Discovering Russian Literature discussion

Please feel free to post any additional information about the author, the book, or any other resource material which you may think will further enhance our reading of the story.

But be cautious of spoilers.

Reading Schedule:

Part 1: Oct 1-10
Part 2: Oct 11-20
Part 3: Oct 21-31

*It may be helpful to know this book is known under three different names: Demons, The Devils, The Possessed.

Meet Timofey Granovsky - the prototype of Stepan Trofimovich in the novel.
ST is not his exact cast, there are differences; but look at the portrait of Granovsky! does it match the description of ST in the book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timofey_...

That is interesting

Here's the introduction to "Demons" from Everyman's Library. I've always found Everyman's library introduction very helpful in understanding the novel.

Since P/V translations is recommended to this, here's this to anyone who's interested,

Spoilers included*******

http://www.fyodordostoevsky.com/essay...

Amalie wrote: "Here's the introduction to "Demons" from Everyman's Library. I've always found Everyman's library introduction very helpful in understanding the novel.

Since P/V translations is recommended to thi..."

Thank you Amalie!

WHAT’S IN A NAME?
(for those who like words only)
DEMONS. Is it an accurate translation? Pretty accurate. And yet, what if we go a notch deeper? Let’s ask a Russian - not a regular Russian, say a Russian who fell from the Moon to us and know nothing about Dostoyevsky, Goodreads.. and anything like that – to translate the word ‘DEMONS’ back into Russian. With 95% likelihood the result will be ‘DEMONY’. Of course. Into both languages the word came from the Latin ‘daemonium’. But Dostoevsky didn’t call his novel ‘DEMONY’. The title in Russian is ‘BESY’, plural of ‘BES’. ‘BES’ and ‘DEMON’ are synonyms. But there is difference. I’d say, the closest synonym to DEMON would be ‘Fallen Angel’, the closest to BES – CHORT, the word you come across a lot if you like early Gogol. I personally don’t really know the difference between BES and CHORT. We need to ask a Slavic folklore specialist. I think the difference is mostly regional.
I also imagine BES like more aggressive and evil than CHORT (You still can negotiate with a CHORT; although, in the end, he’ll outcheat you anyway; but with a BES – no negotiation even possible!) That is.. just my personal idea.

If we ask this time any Russian to draw a picture of a BES (or CHORT), an upright creature with a tale, hoofs, horns, and a pig snout will come out. Most likely. (We might ask Amalie to draw a picture.) Yet their manifestation to us in real life can vary, they’re spirits after all, evil spirits.

On a personal note: I remember when I was growing up in my ghettohood, we had this leader of one of the gangs nicknamed - BES. Just this mere name of his made everybody tremble. Just listen to the word – it sound like a whip slash.
Don’t know the etymology of BES. Guess it has come to us from Old Slavic.
And Demons? Aren’t they more.. I don’t know.. intellectual? They’ve been up above for some time after all. And don’t they look like some gloomy creatures with black wings in the back? I want somebody to help me on them. Evil spirits, too.

And it’s not an accident that Dostoevsky placed an epigraph for his novel from New Testament. Exactly the word BESY is used for that episode in the Russian translations of the Bible.

And, just incidentally, there are plenty of colorful idioms and sayings in the Russian language with the words BES, CHORT, and many other their synonyms designating various evil spirits.
For after all:
OUR NAME IS MANY!

Andrew wrote: "WHAT’S IN A NAME?
(for those who like words only)
DEMONS. Is it an accurate translation? Pretty accurate. And yet, what if we go a notch deeper? Let’s ask a Russian - not a regular Russian, say a R..."

Very interesting Prince Andrew...er...I mean Andrew. Are you saying you too are one of them?!

Also, from your reading so far, which do you think fits best "Bes or Chort"? I think the way we are shown certain people who may indeed be 'demons', is constantly evolving. It is a tricky identity these evil spirits have.

Oh boy – I hope I’m not!

My pathological love for playing with words may make me follow the fate of the Purple Knight (Korovyev) of ‘Master and Margarita’ some day :)

The first and the last lines in my previous message are merely quotes from the Bible.
(Just ornamentation on the subject :)

And actually, Christi, you reminded me about one thing I didn’t mention last time when I was comparing words DEMON and BES. The word DEMON somehow implies this vague romantic flavor in it. Nothing like that in the word BES! Looking into this creature’s soul evokes only sheer horror and aversion. Although mere appearance of a bes can be even a beauty. ‘A strong and beautiful animal’. Remember Chekhov’s Aksinya?
She IS a bes.. beast.. ? (incidentally, I wouldn’t be surprised if both words have same ancient Indo-European root) Nothing ‘noblish’ or romantic in a BES abides.

I have not read much into the book yet, but judging from what I know about what the novel is based on, I anticipate seeing eventually worms in the souls of those Demons (or, originally, besy) of the book.

Anyhow, I just wanted us to remember that Dostoyevsky named his novel BESY, and not DEMONY.

And allow me this last thing: Before Dostoyevsky’s BESY, there had been already a literary work in the 19th century Russia with this title - BESY; and that was Aleksandr Pushkin’s poem, the abstract of which is the first epigraph for the novel. If you read it, it might also help get the idea what the word BES means (along with the second, biblical epigraph). And, quite naturally, in the poem, the word is also translated into English as Demon. That is, in P-V translation. I wonder if there are others…

Thanks for these explanations Andrew.

