The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

X. No Explanation
XI. Confession
XII. Death is Over

Do you think that the black sack that Ivan is struggling with is hell/purgatory or his conscience? He finally breaks through and sees the light so I was also wondering if the light was heaven.

The black sack could have been Ivan's ignorance or his efforts to avoid facing reality.

To me Ivan's breakthrough was his total acceptance that his life had not been "right" or "correct" and his willingness to try to make things right in the end. Even though he could no longer communicate well, he begged forgiveness in the end and we are led to believe that Ivan's young son, at least, got the message.

I thought it was a beautiful story.

I thought the black sack represents Ivan's struggle to fight death because he wasn't ready to die without understanding why. Like Bea said, once he accepted that his life had not been right, he was willing to make amends and face the "bright light" that greets one upon dying.

For me the black sack was Ivan's struggle with death. It is a good illustration (for me) of the tenacity of the will to live. The bright light for me represented knowledge or truth. Ivan was coming to terms with what was truly important in life and how he basically missed the boat.

I like the connection his son made with him with his hand. Even then Ivan doesn't seem to know what to do with that connection.

Could the black sack be depression? Depression is often referred to as the black dog and this might be the Russian equivalent?

In spite of what could be seen as the rather depressing aspect of the end of the book, in considering the inevitability of his death, and his own desire to live, and his discovering of what was missing from his life, the awareness of the "wrongness" of it too late. I have to say that there was something about the ending which I found to be strangely beautiful. Maybe it is only my own macabrenes but the ending did not in fact make me feel depressed, or saddened. Maybe it was the way in which Ivan had finally gained illumination on life, even if it was at the very moment of his death.

I agree, Silver. I thought it was beautiful that all that mental and physical anguish was not for nothing -- that somehow grace intervened to allow Ivan the time to struggle for meaning in his life and death.

I wonder if anyone's views on Tolstoy's attitude toward Ivan was changed by the ending.

I liked how the ending brought us full circle. The story started with Ivan's death from the point of view of others. It ended with Ivan's death from his own point of view. The perspective shifted from the external to the internal.

Kim wrote: "I liked how the ending brought us full circle. The story started with Ivan's death from the point of view of others. It ended with Ivan's death from his own point of view. The perspective shifted f..."

That is an interesting poem it also brings up the question of how our own perspectives of Ivan may have been changed in moving from the outsider point of view, to being given the chance to see things from Ivan's point of view. At the beginning of the story there was a tremendous deal of criticism of Ivan a lot based upon us seeing him through the eyes of others, and how others reacted to his death. But I think by the end of the story Ivan started to develop into a more sympathetic character.

I agree, Silver. The reader's perspective changes as Ivan becomes better known. It also changes, I think, because we really start to understand what Ivan is going through. You can criticise Ivan's life. You can criticise Ivan's attitude towards his illness. But it's hard not to react with empathy when you're exposed to how Ivan feels about his death.

They were near contemporaries, he could have read it,

And they were both very likely to have read Hamlet's famous soliloquoy on death:-

http://www.artofeurope.com/shakespear...

I don't think the black sack is death so much as it is a manifestation of the stripping away of distractions.

It was not until Ivan Ilych felt that he was in that black sack that he was truly able to comes to terms with his own life and what was right, what was not-so-right-but-not-quite-wrong, and what was wrong with it. By removing each of the 'distractions': work, friends, family, etc. he is left alone with what he truly is.

It reminded me of stories that talk about solitary confinement in prisons or when people meditate in sensory deprivation tanks. By removing everything that can distract us, even light, we can truly look at ourselves and judge for ourselves the justness of our lives.

And then, once he has revealed to himself what his life was truly like, Ivan was able to leave the sack and re-enter the world. Unfortunately for him, it was too late to change his health or to truly connect with his family before he passed.

BunWat wrote: "I think the black sack is death, but its also all the falsity and corruption and selfishness of Ivan's life that he has to let go of in order to pass through.

When Ivan remembers back,

"Ther..."

I thought your post was very interesting, BunWat. I had not noted that the bright light is present at both the beginning and end of Ivan's life.

"There was one bright spot there at the beginning of life, and then it became ever darker and darker..."

"And the pain?" he asked himself, "What's become of it? Where are you pain?"

He became attentive.

"Yes, there it is. Well, then let there be pain.

"And death? Where is it?

He sought his old habitual fear of death and could not find it. Where was it? What death? There was no more fear because there was no more death.

Instead of death there was light."

How really beautiful.

BunWat wrote: "I think the black sack is death, but its also all the falsity and corruption and selfishness of Ivan's life that he has to let go of in order to pass through.

When Ivan remembers back,

"Ther..."

Wonderful post! I too found beauty and hope in the ending.

I feel BunWat is correct. I was sorry that he lost his way while living and he didn't realize it until it was too late to make any changes. It should be a lesson to all of us. I know it was to me.

I keep thinking: "So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom." (Psalm 90:12)

Poor Ivan, at least he did the "correct" thing and died properly! ;-)

BunWat wrote: "I do think Tolstoy is saying things with this story that are universal, about lives well or ill lived, about failures of presence, about the futility of living your life from the outside rather tha..."

BunWat, what a great post! Your thoughts also apply to todays society. We are still being taught what is not right through television and advertising. We are told to own the right thing and look the correct way.

Yes, it is a story about Everyman/Everywoman.

I wonder if Tolstoy had the humility to recognize that included himself.

BunWat wrote: "I do think Tolstoy is saying things with this story that are universal, about lives well or ill lived, about failures of presence, about the futility of living your life from the outside rather tha..."

Nice post. As Seeuuder said, it can be applied to modern life.

Are any of us truly free to be whatever we want to be. Society "punishes" those who don't conform, so it takes a brave person to go against the system. And few people rarely even question societal norms.

Seeuuder wrote, television and advertising tells us what is right and wrong. Constructs our identity and desires.