Classics and the Western Canon discussion

I’m calling this schedule tentative, because if the discussion merits more time we can easily stretch it out. But let’s start with this schedule.

Revised 8/27/11 to add catch-up week. And we can add in more time if people want. The book has been waiting for us for 2,500 years; it won't mind waiting an extra few weeks for us to really get it right! I also left the ending of the discussion of the full book open in case we want some extra time in there, too.

Revised again 9/25 to add another catch-up week.

July 27 - Aug 2	 Book 1
Aug 3 - 9		Book 2
Aug 10 - 16		Book 3
Aug 17 - 23		Book 4
Aug 24 - 30		Book 5
Aug 31 - Sept 6	 Catch-up week
Sept 7 - 13		Book 6
Sept 14 - 20		Book 7
Sept 21 - 27		Book 8
Sept 28 - Oct 4		Catch-up week
Oct 5 - 11 Book 9
Oct 12 - 18		Book 10
Oct 19- ? The Republic as a whole

Somehow unsurprisingly, my copy is divided differently: it's in 11 Parts rather than 10 Books :/

[EDIT: oh, it seems it shows the 10-Book division in the margins and table of contents]

Sounds good to me. I anticipate the Book 1 discussion will spill over into the second week because there is a lot to talk about and review, but we've done that before with no problems.

Vrixton -- The book division is thought to be a somewhat arbitrary decision made by editors long ago, so it's not really integral to the text. I think the divisions are standard now, but if yours differs it shouldn't be a big deal.

Vrixton wrote: "Somehow unsurprisingly, my copy is divided differently: it's in 11 Parts rather than 10 Books :/

[EDIT: oh, it seems it shows the 10-Book division in the margins and table of contents]"

That's weird. Every copy I've ever seen has it in 10 books.

I hope everybody's edition has the Stephanus page numbers. These usually show up in the margins: for the Republic, they start in Book 1 with 327a. This is based on what I believe was the first translation of all of Plato into Latin, published by Henri Estienne, aka Stephanus. It was published in three volumes, in two columns, Greek and Latin. Each volume was numbered individually, and each page was divided into five sections by the five letters a-e. Thus, there would be three page 200s, one for each volume, so if you're referring generally to a dialogue you need to name which dialogue as well as the Stephanus number. But since we're just reading the Republic, that's assumed unless you refer in a post to another dialogue.

Almost every commentary you see on Plato will refer to these numbers, so it's easy to locate passages no matter what copy you're using (unless you're using one of the few editions, such as the Classics Club edition I got long, long ago that doesn't use the numbers, boo hiss).

It would greatly help here if when you quote from the dialogue you provide the nearest Stephanus number unless your copy sadly doesn't have them.

Indeed, it does have those number :> It's the [latest edition, I suppose] Penguin Classics version.

Vrixton wrote: "Indeed, it does have those number :> It's the [latest edition, I suppose] Penguin Classics version."

It looks like your edition is divided into 11 thematic "Parts," but the actual Book divisions are normal and clearly noted. The thematic divisions make sense, and might actually be an improvement on the traditional book divisions, but they aren't standard.
In any case, if we refer to Stephanus numbers we'll all be on the same page.

I assume the start day is not meant to shift to a Thursday through September.

The schedule for books 7-10 should be:
Sept 7 - 13 Book 7
Sept 14 - 20 Book 8
Sept 21 - 27 Book 9
Sept 28 - Oct 4 Book 10

David wrote: "I assume the start day is not meant to shift to a Thursday through September.

The schedule for books 7-10 should be:"


Thanks for catching that. I've corrected it.

When we start the discussion, would someone who is familiar with citing Plato be willing to give an example of how to reference a passage?

(this might be more appropriate in either the resources or introductory discussion topics - but the question was asked here, so I'll answer it here)

Everyman has explained the origins of the Stephanus system above, I'll attempt to explain how this somewhat cryptic scheme will enable you to locate an exact reference. (The Republic occupies pages 327-621 of Vol.2 of Stephanus' edition of Plato.)

Opening my copy of the Republic (I'm using C.D.C. Reeve's 2004 translation, but the advantage of the Stephanus system is that the reference can be found in any other translation that uses it) at random, I came across this passage:
"I mean that both of them have to be sharp-eyed, quick to catch what they see, and strong, too, in case they have to fight what they capture." Rep. II 375a.5-7

The parts of this reference are as follows:

Rep. This is the dialogue, namely the Republic. Since we'll be mainly referring to the Republic, this can be left out, provided it is clear; but for other works should be included as otherwise the reference could be to any of Stephanus' volumes

II This is the Book of the Republic. Not strictly needed, since the page number will provide enough information, but useful for locating the passage in the wider context, so should generally be included.