The quotation from Pushkin is of two men lost on a winter road being lured away by devilish goblins and witches. The second epigraph tells the biblical story of the Gadarene swine where a man possessed by devils has them transferred to a herd of swine which fall to their death in a lake. Similarly, the devilish young nihilists in the novel are (in the author's eyes) possessed by devils, devils which threaten modern society.

In the KJV Old Testament the word 'devils' refers to the pagan gods but in the New Testament Satan has a personal army of demons to assist him in attacking humans and accomplishing evil tasks. The Bible refers to fallen angels as demons who joined Satan in a heavenly revolt. They roam the world looking for people that they may destroy. The Gospels and the book of Acts describe many exorcisms where Jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession. Supposedly, those who truly believe in God cannot be possessed by demons so we can assume that the nihilists do not truly believe in God.

The Book of Matthew, in particular, refers a number of times to people being 'possessed by devils' and this may be the origin of Dosteovsky's title.

I just stumbled upon this website and thought it could be useful and helpful.

http://s00.middlebury.edu/RU351A/nove...

Thanks, Silver!

Andrew wrote: "Oh boy – I hope I’m not!

My pathological love for playing with words may make me follow the fate of the Purple Knight (Korovyev) of ‘Master and Margarita’ some day :)

The first and the last lin..."

I just thought Aksinya was a nasty person; it never occured to me that she was a Bes, or some evil spirit. Interesting.

Thanks Silver, some good links there (thought a couple don't work).

It might be worth reading Turgenev's Virgin Soil after reading Devils, in which Turgenev and his ideas are cruelly satirised in the character Karmanizov. Of the two men, I think Turgenev comes across as the more attractive character. He also has a better writing style IMO. Hemingway said of Dosteovsky: 'how could [he] write…so unbelievably badly, and make you feel so deeply' but he thought Turgenev 'the greatest writer there ever was'.

http://karlomongaya.wordpress.com/200...

Another interesting bit of info, Madge! Thank you. I will add Virgin Soil to my to-read list. I have only read Fathers and Sons by Turgenev, but I much prefer Dostoyevsky to Turgenev. I, unlike Hemingway, love the way Dostoyevsky tells a story. And I do not like the way Hemingway tells one :) Of course, I rely on translations of both Dostoyevsky and Turgenev, maybe in the original language, I would feel differently?

I'm not a Henmingway fan either Christi but I agree with him about Dosteovsky's style. His stories are good but they are often too convoluted. Turgenev is simpler, more modern in style.

Oh, with that I too agree: Turgenev is much simpler to read! I think maybe I like Dostoyevsky's "convoluted style," because it is sometimes like a puzzle I have to work out. I really enjoy that process :)

Christi wrote: "I just thought Aksinya was a nasty person; it never occured to me that she was a Bes, or some evil spirit. Interesting. "

I meant figuratively Christi. Sorry for my blabbing! :)
I don't think Chekhov ever implied any 'real' evil spirits in his stories. At the same time, some of his characters are not just bad persons, they're lacking essential human qualities, like Aksinya, for instance, that one may 'think':"Oh, she's not human , she's a beast!" ( bes, monster, whatever.. )
Right before In the Ravine, I read his Duel. There too is such a personage.

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks for these explanations Andrew.

The Book of Matthew, in particular, refers a number of times to people being 'possessed by devils' and this may be the origin of Dosteovsky's title...."

I've read that novel accurately applies New Testament texts from Luke's gospel and the book of Revelation relating to the demonic.

Demons opens with Luke 8: 32 - 36, which serves as the epigraph for the entire novel. This passage from Luke's gospel is an excerpt from the healing of the Gerasene demoniac that is narrated in Luke 8: 26 - 399. Before he began writing the novel, Dostoevsky confided to a friend how he saw the application of this portion of Luke's gospel to Russian conditions:

"This [i.e., the description in Luke 8:32-36] is exactly the way it has gone with us...The evil spirits have come out of the Russians and have entered into a herd of swine - Nechayev and his peers in other words. They have either already drowned or will do so in the future, but he who is cured, he whom the evil spirits have left, sits at the feet of Jesus. Indeed that is how it had to be. Russia has vomited up the swinishness with which it has been fed, and in these vomited-up scoundrels there is of course nothing that is Russian left. And mark this, dear friend: he who loses his people and his nationality loses also the faith of his fathers and his God. That is also the theme of my novel. It is called Evil Spirits, and is a description of how these evil spirits have entered into a herd of swine."


I also read at another place that Dostoevsky's novel is based on his personal experiences associated with an actual political conspiracy murder of a student named Ivan Ivanov a member of the Nihilist Movement, a friend of Dostoevsky's family member.

Ivanov was murdered by his Nihilist associates because he objected to their leader, Sergey Nyechayev's dictatorial methods and fraudulent techniques. Nyechayev respond to Ivanov's objections by instigating a group murder of Ivanov.

Dostoevsky's novel re-casts Ivanov's murder as the plot for Demons.

About Sergey Nechayev:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_N...

Thanks for the quote about Luke Amalie, I had not seen that quote although I did mention the Gadarene swine (Luke 8 26:29) in my post 9 above.

There is reference to the connection of the murder of Ivanov in Silver's link at post 10.

Andrew wrote: "Christi wrote: "I just thought Aksinya was a nasty person; it never occured to me that she was a Bes, or some evil spirit. Interesting. "

I meant figuratively Christi. Sorry for my blabbing! :)
I ..."

Oh, ok, I understand. You are not just blabbing, your thoughts are very perceptive and thought-provoking.

Thanks to all who posted links regarding Dostoyevsky and his books. The supplemental reading is enjoyable.

I'm not currently reading this but I found this great review on youtube. Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMpnOX...