Middle East/North African Lit discussion

I tought of openning a thread about it for long time and today I found that there is a wiki page about it .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring

Feel free to leave your thoughts any time , we are living this history !

Not sure where Egypt is heading...divisions in Tahrir Square

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/...

Nile daughter wrote: "Not sure where Egypt is heading...divisions in Tahrir Square

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/..."

I notice this article is written bby Sandy Tolan who wrote The Lemon Tree: An Arab, a Jew, and the Heart of the Middle East. There is a link to his blog which looks interesting.

Sue ,
Yes it is written by him , it seems he is interested in Egypt now ...

Now Robert Fisk writes this :( :(

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/...

That sounds discouraging.

Yes , it is very gloomy and I do not want to think of it in this way , I think the main problem is not about the army as much as that liberals are not organized and do not have leaders like Islamists , they had to prepare their selves much earlier for the next step and not lose the support of the Egyptian street that is so tired because of the economical circumstances and the security we lost. I am confused myself .
Ahdaf Souief is more optimistic in here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfr...

all what Egypt talks about now is "Hosni Mubarak in court " , we all watched it alive !!!

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mid...

I saw excerpts on BBC yesterday..we have a BBC channel for news 24/7 which I watch for international news.

Sue wrote: "I saw excerpts on BBC yesterday..we have a BBC channel for news 24/7 which I watch for international news."

We have BBC in English and Arabic , active one !... anything special issue to mention ?

Only that I see such widely different views about what's happening now in Egypt as far as the process toward new government, the role of the military and the Muslim Brotherhood. What is your view?

Thanks for sharing Ahdaf Souief's article, Nile daughter. She makes a good point in the first few sentence - the revolution is not an event, it's a process.

I agree with you that the lack of a leader for the "liberals" is the biggest challenge. Let's hope they can move forward with their plans of coalitions and unity!

Sue , For the trial , I want justice …a fair trial , I do not want Mubarak to be executed just because it was said he deserve that , he was a dictator and fed corruption and have huge mistakes towards us , but does he deserve death ? I do not know . but at least I don't think of him as Al kazafi or Al Asad .

For the situation now , I am afraid I may not agree with Souief completely regarding her scoop . the army strategy is not the only problem ,there is anther big one …. youth did not make this revolution alone , they took the first step but all Egyptians followed , but now they lost that link some how .people are poor ..Afraid from chaos and exhausted and the same time , they trust the army in their majority as thier sheild.

Personally I wished for a phase where to rebuild was more important than revenge . making strong parties and increase people awareness … but I may be wrong .

Bernadette,
You are welcome , I really hope they can make fast and solid steps , no one knows what is coming next , now tell me , how do people see things in Sinai , what do you think of the recent violence problems ?

Nile daughter wrote: "Bernadette,
You are welcome , I really hope they can make fast and solid steps , no one knows what is coming next , now tell me , how do people see things in Sinai , what do you think of the recent violence problems ?"

You know, North Sinai is SO different than South Sinai. But the violence in north Sinai always worries me. There have always been problems up there, and yes they are getting worse, but they are also just reported more. I do think there is an effort being made to include the Bedouin more in the decisions, which is a good thing. They have finally even allowed Bedouins to help guard the pipeline.

Our Bedouin friends apologized profusely about the violence (not the recent El Arish problem, but the earlier ones of car jackings, etc). They really felt that Bedouins were getting a bad name and it wasn't all of them, just a handful, that were causing problems. They also do not seem to think it's as big of a deal as I do. Or they "play it down" a lot. But tribal feuds are not new to them.

In general, they are happy Mubarak has been removed. Not much talk about the trial though. Too focused on Ramadan, I think. :-) The Bedouins were treated very (VERY) unfairly under the previous regime. But they are suffering now from lack of tourism (in the south). So I think they are ready to get a new leader and get the country back on track.

But that's just my perception.

Thanks everyone for all of this information. It's much more than I would know other wise.

Call me crazy, but I just don't believe in the death penalty for anyone, ever, anywhere. I wish america could progress beyond capital punishment.

I have not gotten to see much of Mubarak's trial or any coverage of it (too much going on with our budget/deficit that could affect my job and my family...I'm a little obsessed right now) but on the first day it was reported that Mubarak's lawyers claimed that the man in the cage was not Mubarak and that Mubarak had actually died in 2004...how do typical Egyptians feel about that?

