experience with other CBA (Christian Booksellers Assn.) stores, over several decades, has been similar.

You might be interested in the discussion on this thread as well: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... .

Werner wrote: "Robert, where the local Christian bookstore in this area is concerned, I have to sadly echo the same impression, which is why I don't shop there myself. (My wife did once, to buy a Good News transl..."

Thanks Werner... I will have a look at that thread.

This past Monday, I was saddened to learn that the local bookstore, Hearthside Books, will be closing its doors for good on Feb. 18. :-( I've shopped there since at least 2004 (they were the only bookstore I could find, besides Bluefield College's, that was willing to carry my book!). According to the newspaper article, they just didn't have enough business to sustain the store, so it's a graphic reminder of how important it is to support bookstores while we have them. (Now, I'll have to go further afield to find one to support.)

The closing of our local home-owned bookstore earlier this year made it harder for me to fulfill my goal of supporting a brick-and-mortar store this time around. But there's a chain bookstore in the Mercer Mall (located out in the country, between Bluefield WV and Princeton, the county seat), and this weekend, I finally got out there for some shopping. I fulfilled my two-book purchase commitment (for myself, this time!), and was pleased to see that the store was pretty busy with shoppers.

My bookstore-supporting challenge really had to wait until nearly the last minute this year; but I fulfilled it this morning, again at the bookstore in the mall. I was glad to see that once again, they were doing a brisk business!

Once again, I've recently met the challenge to support brick-and-mortar bookstores by buying at least two brand-new books a year in one! This year, I didn't leave it until the last days of December. :-)

It would be much easier to support regular bookstores if there were any still around one could visit without driving two hours to reach it!
I for one desperately miss having a Waldenbooks nearby; I'm sure to have been one of their best customers.

True, not everyone has ready access to a physical bookstore. :-( We who do have that access should be thankful for it!

I'm glad to say that I've once again fulfilled the challenge to buy at least two books a year from a physical bookstore! Though this year, as we've come down to the last week of December, it was, as some British Goodreaders might say, a bit of a close-run thing. :-)

Congrats, Werner, on meeting your good goal of purchasing at least two books a year from an actual brick and mortar bookstore!

I know of the challenges to keep a store opened. I would add that any time I am graciously allowed to set up for a book signing in someone else's store, I try to find something to buy from their store as a way to say 'Thank you'. :-)

Thanks, Lisa!

Lisa wrote: "...any time I am graciously allowed to set up for a book signing in someone else's store, I try to find something to buy from their store as a way to say 'Thank you'. :-) "

Good for you! I think that's an excellent thing to do.

Werner wrote: "I'm glad to say that I've once again fulfilled the challenge to buy at least two books a year from a physical bookstore! Though this year, as we've come down to the last week of December, it was, a..."

Werner, I'm glad you met your challenge of supporting brick and mortar stores. As a Christian and author, I've made the commitment to support them as well. The Christian bookstores provide so much more than just books.

Thanks, Angie!

Since I've accumulated so many piles of unread physical books by now, which are greatly backlogged, and I'm running short on space to put books, I decided not to buy books for myself to fulfill the challenge this year. So instead, I bought two books to donate to the Bluefield University library! (Barb and I also bought several books as Christmas gifts for family members; so the clerks at our local bookstore were probably pretty glad to see us coming. :-) )

In most years, I wind up waiting until very late in the year (and sometimes after Christmas!) to complete this challenge. This year, though, I've been much more on the ball; I picked up two books for myself at the bookstore in our local mall over the weekend. So, I've fulfilled the challenge for another year; and I hope others in the group will be able to join me before the year is out!

Werner wrote: "In most years, I wind up waiting until very late in the year (and sometimes after Christmas!) to complete this challenge. This year, though, I've been much more on the ball; I picked up two books f..."

Werner, I too have been supporting brick and mortar bookstores for years and will continue to do so. The Christian stores really need our support. I see these stores as ministries, since they provide books, music, and a host of other merchandise to uplift Christians and spread the good news about Jesus.

Angie wrote: "The Christian stores really need our support. I see these stores as ministries, since they provide books, music, and a host of other merchandise to uplift Christians and spread the good news about Jesus."

That's a very good point, Angie!

Yesterday, while I was at our local mall, I visited the Books-a-Million (BAM) outlet, and bought myself two books. One is New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (to the Bible), which replaces an older edition I've owned for 40 years, that was literally fallen apart. The other is a story collection, American Midnight: Tales of the Dark. So I've fulfilled my challenge to support physical bookstores for another year!

It usually takes me until late December to complete my "support bookstores" challenge in any given year. But having won a $25.00 Barnes and Noble gift card earlier this month through the wellness program where I work, and being in Harrisonburg, Virginia (which is home to a large brick-and-mortar Barnes and Noble bookstore) last week, I took the opportunity to redeem it. With that deduction, it didn't cost me much to buy copies of the anthology Golden Age Detective Stories, and of Mycroft and Sherlock by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Anna Waterhouse.