The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is the Week Seventeen thread for the next Presidential Series selection (My Life).

For those of you still acquiring the book, be advised that some folks have run into the problem of the book being now divided into two volumes. We will be reading and discussing the entire work so you will need to get both volumes (Volume I and Volume II). For those of you like myself who have the original hardcopy, that will not be necessary because the hardcopy was just one big book.

The week's reading assignment is:

Week Seventeen - Ocotber 3rd - October 9th -> Chapters FORTY-SEVEN, and FORTY-EIGHT p. 735 - 799


We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 13th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be your moderator for this selection as he is our lead for all Presidential selections. We hope you enjoy Week Seventeen of this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Bill Clinton

Chapter 47 opens with staff and cabinet changes. He gave his inaugural and state of the Union addresses. Gingrich was fined for giving false testimony about using tax-exempt funds. Clinton was accused of selling overnight stays at the White House. At Greg Norman's house, Clinton tore his right quadriceps needing surgery and 6 months of rehab. Congress and Clinton reached a budget agreement that included a small tax cut. Clinton spoke at Chelsea's graduation from Sidwell and escorted her to Stanford. The Supreme Court ruled that Paula Jones can move forward with her sexual harassment suit against Clinton, and Clinton refused to settle the case. Clinton also banned human cloning. In foreign affairs, there was a new UN secretary-general, Kofi-Anna; a Hebron deal was put together by Arafat and Netanyahu; Lake withdrawals from his nomination as CIA director as Clinton struggled to find a director. He got George Tenet to do it. Yeltsin and Clinton met in Helsinki to talk about NATO expansion. Clinton got Yelstin to support expansion if he got Russia into the G-7 and World Trade Organization. Clinton went on a trip to Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean to bring more trade to those countries. He also traveled to Europe to sign the NATO-Russia pact, then in London, met Tony Blair for the first time. There was a G-7 meeting and they voted Russia in. The IRA restored the cease-fire. The U.S. did not sign the treaty banning land-mines. Clinton went on a trip to South America visiting Venezuela, Brazil, and Argentina. The Kyoto talks on global warming met in December and Clinton hoped Congress would pass tax incentives (vs. government regulation) to promote conservation and clean energy.

In chapter 48, Indonesia's economy collapsed starting the Asian economic crisis. Saddam denied UN weapon inspectors, but he backed down with the threat of air strikes. In March, Clinton met with the politicians on the Northern Ireland peace talks. By April, with the help of last minute negotiations by Clinton, the Good Friday Accords for peace in Norther Ireland came together. He went to Africa, then later to Chile. The Clintons visited China advocating human rights and freedom in public and hoped to get China into the World Trade Organization. In August, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were hit. Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were said to commit these attacks. The U.S. had been tracking bin Laden for years and he lived in Sudan. He left Sudan for Afghanistan living among the Taliban regime. Clinton debated conducting a missile attack on bin Laden and other high level al-Qaeda members, but had to deal with the fact that the missiles would fly over Pakistani airspace. In domestic matters, Clinton pushed for a patient Bill of Rights. He gave a deposition over the Jones case with lawyers who, he felt, were building a case for infidelity. (The case was later dismissed.) Monica Lewinsky's name was brought up. The Washington Post broke the story on January 21, 1998. He admitted to the reader he felt foolish and ashamed that he did have encounters with Lewinsky. Lewinsky and Linda Tripp were recorded having a conversation and the FBI talked with Lewinsky about wearing a wire. Starr gave Lewinsky immunity if she talked. Starr also tried to get Susan McDougal to talk about Whitewater, but he failed. The State of the Union was tense, but the good news was that the U.S. had a budget surplus. Clinton focused on preparing the government and the country from a biological attack. He also signed presidential directive 62 for counter-terrorism initiative.

Clinton's 1997 Inaugural:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/ind...

Clinton's 1997 State of the Union:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/ind...

One thing that strikes me is that No Child Left Behind wasn't out of nowhere. Clinton also pushed for more standardized testing. Clearly the federal level was moving in that direction, probably states/cities were doing more of it.

Maybe but I think in Arkansas's case; they were really playing catch up in so many areas that testing even for the teachers was a way to pull themselves out of the hole. The other seemed to be a little bit over the top.

Yeah, Arkansas started pretty low. I know Texas was working with standardized testing for students in the 1990s, especially with Gov. Bush. I'm sure there were others.

I think possibly South Carolina was another but I am not positive.

We are also seeing a "expansion" trend, in that we see Clinton supporting expanding world trade and NATO to Eastern Europe.

A few links to events Clinton mentions:

Mother Teresa:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/da...

Princess Diana's death:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of...

Sinn Finn enters talks:
http://articles.cnn.com/1997-07-21/wo...

Another big event is Kyoto, global climate change:

http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/item...

Do you think Clinton's position of market incentives vs. government regulation was the right way to go?

At the time, it was the right decision; now I am not so sure.

Yeah, I think if you have to get business on your side, the market incentives is probably the right move.

