Discovering Russian Literature discussion

Has anyone read 'The Kreutzer Sonata'? This book pretty much changed my life in terms of the way I think about sex and relationships. My mum says it's totally misogynistic, etc. but I completely disagree. I think the way he juxtaposed their 'animal fits of passion' with their 'animal fits of bitterness' was fantastic, and really made me see how debasing sex has the potential to be. Obviously you have to be of a pretty ascetic slant anyway to completely agree with this, but nonetheless it's an incredibly interesting and radical way of looking at male/female relationships, one that, if taken as valid, applies even more today. Tolstoy would be absolutely disgusted with the state of things today, I think.
What I find most incredible is that this book was actually heavily censored at its publication, and I don't forget who, but a super prominent figure referred to it as absolute smut or something even worse. That is absolutely just the biggest strangehood in the world, for this book which actively discourages people from sex and encourages an ascetic lifestyle.

Yes, I'm sorry to report that I agree with your mum, though. For me it makes it starkly clear what a preaching mysoginistic hypocrite Tolstoy was. Yes, sex has the potential to be debasing (has anyone ever seriously doubted that?), but what Tolstoy seems to be saying is that all sex is debasing and dirty and destructive, even more than that, that it is the nature of what it is to be a "woman" that makes it so.

One could argue that what Tolstoy is doing is producing an indictment of the social mores of the time which made the women into these debasing creatures which would in fact turn this into a feminist manifesto but I honestly don't think so.

Greer wrote: "Has anyone read 'The Kreutzer Sonata'? This book pretty much changed my life in terms of the way I think about sex and relationships. My mum says it's totally misogynistic, etc. but I completely di..."

I've not read it yet but I do know that the later period of Tolstoy's literary career, which followed his moral and spiritual crisis led to this controversial view on sexuality but he is not a misogynistic, it's a pretty narrow term, don't you think? I know "The Kreutzer Sonata" has been criticized severely it's also one of the best examples of Tolstoy's art of storytelling. Chekhov himself praised it.

I'm not sure what'll happen to Tolstoy if he saw the modern world. ;) I'm guessing you're a new member... Welcome!

Amalie wrote: Gloria please mind your language when posting your thoughts. Posts with inappropriate language will be deleted...

I deleted the word that I believe that you were objecting to and apologies if this was offensive to anyone. I do not feel it is a particularly inappropriate word but I am pretty inured to the use of bad language.

I'm afraid my opinion of Tolstoy as a person is pretty low and while appreciate some of his other works, I feel this particular story cheapens them.

Gloria wrote: "Amelia wrote: Gloria please mind your language when posting your thoughts. Posts with inappropriate language will be deleted...

I deleted the word that I believe that you were objecting to and a..."

It's ok, to have a low opinion on Tolstoy as a person and remember you are free to express your views, just be careful with your choice of language. I'm glad you revised it.

I don't think Tolstoy was saying that all sex was debasing, I think he was more saying that the frequency of it is debasing. I take his point to be that unless it's to reproduce then it's unnecessary and harmful. You might not agree that it's harmful, but it wasn't a narrowly misogynistic thing, or so I think, 'cos it fits in with his larger scheme: no meat, no alcohol, no music even, and in the later (and zanier) part of his life, even an antagonism to food, and the events that are built around it. It's about asceticism, not belittling women, I think. I think he sort of pities women for all the sex that's inflicted on them. I'm sure he thinks of women as lesser beings, but not because he hates them, as a misogynist would, but rather because he's a product of the 19th century, and of a pretty backward (compared to the continent) country.
I think he has this weird attitude to women as well because he was so religious in this period, and original sin I'm sure was on his mind alot, so via Eve, he would've seen women as embodying temptation and worldly base things.
I love the ideas in this story, but I'd have to be so bold as to disagree with Chekhov and say that it's not very well structured. But structure aside, it is a real storytelling story, in that it's the protagonist relaying his life to a stranger on the train, and of course he tells it quite well. It's pretty repetitive, but I guess this drives the point home, and because the ideas are quite controversial, I guess the repeating of the mantra kinda helps you to buy it. I don't know, I really liked it.
I actually broke up with my boyfriend because of this story, and decided to be celibate until baby-making time.

Very interesting conversation. I have not read The Kreutzer Sonata yet, although I have had it in a collection of Tolstoy's short stories for years. I enjoy everything Tolstoy wrote before his conversion, but I get very annoyed with his later works. I do think I will attempt this story soon, however, to see what I think. Thanks for sharing your opinions!

I never was able to tolerate Tolstoy until I read 'the Kreuzer Sonata'. Then I became a convert. His was one of the first uses of what I like to call 'ironic cynicism' especially when describing the incredibly cloying sapfest piece of music that is the book's title. I loved it, still love it, because it was an example of how to tell a story without a particularly rigid structure. How to be more of a psychological realist, rather than a descriptive one. (I still have trouble getting through the never-ending descriptions of serfs working in fields in Anna K) Obviously tastes differ, but this book was a turning point for me as a young man. I discovered that even dry old preachy writers like Tolstoy have gems of beauty which unlocked the rest of their prose.

The lives and personal views of many artists are often at odds with what they write or paint and Tolstoy is no exception. Tolstoy was a tormented soul with some very great and some very peculiar ideas. This essay on The Kreutzer Sonata gives some good psychological insights as to his state of mind:-

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/tols...

G K Chesterton said this about the Tolstoy and the KS: 'Tolstoy is not content with pitying humanity for its pains: such as poverty and prisons. He also pities humanity for its pleasures, such as music and patriotism...In The Kreutzer Sonata he weeps almost as much at the thought of love....What he dislikes is being a man.'

Tolstoy also wrote Father Sergius which is often considered a critique of celibacy and the ascetic, monastic life (Spoiler):-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_S...

When reading these outpourings of angst about sex in this period we have to remember that lusty men and women did not have access to adequate birth control and sex often led to unwanted pregnancies and the death of beloved girl friends, wives and children. (Infant mortality rates in Britain before 1900 were about 50% - that is half of live births resulted in a death within a year or so. Maternal mortality rates were 4.9 for every 1000 births. These figures may well have been higher in Russia, which was a less advanced society.)

Women commonly suppressed their sexuality and slept apart from their husbands, and men practised coitus interruptus to prevent pregnancy, as well as resorting to prostitutes. This led to a great deal of tension, sometimes accompanied by physical and mental illness. It was seriously held that 'sexual appetite was incompatible with mental distinction and that procreation impaired artistic genius. Men were vigorously counselled to conserve vital health by avoiding fornication, masturbation and nocturnal emissions (for which a variety of devices were invented) and by rationing sex within marriage'. Women too were counselled against masturbation and clitorectomies were sometimes advised (as was male circumcision), together with other barbaric instruments like these (beware graphic/scatological language):-

http://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-mos...

This was the background against which Tolstoy was writing about sex!

MadgeUK wrote: "The lives and personal views of many artists are often at odds with what they write or paint and Tolstoy is no exception. Tolstoy was a tormented soul with some very great and some very peculiar id..."

My goodness! I didn't know the background to this. Thanks for sharing Madge.

It's sometimes difficult to get his views on relationships and religion. May be his moral and spiritual crisis arose from his own behaviour as a young man; fighting, drinking, gambling, chasing the girls etc. I don't know if I agree with his philosophy or whether I love him as a person but he is a great author.

There's always a character in his novels representing himself. Like Levin Anna Karenina, who undergoes a religious conversion. In his novel A Confession similar to Levin, the narrator who suffers from depression and suicidal thoughts finds he is rescued by religion.

His fear of death, lies behind the mystical experiences in 'The Death of Ivan Ilych. Then Pozdnyshev in 'The Kreutzer Sonata' may be his most controversial character, they all have autobiographical echoes. I'm sure Father Sergius has something too.

And you are right, Tolstoy is no exception. Despite his personal views, I don't think he a misogynist. Although there are a lot of hang-ups about women, in Anna Karenina we are given a woman who has been left to speak for herself.

No, I don't think he was a misogynist either Amalie and I am a great fan of his writing. I think he was just a lusty man who loved women but who had to unnaturally restrain his desires. So he became bitter and twisted, helped by the propaganda about the evils of sex put out by the Russian Orthodox Church. He and Sophia had thirteen children, five of whom died and she also had three miscarriages. Tolstoy insisted that she breast fed them all, despite her frequently having mastitus. During her twelfth pregnancy she wrote that she was 'screaming with despair and rage' and attempted to induce a miscarriage by taking scalding baths and jumping from a dresser! When her attempts failed, she approached a midwife in Tula, asking for an abortion but she wouldn't abort a Countess. Imagine what all that does for your sex life! I think it is likely he gave up sex and took up religion as a form of birth control.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/boo...

http://sophiatolstoy.com/excerpts.html

MadgeUK wrote: "No, I don't think he was a misogynist either Amalie and I am a great fan of his writing. I think he was just a lusty man who loved women but who had to unnaturally restrain his desires. So he beca..."

Sounds terrible. Sometimes I wonder whether these men really loved their wives at all. I like his writing but not as a family man. Thanks for sharing these Madge.

I would think that if you had 8 living children and wanted to write, it would be impossible to be much of a family man!!!!!!!!

Anyone else have problems with the style of language in this story? It reads like a very dense lecture, a repetitive and dense lecture, with snatches of drama sprinkled in. To be fair, I should say that I put it aside about half way through, and am not eager to take it up again any time soon. I've read most of Tolstoy's short works, so I'm familiar with his themes, and I have enjoyed them very much, but just in terms of storytelling, I've never encountered one this dense and abstract. "Father Sergius," covers similar ground, to some extent, but it's also a vivid narrative you can see, feel, hear, smell. Even if Tolstoy is employing this voice for the old man intentionally -- and I assume he is -- to reveal his character, I think the drawbacks outweigh any potential benefits. I know I should finish the story before offering final judgment, but I can't read more than a few pages without getting fidgety and distracted, or just plain bored. What do others think of the voice in this story?

I haven't read it in a year or so but I recall thinking that it was more a knock against men and their behavior towards women.

Though the trail is a bit cold here, I couldn’t help wanting to contribute.

I read Kreutzer Sonata just last year. I already had an excellent opinion of Tolstoy as a writer based upon years of reading many of his more famous works, both large and small. I’m also a huge fan of Beethoven and consider his sonata for Piano & Violin, from hence Tolstoy borrowed his title, a masterpiece of chamber music repertoire.
I was fairly uninformed as to the substance of the story, the way I prefer to read, and was therefore stunned by the strength of this tale. I didn’t find it for or against anything. It was simple a portrait: the vicissitudes of married life and the violence inherent in jealousy.
One of the best reads I enjoyed last year.

I don’t know what translation you have read, all of your reviews are different, which makes me question: has the story in English conveyed the same message as in its original language or was it your personal interpretation of what he wrote?
Having read Kreutzer Sonata in Russian I got the following from Tolstoy that completely changed the view how I look on physical intercourse:
In the end of Kreutzer Sonata, Tolstoy wrote 5 more ‘extra points’ to explain what he meant by that short story, due to large number of people who have contacted him by post asking to explain what is the take home message?
1. Sexual intercourse became a standard necessity in our society, supported by education, science, government directly or indirectly, physical and spiritual mutilation of woman. It is no good for one group of people to benefit while suppressing others for their personal well-being. The last removes the responsibility from man by not having kids, using contraception or leaving all the burden on the shoulders of a woman. For a young man to avoid such immoral code, he has to abstain from sexual activity, avoid obesity and meat in his diet, maintain a physical load activity (on top of regular excercise), abstain from lustful thoughts and respect woman as one’s own mother or sister.
2. Our society looks on sex as a necessity for good health and happiness, as something poetic and high moral conduct especially in the higher layers of the population. Cheating on your suppose appeares to be normal. In order to avoid the last, man and woman have to be raised in families that teach physical intercourse not to be something poetic, elite, rather as something inferior, animal in nature, and by conveying an act of adultry to be punished publically as some one who made a financial fraud.
3. With support of our recent science achievements and the false belief of physical intercourse being good, led to having children as a burden, an obstacle, in order to sustain sexual pleasure. Woman of all ages with the help of contraception, regardless if they are breast feeding or taking care of small infants - continue to have sex despite being pregnant (again). Contraception has led to physical and emotional abuse of a woman, and prevents the responsibility of having children and taking care of them. Hence it is no good, and one has to understand that being able to abstain from intercourse is a necessity in marriage or single life.
4. I think this is the most important point. In our society children are perceived as a disturbance to our joy, or as a mistake, and being raised not for the purposes of becoming a good human having the skills to live and create good along your life time. Rather they are grown to satisfy their parents in the joy that they might bring to them. As a consequence children of humans are raised as children of animals, the main concern of the parents is not to raise a child that will have good qualities within, but make him or her healthy, strong, well fed, tall and handsome (if lower social classes don’t do it it’s only because they can’t but they still think the same). As a result of over sensitive children, as any over fed animal, sooner or later appears a desire in a young age that will cause a prolong suffering at years to come. Fashion, reading, music, dancing, sweets, sights, all of life environment starting from pictures on boxes ending with poems and stories - fuel that desire even more resulting in normal sexual misconduct of children in both sex, lingering within to become adults. I believe such goal of raising children is not good, children should be stopped being raised as animals and have other goals except of a beautiful physique.
5. In our society, state of love, has in its base a physical love, is raised to the highest poetic aim and goal of people, which is supported by our art and literature. Youth dedicates the best times of theirs lives: men preoccupied with acquiring romantic skills to lure woman, and ladies with learning how to attract a man into a relationship or marriage. Because of the last, energies of humanity are spent for useless and later on harmful craft. All of that resulting in mad luxury of our life - joy of men and shamelessness of woman following the last scream of fashion designers, showing to our senses naked body parts. And I believe is is no good.
Not good because we have to understand the purpose of marriage doesn’t has to contain lustful love in its core, regardless of how highly it is perceived and praised, it is not worthy of a man, as it is not worthy of a man to dedicate his whole life to obtain sweet food.
The conclusion is that we have to stop thinking about physical love as something superior, understand that a goal worthy of a man is to serve humanity / nation/ science/ art / or maybe even God. If we will think for a moment that achieving that goal of a mankind (each of us whatever he may choose) is worthy, this goal is not achieved by bonding with the love object in your marriage (as much as poetry and art try to show the opposite). Physical love never makes it easier for man to reach that goal but on the contrary it takes him further away, distracting from the purpose.
Later on Tolstoy implies of the misconduct of the church, that we are led astray by rules and principles that were not given to us by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has given to us an ideal: love God with your whole heart and soul, love the other as you love yourself, be perfect as your father in Heaven. One can say that an ideal cannot be achieved, and hence as closer I will get to it, the further it will move from me. It is an endless struggle. You can choose to stand under the street light and say “hey there is a light around me I don’t need to go any futprther”. Or you can see the light as a source in the end of a pole that you hold while you walking further, lighting and guiding your way. You will not be able to reach the source in the last method because it will be all the time ahead of you, but you can try to be better. Such as a swimmer that drifted away from the shore but he remains near the light house staying close. Some have drifted so far away that only can use a compass or a pole with light in order to point them to the right direction.

In Father Sergius God started to reappear in him only when he chose to leave everything and roam freely helping people with what he can, if it is by advise or sort of a task, asking or taking nothing in return.

In Kholostomer he writes “people conduct life not with deeds but with words. They like not as much to do something rather to talk about different subject agreed between them by words. Those words considered very important between them: my, mine and other forms of possessive. The say those words not only about horses, objects, but also about people and land. They agree between themselfs that only one can call it or that his. And according to those rules the person that can say mine about as many as possible, is the happiest among them.”

“There are people that call land - theirs, although they have never seen it or step a foot on it. Some people call other people their’s and also never seen them (slavery), and their only relation to those is that they make them evil. Some people call woman or wife’s their own, but those woman live with other men. And people strive in life, not to make good as they think they do, rather to call as many things their own property”

My take home message: woman was, is, and will be viewed always as a pleasure object, unless we change something in our self’s. Society and culture continue to progress with time while our ethics and psychology goes in the opposite direction. Each person should figure out for himself what Tolstoy tried to tell in those stories

My ‘takeaway’ was that it was a kickin good story masterfully told. Jealousy can be a most blinding vice and in the case of this story led to the most destructive behavior. I think it sometimes gets overlooked what a multi-dimensional character the author gives to the heroine. Her ability to play the piano part of Beethoven’s monster Sonata, even as an amateur, adds to her being a dimension far beyond what may be considered average or normal.
For those not overly familiar with the piece, there are many entertaining live performances available on U-tube. My favorite, my recommendation is the one featuring: - Patricia Kopatchinskaja & Fazıl Say.