James Joyce Reading Group discussion

The Sisters - Why does it appear first in the collection?

There has been some validation of the theory that Joyce wanted Dubliners to start with concerns of the young and develop the POV throughout the stories to adult concerns, and on to the concerns of public life. If that is indeed true, then it makes perfect sense that The Sisters should be the opening story...a story about a death that effects the psyche of a young boy.

Why is it called The Sisters?

Well (again) I realize that the sympathy is only skin deep, but from where I'm sitting, the sisters are the only ones in the story that seem to sympathize with the boy's perspective. The other adults seem to want to write "old Cotter" off as little more than a closet pedophile. It may be that their sympathy isn't as sincere as the boy's deeper feeling for the deceased, but I can't help but think that if this boy is looking around for someone to relate to, the sisters are his only real allies.

I also realize that Joyce's thinking is often layered, and he was all about creating puzzles. I may be searching for the easiest answer, and that is usually a mistake with Joyce. Nonetheless, it seems the only solution my poor brain can offer.

Nonetheless, I think there's something to my hypothesis. Aren't all the characters in the stories looking for someone they can trust or relate to in some deeper way?

The boy in Araby is trying to figure out what he wants from the girl (romance is the obvious desire here), and he finds he can't trust in their relationship (because they don't have one...the relationship only really exiists in the boy's mind). So in that case, he tries to trust in his own instincts but they fail him, from a stronger desire fuelled by his vanity.

And there in itself is a progression - the progression from the young boy in the first story that tries to trust in adults, which moves on to a story where a boy tries to trust his own instincts...a logical progression of emotional maturity.

There are many other examples, but I think many of these stories boil down to the same formula - a character is "just trying to get by" in one way or another, and life (or Dublin society in particular) comes crashing down on one's best intentions.

Joyce felt betrayed by Dublin and its society; that is one reason why he left Ireland for the continent. I think he was trying to show how the culture of Dublin, in all its moral paralysis, is a place where you can't really trust anyone, even your wife (as Gabriel learns in The Dead, but as I said in another post, that ending is perhaps misinterpreted by many - I see them coming away from that experience with the potential for emotional growth).

There are always secrets and the interests of others that can pull us away from real intimacy or fruitful relationships. I think The Sisters introduces this idea through the eyes of a child, and therefore it seems like the perfect place to start the collection.

chalk one up for the Aussie chick peeps ... she's read her first Joyce story!

Phillip - I have sneaking suspicion that I may come around to your way of thinking once I've read the other stories in Dubliners ... but I'll hold fire for now ...

I felt the story was cut into two distinct pieces ... the first piece was open and honest - the narrator / young man (I didn't get the feeling that he was a child or too much younger than 12) was describing and interpreting - albeit a little mysteriously, but I felt like that was because he hadn't sorted it all out himself ...

the second piece (after he goes with his Aunt to visit the sisters - and I'm left wondering if they were Rev James' actual sisters or sisters of the church) was much less interpretive - a more factual account of what was going on ... it seemed to me that the sisters were more of a puzzle to the narrator than allies ... so much so that he gives up trying to interpret and simply relays the puzzle as he found it

for the record - I think his Aunt was his real ally - she had no opinion about Rev James while old Cotter and the Uncle gossiped and antagonised the young man ... I get the feeling that she may have encouraged the friendship - certainly providing High Toast as a gift ... and she did go with the narrator to visit Rev James after he died

at first I was a little frustrated by how drawn in I was with this story that didn't reveal everything - that left me with questions that I'll never have definitive answers to ... but after reading it a second time - I'm much more at peace with it (does that mean I'm getting old?) - I can see the hints and layers that I'm meant to think upon and ponder myself - Joyce certainly isn't going to spoon feed me

alright then ... on to An Encounter

yeah sam!

thanks for posting your thoughts on this one. i'm in kind of a rush this morning, but i'll comment more later.

you know what pg - i think this is my favourite Dubliner's story ...

the sisters?

i like araby a lot. i guess i could relate to that little boy. and the dead? wow, that ending....

what is it about this one, sam i am?

honestly? ... it was the only one that i actually got without having to analyse it too much ...

i need to practice reading this sort of thing more pg - i'm not used to it - so i really need have my brain switched on to keep up ... but i'm often reading at the end of the day before bed and that isn't ideal for thinkin' readin' ...

but i haven't given up as yet, i'm planning to re-read them all over again with the aim of figuring them out more completely ... but on first pass through Dubliners this is my favourite ...

wait until you visit me, we can read them together.

deal ... cool!

Seems to me Sisters might have been the first story in order to introduce the themes implicit in the 3 words, paralysis, gnomon, and simony. Although the words are presented as merely "strange sounding" words to a young boy, I think they will crop up thematically in other stories...just a theory. Phillip mentioned paralysis, but I think the others might relate too.

Gnomon, the missing part of a parallelogram when a smaller, embedded parallelogram which shares a corner, is taken away. The conversation in the Sisters is full of silences, unspoken words, gaps, secrets, withheld information, but also misspoken words. When Eliza says, "If we could only get one of them new-fangled carriages...-them with the rheumatic wheels--.." I think she means "pneumatic wheels", the newly invented inflatable tires invented in 1887, just a few years before the 1895 of the story. Also, "simony" brings to mind the unspoken "sodomy".

what is the chalice? It also appears in Araby.

Just started reading Dubliners again. :)

's a great collection!

exquisitely polished gems....

Suzann wrote: "Seems to me Sisters might have been the first story in order to introduce the themes implicit in the 3 words, paralysis, gnomon, and simony. Although the words are presented as merely "strange soun..."

Although an awful lot of Dubliners' criticism has been devoted to examining the importance of the three italicized word from the opening paragraph of The Sisters I find this effort mis-focused.
A truer "key" word in the first paragraph is "candles". Compare
the use in Sisters with the use in Grace (the original last story).

Suzann wrote: "Gnomon, the missing part of a parallelogram when a smaller, embedded parallelogram which shares a corner, is taken away. The conversation in the Sisters is full of silences, unspoken words, gaps, s..."

"Also, simony brings to mind the unspoken sodomy."
The imagined old priest's lust for the boy is one of the most baseless ideas ever presented about this story.

Just a thought on one of the motivations for James Joyce using the the word "gnomon" in the sisters. He may have been influenced in part by: "The Gnomon of the New Testament... written in 1742 by Johann Albrecht Bengel and is the result of twenty years’ labor. Bengel’s Gnomon awakened a fresh interest in the study of the New Testament. The Gnomon of the New Testament is still one of the books most valued by expositors of the New Testament." (https://www.logos.com/product/6076/gn...) Note how Bengel was received in his use of the Greek version of the bible as he tries to ferret out the true meaning of the New Testament.

One senses Joyce always using words like a priest invoking substance from their sound.

Much has been made about what is missing re: "gnomon" but the word can refer to a stick whose angular shadow points to the passing of time. The stories start with sisters and end with sisters in "The Dead."

One senses that Joyce would have more than one reason for his choice of words. So, perhaps, we can only hope to enrich our understanding of the complexity of many of his word choices.

yes, he loved using words that could incite multiple readings, or words that have different meanings. nice scholarship, folks.

Twin candles also in "Ivy Day."

Bob wrote: "Twin candles also in "Ivy Day.""
Yes, two candlesticks are mentioned in "Ivy Day". I used an online concordance to study the word "candles" and found it occurred once in "The Sisters" and three times, close together, in "Grace". In all four instance the candles being spoken of were being used religiously.

The opening story if _Dubliners_ bookended by "The Dead;" I mean, the titles of the stories alone could easily be switched, traded, juxtaposed: there's a dead priest (Father Flynn) in "The Sisters" and the two sisters in "The Dead."

I think people/First Time Joyce readers could easily go straight from _Dubliners_ to _Ulysses_ (nothing against _Stephen Hero_ and _Portrait_ of course).

Allen wrote: "The opening story if _Dubliners_ bookended by "The Dead;" I mean, the titles of the stories alone could easily be switched, traded, juxtaposed: there's a dead priest (Father Flynn) in "The Sisters"..."

Joyce was peddling Dubliners to publishers as early as 1905. The Dead wasn't completed until 1907, which leads me to believe that the author saw the fourteen stories The Sisters to Grace as a completed set. I also see a strong thematic relationship between the boy's, "two candles must" in the first story and the man's, "no candles" in the fourteenth. I read the change in attitude as an evolution of thought: the boy's indoctrination in and the man's freedom from superstition.

Allen wrote: "I think people/First Time Joyce readers could easily go straight from _Dubliners_ to _Ulysses_ (nothing against _Stephen Hero_ and _Portrait_ of course)."

I completely agree. Portrait can be a stumbling block, but with repeated readings it's brilliance does come forward. There is also another alternative: to just take on Ulysses straight-off: sink or swim!

Mark wrote: "Allen wrote: "I think people/First Time Joyce readers could easily go straight from _Dubliners_ to _Ulysses_ (nothing against _Stephen Hero_ and _Portrait_ of course)."

I completely agree. Portrai..."

Ulysses is gorgeous. I highly recommend diving into that. Dubliners was not an outstanding collection of short stories. There are better. Finnegans Wake is fun but would frustrate newcomers to Joyce’s work. For those not ready for Ulysses, Portrait is a great intro. that reveals Joyce’s brilliance.

Why such a poor opinion of Dubliners?

Stephen wrote: "Just a thought on one of the motivations for James Joyce using the the word "gnomon" in the sisters. He may have been influenced in part by: "The Gnomon of the New Testament... written in 1742 by J..."

I agree that Joyce loved to use words that had multiple meanings. But usually it's more simple words he likes to play with: words like "corner" or "crossed" in this story. But the comment is coming from the mind of a ten or eleven year old boy. And it is the strangeness, he says, of the sound of the word "gnomon" and the sound of word "simony" that he uses to accent his disturbance in dealing with the priest's "paralysis".

Of course folks can just dive into Ulysses, no fuss no muss! I always recommend folks to start off with Dubliners if they're hearty readers and want to give Joyce a solid chance. I'd recommend Portrait over Dubliners if the person's in a rush. Portrait is amazing and invites the reader to form a connection with Stephen from the outset. I think it gives them a solid running start for Ulysses.

Finnegans Wake is amazing, too. I refuse to believe anyone who says otherwise. I'll happily study that book forever.

Joyce is a genius.

Biblio wrote: "Of course folks can just dive into Ulysses, no fuss no muss! I always recommend folks to start off with Dubliners if they're hearty readers and want to give Joyce a solid chance. I'd recommend Port..."
I'm curious! Since I don't believe Stephen is the hero in Ulysses meeting him in Portrait is not as important to me. But leaving that aside for the moment what is it about Dubliners do you think that may put people off?

Mark wrote: "Why such a poor opinion of Dubliners?"

They’re conventional short stories. There are better ones out there with more punch in the short story format.

Ok. Cool. Conventional. Better. Punch. Got it. Thanks.

Mark wrote: "Ok. Cool. Conventional. Better. Punch. Got it. Thanks."

Lol. I’m working and don’t feel like writing a dissertation.

Cool.

*husstenhasstencaffincoffintussemtossemdamandamnacosaghcusa-ghhobixhatouxpeswchbechoscashlcarcarcaract*

*husstenhasstencaffincoffintussemtossemdamandamnacosaghcusa-ghhobixhatouxpeswchbechoscashlcarcarcaract!!!*

*Ptooie!!!*

I'm hosting #Dubliners2019 this month on YT if anyone cares to chim in . . .

Mark wrote: "Ok. Cool. Conventional. Better. Punch. Got it. Thanks."

Of course, The Dead is one of those stories in Dubliners. Nothing conventional about that. In my opinion.