Discovering Russian Literature discussion

When I was recently talking to a friend, I told her about the group and the first thing she said was: Russian lit. is depressing! It's true that Russian literature has frequently reflected themes of misery, suffering, sadness, torment mental anguish, suicide etc. But is reading Russian literature depressing?

What are the most depressing books you've read?

She gave me several examples for most depressing books: Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk by Nikolai Leskov, The Village by Ivan Bunin, Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy


Is it a surprise that Russian lit. contains such themes? With Czarist misrule, the Napoleonic War, the Crimean War, WW I and WW II , the Bolshevik Revolution, the brutal Civil War, the Stalinist repression and the poverty etc. Can't we say that these the greatest writers were influenced by them and wrote about their times? or is it because most of them too suffered like the characters in their works?

Any thoughts?

Yes, it is depressing in parts but its also terribly funny (in a bleak, dark, sardonic sort of way) and excitedly fantastical in many respects. In addition, when we speak of RL we are generally referring to the classics and many of the classics, whatever the country they were born in, are bleak.

I think a wonderful thing about one of the greatest Russian novels, War and Peace, is that it takes us through the horrors of war into peace and the hope which comes with it.

MadgeUK wrote: "I think a wonderful thing about one of the greatest Russian novels, War and Peace, is that it takes us through the horrors of war into peace and the hope which comes with it."

Too true

Vikz wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I think a wonderful thing about one of the greatest Russian novels, War and Peace, is that it takes us through the horrors of war into peace and the hope which comes with it."

Too ..."

It's interesting how tastes may differ - I thought it was one of the weakest parts of the novel..

Can anybody name one great happy novel in the world literature?

That might be because men usually enjoy stories about war and battles Andrew?

Denmark has been voted the happiest country in the world - I wonder if it has the happiest novel too?

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz...

I would add that much of the religious aspect of Russian lit focuses on redemption, which requires a downfall first. Tolstoy wrote an entire novel about redemption, and fairly somber novels like "Crime and Punishment" also feature redemption as a central theme. While it might seem a bit tough to slog through 600 pages of depressing text to reach a final two pages of redemption, the reader leaves the novel on a hopeful note.

Yes, the Russian Orthodox church has much to answer for!:)

'In the Western churches, both Catholic and Protestant, sin, grace, and salvation are seen primarily in legal terms. God gave humans freedom, they misused it and broke God's commandments, and now deserve punishment. God's grace results in forgiveness of the transgression and freedom from bondage and punishment.

The Eastern churches see the matter in a different way. For Orthodox theologians, humans were created in the image of God and made to participate fully in the divine life. The full communion with God that Adam and Eve enjoyed meant complete freedom and true humanity, for humans are most human when they are completely united with God.

The result of sin, then, was a blurring of the image of God and a barrier between God and man. The situation in which mankind has been ever since is an unnatural, less human state, which ends in the most unnatural aspect: death. Salvation, then, is a process not of justification or legal pardon, but of reestablishing man's communion with God. This process of repairing the unity of human and divine is sometimes called "deification." This term does not mean that humans become gods but that humans join fully with God's divine life.'

Andrew wrote: "Can anybody name one great happy novel in the world literature?"

Victorian writers! :)

Good point Andrew. I'm in another group and recently there was book survey and under "Afraid to read it" books most were listing Russian novels and one obvious reason is the thickness of books and the other reason is the sad endings. I'm just thinking about the early 20th century writings. The works of Virginia Woolf, James Joyce, Hemingway, non have happy endings. Influenced by their times.

I don't think literature was ever truly happy for more than brief periods of time. Victorian literature tends to be insular sometimes. But you look at French and German literature written in the same period you get Romanticism, Realism and Symbolism, neither of which was a particularly cheerful literary current.

Lolo wrote: On the other hand, isn't the thickness and deep writing one of the things we like about these books?

Yes

Lolo wrote: "The historical and religious aspects were a huge influence over every aspect of life in Eastern Europe and this includes literature. I live in Romania and literature is also depressing here too. We..."

Yes! Lolo, can you share some titles of Romanian Literature that you are fond of?

If times are depressing then I guess books and art in general will be depressing although there have always been comic writers, cartoons etc in such periods.

It is thought that many great artists have been bi-polar so their moods will swing from dark to light and back again, affecting their art. Studies have been done about mood disorders and their link to creativity:-

http://www.bipolarartists.com/

'Nancy C. Andreason, a psychiatrist at the University of Iowa, conducted a study that began in the 1970’s to discover the link between bipolar disorder and writers. For the next 15 years she collected data on a group of 30 writers; as of the time of publication of the article, 43% of the writers had been diagnosed with manic depression, as opposed to 10% of the control group. More unsettling still, two of the 30 writers in the sample group had committed suicide during the time of the study. A similar study found that 33% of artists and writers said that they experienced acute mood swings; this subgroup was made up mainly of poets and novelists.'

Both Tolstoy and Dosteovsky suffered from extreme depression, possibly manic-depression.

