The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is the Week Nine thread for the next Presidential Series selection (My Life).

For those of you still acquiring the book, be advised that some folks have run into the problem of the book being now divided into two volumes. We will be reading and discussing the entire work so you will need to get both volumes (Volume I and Volume II). For those of you like myself who have the original hardcopy, that will not be necessary because the hardcopy was just one big book.

The week's reading assignment is:

Week Nine - August 8th - August 14th -> Chapters TWENTY FOUR, TWENTY FIVE, and TWENTY SIX p. 331 - 398


We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 13th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be your moderator for this selection as he is our lead for all Presidential selections. We hope you enjoy Week Nine of this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Bill Clinton

In 1988, Clinton moved to the national stage as he thought about running for president against George H.W. Bush. However, he decided not to run, because he wanted to stay close to his family and finish the work he was doing in Arkansas. He favored his friend, Gov. Michael Dukakis, of Massachusetts. He became more active in the Democratic Leadership Council where he helped shape a new vision for welfare reform and education based on his success in Arkansas. He introduced Dukakis at the Democratic National Convention, but he didn't make a good impression, almost short-circuiting his budding national career. However, he went on the Johnny Carson show and he used humor to get back into some good graces. Dukakis lost the election to Bush, and Clinton continued to work on issues such as revitalizing the Mississippi River region of the state, literacy programs, and opened school health clinics. Clinton did travel to Washington to see President Reagan sign a welfare reform bill.

In chapter 25, Clinton ran again for another term as governor. There were rumors of affairs and candidates were arguing Arkansas needed a change, but Clinton won re-election. He continued to fight for literacy programs, college scholarships, apprenticeships for those not going to college, teacher raises, health insurance for kids and pregnant women, more highway construction, and vetoed a gun bill. Clinton gave a keynote address at the Democratic Leadership Council convention in Cleveland making him a front-runner for a 1992 run. Although he saw Bush hard to beat, especially right after the Gulf War, he started a exploratory committee and saw two issues he had to face right away: abortion and his personal life. There were rumors of infidelity and that he smoked marijuana. Also, he was pro-life, but did support a ban on late term abortions.

Clinton declared his candidacy in chapter 26. It is an interesting chapter (for those political fans) as we follow Clinton around the primaries and caucuses. He kept his campaign HQ in Little Rock with Bruce Lindsey as campaign director, Craig Smith, head of finance, George Stephanopoulos as communications director, Eli Segal building a national staff, and others such as Rahn Emanuel, Bob Rubin, James Carville, Sandy Berger, Tony Lake, Madeline Albright, Dick Holbrooke, and Ken Brody. He was running against some big names: Bob Kerrey, Tom Harkin, Paul Tsongas, Doug Wilder, and Jerry Brown. He had good crowds in New Hampshire, but in January 1992, the Jennifer Flowers story broke. Flowers said she had a 12 year affair with him and she had taped phone conversation, as well. To respond, Bill and Hillary went on 60 Minutes and things died down. However, the Wall Street Journal came out with a story about the draft and ROTC, stating Clinton didn't have a deferment and Col. Holmes said Clinton misled him to get out of the draft. The story was untrue, but without records and people alive to put the record straight, it was hard to fight back. However, Friends of Bill (FOB) and Arkansas volunteers came out to support him. Clinton ran the full draft letter, his only record, in the newspaper. He came in a respectable second place behind Tsongas. The campaign picked up steam winning in Georgia, South Carolina, Illinois, (even after Hillary made a remark about not staying at home to make "tea and cookies"), and Michigan. However, he lost in Connecticut, which made the New York primary even more important.

I think this sums up Clinton's philosophy of running:

"Finally I concluded that anyone who believed he had something to offer should just run, deal with whatever charges arose, and trust the American people." (p. 332-333)

Do you think he would have beat Bush in 1988 if he ran?

Yes, if he could have had a third term (which of course is not allowed at this point in time largely due to FDR's lengthy term in office and political party backlash) - and if not that first term then most definitely the next one.

Bentley wrote: "Yes, if he could have had a third term (which of course is not allowed at this point in time largely due to FDR's lengthy term in office and political party backlash) - and if not that first term t..."

Yeah, interesting; His term would end in 1996 rather than 2000...maybe Gore would have been president from 1997-2001.

I think he would have done a better job than Dukakis. Dukakis seemed to fall easily into the liberal label being from Massachusetts.

I am so behind :(

But I enjoy reading your comments. Hopefully I catch up.
I am also in other reading groups and sometimes I have to do a 'self-study'. Please continue posting your thoughts and additional info. I will get to it ... just not this week ;)

Verena, assisting moderator Bryan will be moving through each new section of the book on a weekly basis. Our books are heavily moderated so you have no fears that the discussion and posts will keep moving along. When you get caught up, simply go to the correct weekly thread that corresponds to the page you are on and then you can post there and in other threads as you move along. We are always here for you when you get caught up. But the discussion keeps moving forward.

Verena wrote: "I am so behind :(

But I enjoy reading your comments. Hopefully I catch up.
I am also in other reading groups and sometimes I have to do a 'self-study'. Please continue posting your thoughts and a..."

As Bentley says, no worries, I look at all the threads. I know it is a thick book, but I'm glad you are sticking with it!

Bryan wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Yes, if he could have had a third term (which of course is not allowed at this point in time largely due to FDR's lengthy term in office and political party backlash) - and if not t..."

You know, Clinton got into a little trouble with releasing a prisoner like Dukakis did. Although the parole board recommend an early release for an inmate, he ended up killing someone; it came up when he ran for governor in 1982.

I thought his assessment of Reagan is interesting:

"Reagan was something of a mystery to me, at once friendly and distant. I was never sure how much he knew about the human consequences of his harshest policies, or whether he was using hard-core right or was being used by them; the books about him don't give a definitive answer, and because he developed Alzheimer's disease, we'll probably never know." (p. 345-346)

Bryan wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Yes, if he could have had a third term (which of course is not allowed at this point in time largely due to FDR's lengthy term in office and political party backlash) ..."

These things happen; prisons are never the answer for our social problems and if we put everyone away indefinitely, we would have even more or a moral and legal problem on our hands versus the fact that some of these folks are not safe to be released to society.

It seems to be a catch 22 - look at the riots in London and the fact that there are 7 year olds among the rioters; what do we do with these kids - put them in jail for life and throw away the key. The parole board is the one that made the determination and no matter if it were a Republican, a Democrat, or some other political party in charge as governor - the end result would have been the same.

As far as Reagan; it really is a mystery - I remember posting a very revealing video where the Queen was entertaining guests and Reagan and his wife on one of the large cruise ships I believe and he was looking for decaf coffee - the exchange that took place in this gathering between Reagan and the Queen was extremely revealing. I know I posted it somewhere on the HBC site. Reagan always had that ready smile but I too wonder how intimate he was with others and whether he used his policies to attract needed constituencies. I am not sure about his statement about the books not giving a definitive answer - I think there are folks who love Reagan and others who think his policies were bad for America. Maybe he felt that if Reagan while out of office was able to articulate more about his presidential years then some good questions could have been posed to him like the ones I guess which are posed of Carter, Clinton and the Bushes for that matter.

I liked Clinton's laws of politics: "All elections are about the future...A good record is helpful mostly as evidence that you'll do what you say if reelected." (p. 352)

Do you agree with this sentiment?

Times change and the state of America has changed. So sometimes things that were a good idea when we did not have two wars still going on might not be viable now. So your record during previous times or under different circumstances may not hold water in the future.

Of course, we also voted in the case of the last national election in terms of our choice of president for both wars to be stopped and all of the troops to be pulled out. That was the campaign promise. For example, I am still waiting for that campaign promise to be fulfilled. So do you evaluate a candidate and an elected official simply on campaign promises fulfilled or not?

Also, if someone abstains rather than votes yes or no because they do not want to blemish their voting record; I look more askance at that practice than standing up for what you believe in whether I personally agree with you or not. At least then I believe you stand for what you stand for and do not try to juggle the cards and the hand you have been dealt or straddle the fence. Straddling the fence is probably the one characteristic which bothers me the most because it is that practice which most crowd pleasers practice. You just cannot go down the middle of the road with your record and be a strong leader. That just does not happen. So to me a good record is one where you stood up for what you believed in and did not talk out of both sides of your mouth or with a forked tongue (smile).

So maybe that is what Clinton is talking about with a good record - one that shows strong leadership, intestinal fortitude and a backbone versus one that does not. If that is the case, then I strongly agree with him and that statement.

And sometimes circumstances do not permit you to fulfill your promise even if you really wanted to.

I think your assessment is a good one, Bentley. Clinton's sentiment might also fall under "what you done for me lately." Another law in politics.

Interesting view Bryan. How much about Bill Clinton is real or strategized. You have to wonder about folks who become president: how much of who they are is marketed and developed as a story line including their views on pretty much anything. I can't think of one person more political than Bill Clinton.

I agree that circumstances can change which make your promises look foolish or out of touch. But how do you judge the veracity of a politician?

Bentley wrote: "I agree that circumstances can change which make your promises look foolish or out of touch. But how do you judge the veracity of a politician?"

I think sometimes a situation comes up where you can't make a campaign pledge, but the best of them try to get most of them done.

So far Clinton is very optimistic in his world view and it is good. You know he came up against "what have you done for me lately" thinkers, but Clinton sees it as doing something good for the state, more positive spin on it.

Spin for sure. Sometimes he acts as if he is allowing us to see the whole picture but we never do. I do like the book immensely because you do learn a lot about the man in terms of what he does say and in terms of what he does reveal and explain.

Some information on John Swinder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edw...

Ronald Simmons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_G...

Clinton doesn't go into great detail about how he feels about the death penalty, but it seems he does not favor it, but with special crimes like these two, he made an exception.

Some information on "Third Way":

In the United States, "Third Way" adherents reject fiscal conservatism, and advocate some replacement of welfare with workfare, and sometimes have a stronger preference for market solutions to traditional problems (as in pollution markets), while rejecting pure laissez-faire economics and other libertarian positions. The Third Way style of governing was firmly adopted and partly redefined during the administration of President Bill Clinton. With respect to U.S. presidents, the term "Third Way" was introduced by political scientist Stephen Skowronek, who wrote The Politics Presidents Make (1993, 1997;ISBN 0674689372)[24][25] "Third Way" presidents "undermine the opposition by borrowing policies from it in an effort to seize the middle and with it to achieve political dominance. Think of Nixon’s economic policies, which were a continuation of Johnson’s “Great Society”; Clinton’s welfare reform and support of capital punishment; and Obama’s pragmatic centrism, reflected in his embrace, albeit very recent, of entitlements reform.

After Tony Blair came to power in the UK, Clinton, Blair and other leading Third Way adherents organized conferences to promote the Third Way philosophy in 1997 at Chequers in England. The Third Way think tank and the Democratic Leadership Council are adherents of Third Way politics.
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Wa...)

DLC:
The Third Way is a global movement dedicated to modernizing progressive politics for the information age. Third Way politics seeks a new balance of economic dynamism and social security, a new social compact based on individual rights and responsibilities, and a new model for governing that equips citizens and communities to solve their own problems
(Source: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ka.cfm?kaid=128)

Clinton's opponents:

Bob Kerrey:
a Senator from Nebraska; born in Lincoln, Lancaster County, Nebraska, August 27, 1943; attended the Lincoln Public schools; graduated from the University of Nebraska, Lincoln 1966; served in the United States Navy SEAL special forces unit, 1966-1969; wounded in Vietnam and awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for “conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life”; operated a chain of restaurants and fitness centers 1972-1982; Governor of Nebraska 1983-1987; elected as a Democrat to the United States Senate in 1988; reelected in 1994, and served from January 3, 1989, to January 3, 2001; was not a candidate for reelection in 2000; chairman, Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (One Hundred Fourth Congress); president, New School University in New York City 2001-; member, National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States (9-11 Commission) 2003-2004.
(Source: http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/...)

Tom Harkin:
a Senator and a Representative from Iowa; born in Cumming, Warren County, Iowa, November 19, 1939; attended the public schools; graduated, Iowa State University, Ames 1962; graduated, Catholic University of America Law School, Washington, D.C. 1972; admitted to the Iowa bar in 1972 and commenced practice in Des Moines; served in United States Navy 1962-1967, and Naval reserve 1968-1974; attorney for Polk County, Iowa, Legal Aid Society 1973; member, board of directors, Iowa Consumers League; elected in 1974 as a Democrat to the Ninety-fourth Congress; reelected to the four succeeding Congresses (January 3, 1975-January 3, 1985); was not a candidate for reelection in 1984 to the House of Representatives, but was elected as a Democrat to the United States Senate in 1984; reelected in 1990, 1996, 2002, and again in 2008 for the term ending January 3, 2015; chair, Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry (One Hundred Seventh Congress [January 3-20, 2001; June 6, 2001-January 3, 2003], One Hundred Tenth Congress, and One Hundred Eleventh Congress [January 3, 2009-September 9, 2009]), Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions (One Hundred Eleventh Congress [September 9, 2009-January 3, 2011], and One Hundred Twelfth Congress).
(Source: http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/...)

Paul Tsongas:
a Representative and a Senator from Massachusetts; born in Lowell, Middlesex County, Mass., February 14, 1941; attended the public schools of Lowell; graduated from Dartmouth College, Hanover, N.H., 1962, and from Yale University School of Law 1967; attended the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University 1973-1974; lawyer; admitted to the Massachusetts bar in 1968 and commenced practice in Lowell; served as Peace Corps Volunteer in Ethiopia 1962-1964, and the West Indies 1967-1968; deputy assistant attorney general of Massachusetts 1969-1971; served as Lowell city councillor 1969-1972; Middlesex County (Mass.) commissioner 1973-1974; elected as a Democrat to the Ninety-fourth Congress, November 4, 1974; reelected to the Ninety-fifth Congress (January 3, 1975-January 3, 1979); was not a candidate for reelection to the House of Representatives but was elected in 1978 to the United States Senate; served from January 3, 1979, to January 3, 1985; did not seek reelection; resumed the practice of law in Boston; unsuccessful candidate for 1992 Democratic Presidential nomination; co-founder, The Concord Coalition; was a resident of Lowell, Mass., until his death in Boston, January 18, 1997; interment in Lowell Cemetery
(Source: http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/...)

Jerry Brown:
Edmund G. Brown, Jr., known as Jerry, was born in San Francisco on April 7, 1938. He attended both public and parochial schools, graduating from St. Ignatius High School in 1955. He completed his freshman year at the University of Santa Clara before entering Sacred Heart Novitiate, a Jesuit seminary in August 1956. Two years later, he took vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. In 1960, he left the Society of Jesus and enrolled at the University of California at Berkeley. He received his B.A. degree in Classics the next year and then entered Yale Law School, where he graduated in 1964.

Following law school, Brown worked as a law clerk to California Supreme Court Justice Mathew Tobriner, traveled and studied in Mexico and Latin America and then took up residence in Los Angeles, working for the prestigious law firm, Tuttle & Taylor. In 1969, Brown was elected to the Los Angeles Community College Board of Trustees, placing first in a field of 124. In 1970, he was elected California Secretary of State. During his term, he forced legislators to comply with campaign disclosure laws, exposed President Nixon’s use of falsely notarized documents to improperly earn a large tax deduction and drafted and helped pass the California Fair Political Practices Act. Brown personally argued before the state Supreme Court and won against Gulf, Mobile and Standard Oil for election law violations (Brown vs. Superior Court).

Brown was elected Governor in 1974 and reelected in 1978, by over one million votes.

During Governor Brown’s tenure, California significantly reduced taxes and built up the largest state surplus ever. His eight years in office are generally considered among the most innovative in California history. He established the first agricultural labor relations law in the country, enacted collective bargaining for teachers and other public employees, started the California Conservation Corp (CCC), signed into permanent law the California Coastal Protection Act, earned federal protection of Northern California wild and scenic rivers, brought about the country's first building and appliance energy efficiency standards and made California the leader in solar and alternative energy.

Brown appointed more women, Asians, Latinos and African-Americans to high government positions than any other chief executive.

He also created the nation’s first Wellness Commission, the Office of Appropriate Technology, the Native American Heritage Preservation Commission and the California Commission on Industrial Innovation. As president of the University of California Regents, Brown successfully sponsored the establishment of the prestigious Institute on Global Conflict and Cooperation. Brown legalized the practice of Acupuncture and strongly supported the rights of chiropractors, osteopaths and lay midwives. He also significantly expanded apprenticeship programs and created the California Worksite Education and Training Act (CWETA). He mandated every high school district to establish clear graduation standards and successfully fought for increased math and science requirements for both the California State University and University of California systems.

In the field of crime fighting, Brown enacted hundreds of tough anti-crime measures, including the “Use A Gun Go To Prison” Law and mandatory sentences for rape, sale of heroin, violent crimes against the elderly, child molestation and selling PCP. He established and funded the Career Criminal Prosecution Program, the Career Criminal Apprehension Program and the Crime Resistance Task Force. As a result, the percentage of convicted felons who were sent to state prison increased 100% during his governorship. Recidivism (parolees returning to prison) was a fraction of what it is today. Finally, Brown restructured the California Arts Commission so that it was composed of practicing artists and increased funding by 1300%.

After his defeat by Pete Wilson in the 1982 U.S. Senate race, Brown lectured widely, led delegations to China and the Soviet Union, studied Spanish in Mexico, spent six months in Japan studying Japanese culture and Buddhist practice, worked with Mother Teresa in India at the Home for the Dying and traveled to Bangladesh as a CARE ambassador of good will during the devastating floods of 1988.

Brown again practiced law in Los Angeles and in 1989 became chairman of the state Democratic Party. He resigned that position in 1991, expressing his disgust with the growing influence of money in politics, and sought the 1992 Democratic Presidential nomination. During that campaign he refused to take contributions larger than $100 and used an "800" number to raise funds.

Despite limited financial resources, Brown defeated Bill Clinton in Maine, Colorado, Vermont, Connecticut, Utah and Nevada during the 1992 Presidential primaries and was the only candidate other than Clinton to receive enough voter support to continue until the Democratic National Convention.
(Source: http://www.jerrybrown.org/about)

Doug Wilder:
was the first African American in the United States to be elected governor of a state. A veteran of the Korean War, he was a lawyer by profession, and he was the first black member of the Senate of Virginia in the twentieth century. In 1985 he was elected lieutenant governor, the first African American elected to statewide office in Virginia. Four years later he was elected governor of Virginia. Wilder's inauguration as governor in January 1990 was doubly notable in that the first woman to win election to statewide office, Mary Sue Terry, was sworn in on the same day as attorney general of Virginia. For a brief time in 1991 Wilder was a candidate for the Democratic nomination for president of the United States. His prominence in national politics, based on his achievements in Virginia politics, illustrated how much had changed in Virginia and in the nation since the days when African Americans were often prevented from voting or taking part in public life.
(Source: http://www.lva.virginia.gov/exhibits/...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_...

Pat Buchanan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buch...

Patrick Buchanan has been a senior advisor to three Presidents, a two-time candidate for the Republican presidential nomination, and was the presidential nominee of the Reform Party in 2000.

From 1966 through 1974, Mr. Buchanan was an assistant to Richard Nixon, and from 1985 to 1987, White House Director of Communications for Ronald Reagan. In 1992, Mr. Buchanan challenged George Bush for the Republican nomination and almost upset the President in the New Hampshire primary. In 1996, he won the New Hampshire primary and finished second to Sen. Dole with three million Republican votes.

Born in Washington, D.C., educated at Catholic and Jesuit schools, Pat Buchanan received his master's degree in journalism from Columbia in 1962. At 23, he became the youngest editorial writer on a major newspaper in America, the St. Louis Globe-Democrat.

In 1966, Mr. Buchanan became the first full-time staffer to Richard Nixon in his legendary comeback. He traveled with the future President in the campaigns of 1966 and 1968, and served as special assistant through the final days of Watergate.

On leaving the Ford White House in 1974, Mr. Buchanan became a syndicated columnist and founding member of three of the most enduring if not endearing talk shows in television history: NBC's The McLaughlin Group, and CNN's Capital Gang and Crossfire.

In his White House years, Mr. Buchanan wrote foreign policy speeches, and attended four summits, including Mr. Nixon's historic opening to China in 1972, and Ronald Reagan's Reykjavik summit in 1986 with Mikhail Gorbachev.

Mr. Buchanan has written ten books.

Mr. Buchanan is currently a columnist, political analyst for MSNBC, chairman of The American Cause foundation and an editor of The American Conservative. He is married to the former Shelley Ann Scarney, who was a member of the White House Staff from 1969 to 1975.
(Source: http://buchanan.org/blog/biography)

I found these chapters so interesting especially due to the exposure/discussion of how these various governors discussed/considered running for the presidency. These governors all were telling each other (well maybe not all) that they could do it/ would be a good choice etc. I don't know about any insecurity at the various governors meetings but the egos, even modest egos, would be notable. Also they seem to feel that so many of the guys might be able to do it that maybe they don't think being President needs such special needs - or maybe they just see each other as capable. Maybe if one feels they can do the job they have to feel other folks can do it too.

W & Obama define for me that it is not so difficult to foul up.

I just get more and more impressed with Clinton. (I just visited his library in Little Rock and was again so impressed - and so depressed as to how far we have gone in the wrong direction in the ten years since he is gone from the Presidency)

So we also see the reinforcing of the relationship of Hillary and Bill- her parents moving to Little Rock - her father’s health problems - that Chelsea was the only grandchild of Hillary's parents.

Clinton's continuing ability to see the problems and situations of constituents is also continually illustrated in these chapters. Having just visited Little Rock with a population of 184,000 people in 2006 (and only 58,000 in adjacent North Little Rock) one can see how much more personal this could be than other governors. I also passed by the Governor's mansion and it is not so imposing or isolated.

Also these chapters continue to reveal his party loyalty - that he defines people by their political inclination or party loyalty. It seems he would view, maybe, supporting a Republican that you thought was better for a given job, as disloyal or wrong.

A couple of personal observations - being a long time New Yorker I was really sorry that Mario Cuomo did not run to president - whatever his reasons - he was/is a forceful speaker and leader - inspirational. I still think that I get to see him at some function of other once a year or so.

The other is the mention (briefly on P 365) of Joe Lieberman and I saw him closer as I lived for four years in Connecticut and I view the guy as the first Senator from Israel. He also reinforced the Gore Lieberman ticket in 2000 by running also for his Senate seat as if he didn't really feel so sure he and Gore could win. (Not really unfair as in the Senate he seems to represent the insurance industry and Israel - not the Connecticut people) - I wonder what Clinton felt about Lieberman’s party loyalty when he ran as an independent when he failed in 2006 to get the Democratic nomination for his run for the Senate.

I was in Little Rock in May and I have to say that I was duly impressed with his library as well. Your comments are terrific Vince and persuasive. I never was particularly enamored with the Lieberman choice nor his becoming an Independent but he seemed to be bent on keeping his seat.

Thanks Vince. Clinton seems to paint himself as a pragmatist, which you probably must be to move to the center of a party.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at some of those governors' meetings.

Bryan wrote: "I think this sums up Clinton's philosophy of running:

"Finally I concluded that anyone who believed he had something to offer should just run, deal with whatever charges arose, and trust the Ameri..."

Personally, I think it would have been too soon for Clinton and Reagan's VP would have been too formidable a foe. Interesting thought though.

Verena wrote: "I am so behind :(

But I enjoy reading your comments. Hopefully I catch up.
I am also in other reading groups and sometimes I have to do a 'self-study'. Please continue posting your thoughts and a..."

I'm glad I'm not the only one Verena! I'm determined to finish this, but I'm not quite to the halfway point yet. Keep plugging away!

Bryan wrote: "I thought his assessment of Reagan is interesting:

"Reagan was something of a mystery to me, at once friendly and distant. I was never sure how much he knew about the human consequences of his ha..."

Love this quote. Granted I was 12 when Reagan was first elected, but to put it bluntly he always seemed a little out of it, not really completely "there", and not all that bright to me. I always felt like he was used as a puppet.

He is one of the more interesting presidents IMO, because my belief is you loved him or you hated him, and lots of people loved him. I'm sure as I read more, I'll begin to understand why this is. I did read one Secret Service member's account that spoke of what a kind person he was, and I truly believe that; however, that seems at odds with his policies.

When the diagnosis of Alzheimer's became public, it all finally clicked for me. It just seemed to fit with my impressions of him.

Absolutely, Laura, read at your own pace. I'm still around :-)

Yeah 1988 would have been tough to win. I think he might have gotten more votes than Dukakis did, though.

Bentley wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Yes, if he could have had a third term (which of course is not allowed at this point in time largely due to FDR's lengthy term in office and political pa..."

For me, he seemed anything but genuine. I felt like the whole thing was an act. Which fit with his prior career. And the same for Mrs. Reagan. They both seemed very Hollywood, plastic, to me.

Bryan wrote: "Absolutely, Laura, read at your own pace. I'm still around :-)

Yeah 1988 would have been tough to win. I think he might have gotten more votes than Dukakis did, though."

My goodness, I think anyone would have got more votes than Dukakis, lol! 1988 was my first election, and I still remember the utter depression as the results came in.

Glad you're still around Bryan! :D

Laura wrote: "For me, he seemed anything but genuine. I felt like the whole thing was an act. Which fit with his prior career. And the same for Mrs. Reagan. They both seemed very Hollywood, plastic, to me.
"

You are right, Laura, either you loved him or hated him. I think he is a fascinating president, as well.

I hear Reagan was a very nice man but I understand your point-both lived the Hollywood life.

Bryan wrote: "Some information on John Swinder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edw...

Ronald Simmons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_G...

Clinton doesn't go into great detail about how..."

Just a thought on the death penalty (if you can be 100% certain that the convicted committed the crime) and if it was of such a nature that it imposed terrible suffering etc then the death penalty insulates society from suffering from the perpetrator again. This is not a reflection of punishment but of protection.

I also think that the death penalty survives longer in the US because as recently as 130 years ago (maybe less) in western state communities did not have prisons and if someone was a dirty dog hanging/executing means they won't do it again.

just some thoughts

Bentley wrote: "Times change and the state of America has changed. So sometimes things that were a good idea when we did not have two wars still going on might not be viable now. So your record during previous t..."

Boy - reading these comments I wonder, for me, how to support Mr. Obama again.

Clinton seems to have kept his word or if he couldn't to have made his supporters understand why etc.

Vince, I have to agree but as all of the late night pundits say - Obama is still ahead considering his opponents on the Republican side.

I like the fact Clinton did try to talk about why he did or didn't do anything. Smart way of doing things, I say.

Yes, very much so - and not blaming others for what he could do or could not do. Everybody would understand if you tried to keep your campaign promises and the Congress voted you down. But not keeping them for other reasons is quite another thing.

And blaming Congress is also a workable option--Truman and the 1948 Republican special session, I believe. Now Truman can blame the "do nothing" Republicans.

These chapters again make me wonder if Clinton could not have made a living writing books (it worked for Churchill)

His standing up to Gingrich and the Republicans over the budget I thought at the time was great and it still seems such - I wonder that/if Obama doesn't have the same option. But I am a bit curious if the $61 billion (pg 683) borrowed by Rubin from retirment money (Social Security I assume) was ever returned and if so when.

Also for the second shutdown on Pg 690 Clinton says that essential wovernment employees worked without pay and I am really curious if they did not get paid when the budget was straightenend so it was really "delayed pay" - I may try to check that one out if none of us know.

I was pleased to read of his regualr use of the veto and FYI I checked some comparisons.
Clinton in 8 years - 36 vetos
George W Bush in 8 yrs - only 10
Bush 1 in 4 yrs - 36
Ford in less than 4 yrs - 48 (he is my hero for defending the power of the presidency in the post Nixon anger - and I really liked his efforts and results)
Full listing is here
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A080176...

Pg 696 showed hos Clinton was "sold" the C-17 - take a look at this NY Times article about Panetta and the Osprey
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/us/...

My son worked on this aircraft while at the Pentagon and he told me when they were first put into action in Iraq they were careful to protect them from danger. The end of a quarter century struggle

Page 712 mentions that Robert Dole resigned from the Senate to run for President - just makes me think of one of my non-heros Joe Lieberman who, when he ran for VP with Gore, still ran for his Senate seat - I guess he didn't give full effort to his VEEP run.

just some thoughts

I do not think that Social Security should ever have been touched. And I agree with you on your other other assessments.

Yes Bentley - thanks

And for Social Security bthe first ever reduction in funding since the beginning 76 years ago. You are 100% right. the eventual justrification to reduce or eliminate it.

Terrible thing, these politicians - how they weave and dance. Why hurt the one thing that helps so many people and everyone for the most part eventually.

Vince wrote: "These chapters again make me wonder if Clinton could not have made a living writing books (it worked for Churchill)

His standing up to Gingrich and the Republicans over the budget I thought at the..."

Thanks Vince. Good stuff. Dole was "old school" and really wanted to step down for the sake of the Senate.

Wow, 36 vetoes...it gives you a real sense the battle between him and the Republicans!