The Modern Library 100 Best Novels Challenge discussion

This book was tied for the September 2011 vote but wins by virtue of being nominated first.

On a personal note I'm excited about it as I really enjoyed the last book of his we read, Henderson the Rain King.

First question: At 586 pages, this book is a little above the 500 page mark I had in my mind as the "too big for one month." What does the group think, should we read it over one month or two?

I read this one 15-20 years ago and really enjoyed it. I couldn't even tell you the main character's name now... I do remember really liking it, and (at the time) the length wasn't that daunting. Today 586pp sounds like an awful lot for one month.

I started listening to this audiobook a few days ago, and the narrator is super. I also listened to Henderson, but found myself re-reading passages and chapters of the print just to better absorb and appreciate Bellow's genius. From what little I've read of Augie March, the same is true. Bellow is certainly a wordsmith. A month would probably be a little quick for me, but I've got a bit of a jump on September. I'm also reading The Art of Fielding, which I'm completely addicted to, and Ready Player One which is also interesting. I'm fine either way - one month or two.

In the spirit of trying to spur some more conversations in the group, I propose that we break the read into chapter segments that we’ll read by certain dates. That way, we can all talk about the book as we go.

Also, since this book is of moderate length, let’s break it over two months. This will give us eight full weeks of reading and a short week with five days in it to talk about the book as a whole.

Additionally, I’d like to start having the person who nominated the winning book (if they are willing), help lead the discussions on their book. The adventures of Augie March was nominated by Vinny, who I’ve talked with and is willing to help. Thanks, Vinny!

I propose the following schedule, assuming it works with Vinny:

September 1-7th, Chapters 1-3 (3 chapters)
September 8th-14th, Chapters 4-6 (3 chapters)
September 15th-21st, Chapters 7-10 (4 chapters)
September 22nd-28th, Chapters 11-13 (3 chapters)
September 29th-October 5th, Chapters 14-16 (3 chapters)
October 6th-12th, Chapters 17-19 (3 chapters)
October 13th-19th, Chapters 20-23 (4 chapters)
October 20th-26th, Chapters 24-26 (3 chapters)
October 27th-31st, General discussion of the book

Let me know what you guys think!

Sounds like a good idea, Shawn. I'm all for it.

Excellent idea Shawn. The division is great and i think too it will prompt more discussion.

I like that idea. And if someone isn't to the point of the discussion, they can always read back on it when they get there, or when they are finished.

I think that works really well. This is one of the books on the list that I've really wanted to read for a while. It will be nice to read it with a group.

Crap, I knew this would happen. I'm still reading the book I was on before joining this group (Sophie's Choice) and I probably won't be finished in time to join in the conversation.

I guess I better get reading!

I finished the first chapter today. We're being introduced to some interesting characters!

Shawn wrote: "In the spirit of trying to spur some more conversations in the group, I propose that we break the read into chapter segments that we’ll read by certain dates. That way, we can all talk about the bo..."

I like the nominater to be helping lead the book. Also thanks for having a guideline on when and what chapters to be discussing. This guideline should help us greatly, that way we are not talking too widely, and it gives us something to talk about. Thanks Gregory D. ROthbard

I'm liking Five Properties so far...

Mrs. H wrote: "I'm liking Five Properties so far..." tell us more, what do you find appealing about Five Properties?

: I like it a lot but it is a great change from Gravity's Rainbow.

Well, I've finished the third chapter. I'm enjoying the characters, especially their "grandma." It still feels to me that the plot, whatever it might be, is still to be unfolded as not much has yet happened.

I'm with Shawn on liking Grandma Lausch. She's rather tyranical and harsh, but she has great hopes for 2 of the boys and doesn't really expect anything unreasonable. They really seem to kowtow to her.

The problem with the picaresque style, is that, without a plot or storyline that you can follow, it doesn't have that "can't wait to pick it up and read" feel to it.

Unlike some other desultory type of characters, aka: Sal and Dean in On The Road,whose nomadic wanderings are pathetic to me, and the indolent floundering of the wanna-be Studs Lonigan, Augie at least seems to want to do good and is making a reasonable effort, with some bad breaks causing most of his angst.

Looking forward to seeing if his efforts pan out.

I'm also enjoying the book. The first part of the book definitely gives us an idea of where Augie gets his world view from. I just love Grandma Lausch; I can "hear" her accent.
I also agree that there isn't anything there yet to really grab you. I've sort of set myself the assignment of reading the book everyday at lunch, and then it always seems like a chore. But once I get through the first page or so and get back into Bellow's rhythm I find myself enjoying it and sorry to close the book for the day.

It’s strange, to me at least, that Augie’s mother has abdicated so much of the power that she’d otherwise have. It sort of reminds me of Pip’s father figure in Great Expectations.

The way she's described, I don't think she necessarily "abdicated" power. While Augie describes her and Georgie as "simple," in the 1920s that could have meant a lot of different things. The physical description of Georgie as being handsome makes me think it wasn't something like Downs Syndrome.

Great analysis, Chris!

Some major changes occur over these three chapters. Having Georgie put into a home and the death of Winnie, take alot of responsiblity away from Augie. I like how he summed it up: "After that we had a diminished family life, as though it were care of Georgie that had been the main basis of household union and now everything was disturbed".

He becomes the caretaker assistant of William Einhorn, and sometime after he gives an introspective that I thought was precocious: "What did I, out of all this, want for myself? My brother Simon wasn't much my senior, and he and others at our age already had got the idea there was a life to lead and had chosen their directions, while I was circling yet. And Einhorn, what services he needed of me he pretty well knew, but what I was to get from him wasn't at all clear."

Then the old boarder, Grandma Lausch is put into a home, and her Machiavellian influence over Augie seems to be transferred to Einhorn.

You get the feeling Augie is a big lump of clay waiting for someone else to mold him, yet at the same time he seems to resist being molded. He doesn't seem to have any specific interests (Simon had a number of them and they definitely seem to have shaped him) but goes along with whatever is put in front of him.

I was sad to see my favorite character so far, la grande-mère, move. I thought the passage where Augie was feeling some remorse for his action when confronted with the finality of her moving contrasted nicely with the similar event of when grandma did the same to Georgie.

Power is being passed on to the second generation all around, with even the commissioner being replaced with Einhorn.

My guess is that now things are going to start getting exciting.

I have to keep reminding myself that Augie is very young at this. (I don't think he's out of high school when Grandma is sent to the home.) He acts like someone much older - and of course talks like someone with an extremely good classical education. Augie sees Grandma as the first in a long line of people who will try to shape him. I really enjoy the interconnectedness of the various characters though - where everyone seems to know everyone.

I can't remember the last time I've had to look up this many words:
infusorial
epthalamium
casuistry
euglena
Part of me wants to appreciate the brain power that went into it, and part of me wants to say, "Oh, just get on with it."

Chris, I think the reason he sounds so much older and more educated than he is in the story is that he's narrating from a point in the future, or in other words from the pov of an adult. It's not usually obvious, but occasionally he'll throw in one of those "later, when I was in Naples, I'd..." that tells you that the person who's telling the story is an adult Augie.

As for how he acts, I'd attribute that to the fact that (I assume) kids had to grow up pretty fast during the Depression.

I'm really starting to enjoy the story, starting around chapter eight. The added conflict of him chasing a girl compounded with his self-discovery is quite interesting (finally).

Also, what do you guys think about the level of detail added to some of these characters? The little touches and complexity at each level makes me think the author is heavily drawing from his real life experiences.

Drew, I agree. This is further expanded in chapter 10 where we see the Augie gaining knowledge from his readings. If he keeps up at this pace, the future Augie must be well read indeed.

I just finished chapter 13. I can finally say that there is a plot and all of Bellow's time spent developing the characters has really paid. It's all I can do to restrain myself from tearing into the next few pages.

Yeah...somewhere around there I stopped restraining myself, and I finished the book two days ago or thereabouts. Definitely really liked it.

I also exercised no restraint and finished the book. I can see why Bellow won some accolades for this book, he really covers a wide range of human emotion, struggle, and growth.

Yeah, as far as I can tell, it's his most ambitious novel, and possibly his most successful. I've also read Ravelstein, Henderson the Rain King and Dangling Man, and this was way better than any of them.

I hope you guys will continue to offer your insights as the rest of the groups begins to catch up with you :).

Chapter 16 ends with the proverbial "cliff-hanger," as Augie goes flying over the cliff. I didn't see that coming. It make me think it might be heading towards a dystopian ending.

How are you guys coming with the reading? Enjoying it? Starting to have thoughts about where it will end?

I am having a real love/hate relationship with this book. I understand what Bellow is trying to do and in that respect, he offers some excellent observations about fate and character and life. It is definitely the kind of book you could study almost line by line, if you wanted to. At the same time, I really don't want to! I find some sections are just so overwritten. The time in Mexico seemed interminable to me. But I'm also enjoying the basic premise of the story and waiting to see what, if anything, Augie actually becomes.

Hey Chris, interesting write-up. I too wonder where this all is headed. I hear what you're saying about Bellow talking about fate-- I find that part of of fascinating. For some reason, I haven't even noticed Bellow spending a lot of time on descriptives (guess that's a good thing!).

Well guys, by now most of us have finished reading the book. What did you think?

I've finished it. I've thought about how and why I feel that I should like it. But the bottom line is that I didn't. To me, a book that fails to spark my interest, make me care what happens to the character, fails as a book. From what I've read about Bellow, he really felt he succeeded in writing the book he wanted to write. Fine for him. I felt like it was an author saying, "See how smart I am that I know all about these different philosophers and these really big words and so I'm going to bury you in all these different ways of tell you that my main character is like water, he takes the shape of whatever is around him - except he doesn't want to be water, he just doesn't want anyone else to turn him into earth, air, or fire." When Bellow got away from that and told more of a story I found my interest picking up. This was true with some of Augie's boyhood adventures and especially Mimi's abortion. I was especially disappointed in the ending. I found the section where he was trapped in the boat interminable. I was really hoping for some kind of wrap up, but it wasn't there for me.
Did anyone else think that throughout the book Bellow was foreshadowing that Simon would attempt suicide? There seemed to be numerous indicators of that, but it never happened. I also never really understood what it was that drove Simon, or was it just to be the negative of Augie, someone to take on whatever role someone wanted him to take if it would make him successful (if unfulfilled in many ways)?
All in all, very meh. If I hadn't been reading it with this group, I probably would not have finished it.

My thoughts:

Augie’s story is an interesting one. It isn’t quite a dystopian tale, rather it is a struggle of one man to find his life’s path and his battle with what he views as fate. Augie is buffeted from one place and situation to another by more dominate personalities. The thread of his life is searching, searching, searching and even by the end this exploration isn’t completely wrapped up although he does come to several realizations about life and the strange desires that are at war within the human condition. Perhaps, at the end of the day, that’s what this novel is about-- not reaching a conclusion but pointing out several false conundrums and stimulating thought about the philosophy of our existence.

Chris, I too thought that Simon would off himself. I think he came close a few times. Perhaps it was just Bellow's way of saying that chasing money doesn't lead to happiness?

It was also interesting to me how he would be describing something and then, sort of parenthetically, say why he was telling you this. For instance, near the end of the book while he's on the ship he is describing who all was on the ship and then says something like, If I'm speaking about them in the past tense it's because the ship was torpedoed. Wow, what a segue.

For me, it was 3/5. It had some great moments but I never fell in love with it.

I finished the book last month and held any final comments until now, but I have forgotten most of what I was thinking. I mentioned that I could understand why Bellow won awards and accolades for the writing, but I think Chris and Shawn both summed up very well the overall feeling I had for the book. I don't think the character was nearly as hopelees as Studs Lonigan, but nearly as much failure in catching my favor.