Marieke wrote: "it was reported that Mubarak's lawyers claimed that the man in the cage was not Mubarak and that Mubarak had actually died in 2004...how do typical Egyptians feel about that? "

I'm not sure how Egyptians feel...but that made me giggle! Apparently this lawyer has filed that case against Mubarak over 200 times since 2004. Will be interesting to see what the judge decides on that, whether or not they will DNA test Mubarak.

Nile daughter wrote: "I tought of openning a thread about it for long time and today I found that there is a wiki page about it .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring

Feel free to leave your thoughts any time ..."

This is alarming-but not surprising. I think the lack of education in most areas-especially rural areas have also kept the populations in check. With education and global (internet) communications now-everyone wants a dif world. Its scarey, in that when a country is in the middle of a civil war, its weaken to outside attacks. Divide and conquer! But the whole world is experiencing this, including the US (and the past few days London). I think everyone globly wants more say in their life and more human rights. Its freighting to think that it may blow up before we can reach the perfect life (for each culture, country, religion, etc.) :(

Nile daughter wrote: "Not sure where Egypt is heading...divisions in Tahrir Square

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/..."

All this happening so close and during Ramadan?!?

It's that need for education, education, education. Even our home grown Tea Party members might think twice if they really knew what their leaders stood for and how their leaders are misrepresenting U.S. history. I imagine this is happening in other countries in the same way.

The internet can be powerful but it also can be splintering. What can happen is that individuals begin to look only at those things on the internet that agree with their beliefs--I believe that is happening here. And since broadcast news is so pitiful and information-free here in the U.S., I don't know what the answer is. I hope that other nations have better outlooks for information.

Sue wrote: "It's that need for education, education, education. Even our home grown Tea Party members might think twice if they really knew what their leaders stood for and how their leaders are misrepresentin..."


So agree-this next election is more than scarey-I have friends, family and co-workers who voted for Bush, convinced that he was such a good Christian and would be the best man for the job! :(

The internet is splintering-especially when anyone can promote their ideas including all the warmongers, etc. Not to mention all the sites that promote making home-made bombs, etc!

Thanks Bernadette, I knew about Bedouins problems with last regime , I hope things will be better , I guess everyone want to get the country back on track and that is the main issue …

Marieke , I am sorry for the last American economical problems and I hope things will be better .

For the capital punishment ; in my society , I think capital punishment cannot be deleted , there are unforgettable crimes , also without that punishment , you can never end vendetta .
For the claiming that the man in cage is not Mubarak , first it was not his lawyers but one of the opposite direction !! Like Bernadette , we were laughing ! This is nonsense.

Kit wrote: "All this happening so close and during Ramadan?!?..."

No before Ramadan ,we are still observing what will be next . next parliament elections may seem scary here too , and more like a puzzle .

Sue wrote: "I hope that other nations have better outlooks for information. ..."

I think the internet can be used in all directions , right ?

Nile Daughter, I certainly hope that the internet will help and be used in positive ways. I think it can be as a source for information if people don't limit themselves.

Sue wrote: "Nile Daughter, I certainly hope that the internet will help and be used in positive ways. I think it can be as a source for information if people don't limit themselves."

I wish for the same , you know ...I think that being able to have this group where all of us can talk is a good sign .:)

So true :)

This is old news , but I thought of posting about it any way ...

Tawakkol Karman: Nobel Peace Prize laureate

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/201...
Sorry for posting this in Arabic it is not translated yet but it says NO CHURCH WAS EVER DESTROYED.
It has been rumored that Israelis were caught among protesters???????? Not the first or last time.

Ghada wrote: "http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/201...
Sorry for posting this in Arabic it is not translated yet but it says NO CHURCH WAS EVER DESTROYED.
It has been rumored that Israelis were c..."

I saw it before ,I am not sure about it (the timing ?) , I am very confused and sad Ghada ...

read (sorry again , in Arabic)
http://www.youm7.com/News.asp?NewsID=...

Ok now i just wanna go myself to see the truth. What the hill is going on? It seems the is no one truth? U know what ND i really stoped caring about it. I just care about ending this nightmare. I am totally convensed there r stpud agly people from both sides whom share one goal destroying egypt. I do understand how u feel i am sad too i lived in egypt for 11 years i became a grown up there and it is killing me to see this.
Uknow what is makes my heart bleed to realize that the ottoman empire was distroyed in the name of arab nationalism, and now arab nationalism is being distroyed in the name of religion. We will end up with sunni, shie, christian, and do not know what latter.

What I have seen on the news has made me sad here too. I hope that somehow things work out for the good.

It breaks my heart, too, and it is very frustrating that no one knows what is really happening.

I thought this article was interesting:
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsConte...

The author feels that it is inevitable that the truth will come out...it just may take 40 years like it did in the U.K...let's just hope not!

I also saw a scary note online tonight from the Washington Post, that missing weapons from Libya are now turning up in Egypt, in the Sinai. This article was concerned about the weapons getting to the Gaza area. I'd be concerned about them being anywhere since there seem to be many people who just aren't ready for peace.

Ghada wrote: "Ok now i just wanna go myself to see the truth. What the hill is going on? It seems the is no one truth? U know what ND i really stoped caring about it. I just care about ending this nightmare. I a..."

Thanks sister for your feelings ...:)

yes there are fanatics on both sides ,and we need justice to control both . aside from Aswan events , what happened later is more than that ,remeber that sunday massacre was not among Muslims and christians ; no matter how many pieces are missing from the puzzile , this will remain as an indelible fact :" these were civilians vs soldiers - with thugs involved (?!!)". the whole thing is like an investing process to problems to serve purposes that will be revealed sooner or later , hope not that late like Bernadette's article said ( thanks for posting) . .

True I am confused and I know that the article Bernadette posted said the army authority had no benefits so far , still ...I need to wait , see and keep on observing , I have no trust in them in the mean time - which was very difficult for me , I used to defend them before .

Here is an Article The attack on Egyptian Christians was not sectarian. We will uncover the truththat was published yester day by Ahdaf Soueif , the kind of thoughts she says here is the mainstream on facebook .

BTW , Soueif is now one of the 100 people exercising the greatest influence over the UK's reading habits - right now , Here

Sue wrote: "I also saw a scary note online tonight from the Washington Post, that missing weapons from Libya are now turning up in Egypt, in the Sinai. This article was concerned about the weapons getting to t..."

Yes , this is a disaster indeed , thugs and fanatics now are out of control..:(

The reports I saw here stressed the military vs Christians, not sectarian violence. It sounded to me like the military out of control, but that was my perception from thousands of miles away.

I think there was a huge difference in the way these events were initially portrayed by "Western" media versus "Arab" media. Everything I read on one end focused on the sectarian violence while the other focused on protesters vs. the army.

You are right, Nile Daughter...we must wait and see, but I don't like loosing our trust in the armed forces. Scary.

Thanks for posting the Soueif article! She says, "We now know a previous massacre, the bombing of the Church of the Two Martyrs in Alexandria in December, in which 21 were killed, was the work of Mubarak's ministry of the interior." Has that been proven?! I wasn't aware.

Sue wrote: "The reports I saw here stressed the military vs Christians, not sectarian violence. It sounded to me like the military out of control, but that was my perception from thousands of miles away."

To describe it as only "the military out of control" will not be very accurate either , there were a third party too "armed one= thugs" (but who are they working for ? that is a question ).why did the offecial media acted this way ?! why did Authority overlooked the critical sitiuation until solders were put with Coptic protestors in that framed agly sitiuation ; is anther and more critical question !

Bernadette wrote: " I don't like loosing our trust in the armed forces. Scary..."

I agree , I used to defend the army even if their attitude was not perfect and even suspicious sometimes , because they are the only remaining power with legitimacy, we have no president , no parliament , no constitution , and without them it will be absolute chaos ..Looking at the internal conditions and borders …that is a horrifying situation .

Bernadette wrote: "Thanks for posting the Soueif article! She says, "We now know a previous massacre, the bombing of the Church of the Two Martyrs in Alexandria in December, in which 21 were killed, was the work of Mubarak's ministry of the interior." Has that been proven?! I wasn't aware."

You are welcome , that is one of the voices ...there are so many , that is confusing!!!

About "Alexandria" ...Not sure , I read several times about that before , but not from offecial resources , I believe Habib el-Adly is a Satanic creature but to that far ?!

I even found the news only on Ekhwan website Former Interior Minister Habib El Adly Accused of Being Involved in Alex Qiddisin's Church Bombings . so it can be true or not true , but if true , then definitely "Maspero bloody day" will join it in the explianation .

I wanted to post this yesterday but did not have time :

Church and SCAF meeting



NB
I read more about what happened on bloody sunday ....well , no more comments can express my grievance .

Thanks for sharing, Nile Daughter!

Thanks. I read that article and a linked article that reflects the unease and concern in Egypt right now.

Bernadette wrote: "Thanks for sharing, Nile Daughter!"

You are welcome , hope things will move in more positive direction .

Sue wrote: "Thanks. I read that article and a linked article that reflects the unease and concern in Egypt right now."

You are welcome , which article ?

I read the 10/17 summary of what happened with some very brief interviews with people who were in the streets and opposing viewpoints about the military's intent and actions. It didn't sound good. It also sounded as if some were trying to make this a sectarian issue when it didn't start out that way.

I just checked...the article was "stunned by bloodshed, Egyptian people torn over army..."

Sue wrote: "I read the 10/17 summary of what happened with some very brief interviews with people who were in the streets and opposing viewpoints about the military's intent and actions. It didn't sound good. ..."

I read it, it is a general survey, yes there are contradiction and confusion , I was going mad myself but did not see the main protestors to be blamed . The sectarian issue is forced now on us; I never felt it this way before , that makes me nervous. I know the next Parliament will not be perfect, but we have to move on and get the army out of the picture, that is the only step I can see for now.

I don't think that the recent clashes were triggered by any sectarian tensions. Although I tend sometimes to refrain from referring to "Conspiracy Theory" as a cause of any crisis in Egypt, I do believe that the recent events were mainly triggered by violent actions committed by hired thugs who aim - as usual- to spread chaos and anger among both sides, thus leading to such horrible confrontations.
We can notice that the issue of sectarian tensions is always deliberately brought to the fore whenever a law or a positive step towards abolishing the old regime figures or bringing them to trial is taken.

I think that happens in a lot of places Amira. Here in the U.S., some are always trying to label groups so that they will be hated by others. Young demonstrators are called students to imply they don't have to work and must have money. Ethnic people are loosely identified so no one knows if they are legal. Religious groups are mentioned so cautiously it's become ridiculous because everyone is afraid of making even bigots upset. So horrid little bigoted right wing churches that burn the Koran get national coverage that makes them seem as if they actually have stature when they actually have none in this country.

I'm not even sure if what I wrote makes sense but my intention is this: the powers that be seem to control the news and how it gets out and is shaped and is timed to help to further their agenda. Sadly those powers seem not to be on the side of the angels.

Sue u make perfect sense and I totally agree with u. It seems that governments feel threatened all the time by any kind of protest against their policies, that is y they label people, their best policy is divide and concur. It seems to me that these days what we r witnessing is a kind of clear cut division of what the people want and what the governments want all over the world.
Those days I feel that we r witnessing a whole new transformation of the international system. I hope the outcome will be better this time, though I am not really very optimistic.

Amira wrote: "We can notice that the issue of sectarian tensions is always deliberately brought to the fore whenever a law or a positive step towards abolishing the old regime figures or bringing them to trial is taken...."

True ...

Sue wrote: "the powers that be seem to control the news and how it gets out and is shaped and is timed to help to further their agenda. Sadly those powers seem not to be on the side of the angels...."

The media here is driving me crazy , there are independent (Islamic and christian)(?) channels that work in suspicious ways , I do not like that at all.

Ghada wrote: " I feel that we r witnessing a whole new transformation of the international system..."

This is the second time I hear this in one day , makes me wonder ...

I'm thinking that maybe things really are different right now. This may be the first time there has been true global unrest, where people can be in communication with each other in real time. I'm thinking of the Occupy Wall St marches that sprung up internationally last weekend and got international coverage.

When Arab Spring was happening, people in the U.S. were speculating what it would take to make Americans take to the street. Now we're beginning to see. There is a sort of international movement underway, small and not united except in a loose way.

If we are looking for a spark of hope for the world as a whole, maybe this is one. I'm always looking for hope and haven't seen much. I'm glad this group led me to find this glimmer.

It has just been confirmed that Gaddafi was killed by the rebels... I would like to know what do you think of this.
As for me, I have mixed feelings. Although I have always condemned all his horrible actions , whether in the past or after the Libyan revolution, I don't think that seeking retribution through killing a dictator and not putting him to trial is always the solution.However, I am very happy for the Libyan people and hope that they can have a better chance to rebuild their country.

Well Amira I share the same feelings with u. I hated the guy and his family I always thought he was beyond crazy because destroyed his own country and people. but still killing is not the answer. If such people r killed without trial we actually justify their doing in an indirect way. According to his crazy logic he killed to save his country from destruction and now he was killed out of revenge. If he was killed during the military operation I would not have mind it but to be captured alive and then killed???? it is too much for me to accept.