375a This is the page and column reference to the Stephanus text, and is the most important part of the reference.

5-7 This is the line number, but often confusingly, not to Stephanus but to another Greek text (usually that of Burnet [1903]), or to the translation in question. Since the column divisions are quite small anyway (about 10-15 lines) it is acceptable to leave this out, and in the context of this discussion probably best to do so.

ah ok. thank you so much for the clear explanation. much appreciated!

David wrote: "Everyman has explained the origins of the Stephanus system above, I'll attempt to explain how this somewhat cryptic scheme will enable you to locate an exact reference. "

Good explanation. Scholars will use the full attribution, but for our purposes, I think it'll be perfectly adequate to use just the most basic reference, as 364a. From that, it's almost always easy enough to figure out what is being talked about.

While all of Book 1 will be open for discussion as soon as the topic is posted, folks may want to consider taking the first few days to work through the argument somewhat sequentially rather than jumping right into the later sections of the dialogue. Or not; this is a suggestion, not an edict!

Can the book be read out of order? I know it's a weird question, but I've been away from the group, and want it to see if I could be part of this discussion, I got the book from the library, but you are already 150 pages in, and I don't think I can catch up. :(

If not I'll wait for Proust, where support is need, it I tried once, but I couldn't do it.

Penny wrote: "Can the book be read out of order? I know it's a weird question, but I've been away from the group, and want it to see if I could be part of this discussion, I got the book from the library, but yo..."

Try it, Penny. Or go to the SparkNotes online and look at the synopses for the parts we have covered.

My primary source has been an audio abridged version. I think I may be missing some things, but am enjoying the conversation and go do a bit of digging if I need to figure out what I may have missed and need. But I miss things even if I read the unabridged text. To recognize such is part of the pleasure of conversations as we go.

Penny wrote: "Can the book be read out of order? I know it's a weird question, but I've been away from the group, and want it to see if I could be part of this discussion, I got the book from the library, but yo..."

You can try starting in reading Book 4, which is what we will start discussing tomorrow, and see how much sense it makes. Any Plato is better than no Plato!

Thank you I'll try.

I'm sooo behind in this read! I'm still in Book 2. aghhh! I am really enjoying it, I just haven't been able to keep pace. I've overcommitted myself to group reads. I'm doing 4! I'm going to try to catch up over the weekend so I can contribute to the discussion.

Are there enough of us who are behind that we should add in a one-week catch-up period and move Book 6 on back one week? This would also give an extra week for the very important Books 4 and 5.

I've read this book four or five times before, and I read it again about two months ago, and now I'm reading each book again in a different translation, and I find that I still have to go back and puzzle over details and read things yet again. This stuff is much more difficult and complex than it looks at first glance, so if anyone wants more time, I'm all for it.

I would look kindly on a chance to catch up as well. I just this evening " made it through" book 5...and that's not doing justice to The Republic.

;) smile.

Everyman wrote: "Are there enough of us who are behind that we should add in a one-week catch-up period ...? "

I am just starting Book 3, and I will like a one-week catch-up period.

Yes, please! A week to catch up would be fantastic.

Okay. I'll insert a one-week catch-up into the schedule!

Everyman wrote: "Okay. I'll insert a one-week catch-up into the schedule!"

Excellent! I feel as though I have a fresh wind behind me now. Thank you.

As of 9/26 I have added another catch-up week. Have corrected the schedule in post 1 of this thread to reflect the change.

Everyman wrote: "As of 9/26 I have added another catch-up week. Have corrected the schedule in post 1 of this thread to reflect the change."

Bless you, Everyman. There was an abundance of life in my life this past month, and Plato took it on the chin.

I hope you can get back on track with Plato soon -- we need your insights!

It looks like I'm going to be sidelined with work and family stuff for the next couple of weeks. My free time will be very limited, so I will be checking in but not posting much.

Thomas wrote: "It looks like I'm going to be sidelined with work and family stuff for the next couple of weeks. My free time will be very limited, so I will be checking in but not posting much."

Oh, dear. We'll really miss you.

I'm still plodding along, but way behind. I finally made it to Book 7. My reading time has mostly been confined to my lunch hour, since I've been pulling alot of overtime at work. I know I'm missing out on the discussion :(
With you guys in spirit though!

I thought there was always time for Jello?? :)