MadgeUK wrote: "If times are depressing then I guess books and art in general will be depressing although there have always been comic writers, cartoons etc in such periods.

It is thought that many great artists..."

Depressions. Disorders. That is all probably true, but we don't want to swerve to the ditch here: What about us, readers? Why do we like them? Look at all those lists of 'greatest' books of all times and nations. And try to minimise those lists mentally more and more with respect to their 'greatness'. What do we see? A tragedy is at the heart of all of them. Any exceptions? Yeah, yeah, those books may leave us hope in the end. Hope dies last, right? [Actually, I've found recently - there is something left when hope dies]. But note: all the novels that try to elaborate on that final hope fall flat. Yes, there are great fairy tales, fantacies, comedies, tragicomedies etc. But do they make it to the best of the best list that Humanity for thousands years now cherish most?
It seems the closer the book fits to the category of 'realism' the more tragic it is. Regardless of time and nation.
We may enjoy both comedy and tragedy [can I say 'enjoy tragedy'?], but why do we get sick of comedy much quicker? or why is it that tragedy is what really moves us?
To answer all this I think is beyond the scope of a literary discussion though. I think it has something to do with this peculiar state we find ourselves in, here on this Earth.
Would you disagree?

Lolo wrote: "To be honest I'm only fond of maybe 2-3 authors from my country but that is due to the very bad educational system (I won't get into details since this is not the place or moment to talk about it)a..."

Thank you so much!

Andrew wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "If times are depressing then I guess books and art in general will be depressing although there have always been comic writers, cartoons etc in such periods.

It is thought that ma..."

I think you are on to something, Andrew. I think there is something inherently universal in tragedy, while lots of other formats are quite time or location specific. "Gulliver's Travels" is funny, but only side-splittingly so if you understand the composition of the British Cabinet of the day. Some things that are funny in Germany aren't that funny either when translated or whenn read from the perspective of a Canadian.

Tragedy is universal. Pehaps that makes something written in Russia, in Russian, over a hundred years ago, still relevant to us today.

Andrew wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "If times are depressing then I guess books and art in general will be depressing although there have always been comic writers, cartoons etc in such periods.

It is thought that ma..."

I've heard what Madge is pointing out here. Thanks for sharing that information. I've also heard usually creativity rises during manic episodes, they say it must be the case specially with Vincent van Gough or even with writers like Hemingway or Plath. So perhaps the tension of their times increased their creativity too.

Having said that, I don't believe these people's greatness lies in the fact that they had these conditions.

As for your question Andrew, why is it that tragedy is what really moves us? to my way of thinking, books with unhappy endings are more popular because people learn more from tragedy/difficulties than from comedies. Like the famous saying "Happiness is an allegory, unhappiness a story".

Amalie wrote: I don't believe these people's greatness lies in the fact that they had these conditions.

Greatness is another matter entirely but there is now a great deal of evidence about the link between creativity and bi-polar mood disorders. Greatness can sometimes be a matter of the time in which artists lived, how much their art was appreciated and/or publicised.

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-10-07/he...

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives...

http://borntoexplore.org/addmood.htm

MadgeUK wrote: "Amalie wrote: I don't believe these people's greatness lies in the fact that they had these conditions.

Greatness is another matter entirely but there is now a great deal of evidence about the li..."

Thanks Madge, you do a lot of research and it makes the experience here a lot more interesting. A friend of mine committed suicide after suffering from depression for a long period and she wrote some amazing poems. I feel these conditions may look as blessing in disguise to us, but I'm thinking they might've felt quite the opposite.

Andrew wrote: "We may enjoy both comedy and tragedy [can I say 'enjoy tragedy'?], but why do we get sick of comedy much quicker? or why is it that tragedy is what really moves us?"

Because tragedy is what makes life interesting. If it's all fun we'd feel nothing, tragedy or sad events makes us remember that we are alive. The uniqueness of individuals arise with those situations. I'm not saying it, Tolstoy did:
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

Then may be it's because people seem to remember the negative more than the positive and therefore unhappy endings is something everyone can relate to.

Ivan Bunin's "The Village" is depressing, almost all characters die/suffer by the end.

I agree Shanwez - they may be interpreted as creative but the dpressive phase certianly isn't that way with bi-polar people.

At least our next group read isn't depressing - The Devils is full of humour and irony. Dosteovsky was bipolar too but this book was written at a happier, more successful time of his life.

With a title like Demons (Devils, etc), you'd think we wouldn't be laughing. I am only 20 pages into Demons, yet I have laughed out loud for most of the read :) I have marks all over the place in the text of favorite ideas, favorite phrases, and of hysterical scenes. If, I keep this up, every sentence will be underlined, and every page will be a mass of arrows and sidebars!

Yes my Kindle edition has lots of 'bookmarks' too Christi!

I'll not be reading "Demons". It's too bad that I'm busy these days with my boys and their school work and stuff. But I'll be reading the posts. It does sound great!