Now you throw in a belief system, a leader might not even believe in global warming, well, this creates a whole new round of challenges.

Yes, it does. I think some things may have to be mandated before it is too late. Hopefully there is still some time to reverse some of this. Or at the very least not get far worse.

Jones v. Clinton:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_...

Breyer and Stephens argued that the suit would not occupy much of Clinton's time. Boy, was this wrong, since this suit lead to Lewinsky...

In this section, Clinton admits he had a couple encounters with Lewinsky. It is not the first president to have an fling or an affair while in office.

However, I think it is the first time we get to read about it from a president. He could have said nothing about it, but he says he was foolish and ashamed.

What does this affair say about Clinton, taking in what we know about him since his childhood?

Knowing what we do about his childhood; I think the roots of the Lewinsky situation started then. I think he always had some feelings of inadequacy which started in his youth; and forming and seeing proper relationships is a part of a normal development. I don't think he saw that with his grandparents or with his own parents or step-parents. He was quite religious in comparison to his relations; so even at a young age he was searching for something.

Bentley wrote: "Knowing what we do about his childhood; I think the roots of the Lewinsky situation started then. I think he always had some feelings of inadequacy which started in his youth; and forming and see..."

Yes, what is nice is that we (and Clinton) can reflect on his whole upbringing with this book.

I do think it shows he is human, and as you say, it stems from growing up. He didn't have anyone to talk to about emotional development as a kid/teen. I suspect being alone made him susceptible to doing things he would not do.

More than likely and then the shame sets in.

...some alcoholics drink alone because of the shame...

I don't think that drinking was Clinton's problem but then again doing things that are knowingly not right for your well being and risking everything is part of a deep-seated issue.

Bentley wrote: "I don't think that drinking was Clinton's problem but then again doing things that are knowingly not right for your well being and risking everything is part of a deep-seated issue."

Exactly, I was commenting on being alone and doing things that would be bad for you.

Yes, understood.

1998 Embassy bombings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Uni...

In the last few chapters, Clinton has been focusing a lot on his terrorism and counter-terrorism policies.

Do you think he is doing this to make his case against charges that he didn't do enough to stop al-Qaeda leading up to 9/11?

Simran wrote: "It could just be sexual attraction to another person.

People have affairs & there's nothing pathological about it except the preoccupation of Starr et al with the whole thing."

True, Simran, true. Clinton doesn't really discuss any previous affair if he had one. I am interested on how one can fantasize about another woman, have that attraction, and act on it. For Clinton, the action really made him feel ashamed.

I think he has problems with an integrated personality; he mentions just that allusion earlier on when discussing himself, etc. Therefore, if that is the case; he could split off the segment of himself that brings that other self shame; almost like the two co-exist in one man without his having absolute control over the other less desirable and risky self.

Years of therapy might help but who knows what he has sought in private. Still a great president even though he is struggling I think with the dark self he describes.

Simran wrote: "Bryan, in your opinion, did he do enough and if he didn't then what do you think he should have done ?"

Ah, the million dollary question. Well, we know that Clinton was very concerned about Bin Laden. He tried to institute new reforms to react to al-Qaeda's new techniques. But it was not enough since the system and the CIA were broken.

It just goes to show you how difficult and complicated it really is.

Very complex and very complicated and filled with intrigue.

According to the following book we read in the group:

Tim Weiner

The intelligence was faulty and the CIA didn't have enough reliable agents to gather information. They also had high turn-over because morale was low. The CIA also built a reputation over decades, but it was over-inflated.

Simran wrote: "It sounds like a very interesting read, I'm sold."

It is a very interesting book. I'd recommend it:

Tim Weiner

It is a good one. I think he took the theme of 2000 and ran with it.

Interestingly enough a lot of what he says legislatively has come true: the Internet, welfare reform, move toward standard testing/school choice, and balanced budget.

By the way Simran, the group had a discussion on Legacy of Ashes and those threads can still be accessed if you get a copy of the book and want to read it. It was quite revealing and the discussion that ensued was a great one.

You can find the discussion threads for that book now housed under the American Government Folder (it was at one time a spotlighted book):

http://www.goodreads.com/group/show_b...

Tim Weiner

Bryan made a great suggestion.

You are welcome. Because we have a limited number of folders (only 100) - we have to house the threads of many of these books (which we have finished discussing) in other topical areas.

Yes, it is.

Thanks Bentley for helping Simran. There are plenty of good material on our threads.

Bentley wrote: "At the time, it was the right decision; now I am not so sure."

So a thought on enviromental regulation - the market incentives will rise by themselves or form themselves and I do believe the job of government is to protect our health and welfare. Just as the oil industry managed to build market incentives into the system after it had been started.

We have government regualtion of car speed, innoculations for children going to school, possible quarintine in epidemics (TB is a current problem here) but I think that the regulation should have come with subsidies to aid in compliance. I am a real capitalist (20th/21st century) but I think that we have to regulate - would we expect untested drugs to be marketed???????????????????????

Just a comment - I agree with the aproach that Clinton took and, as Bentely said he thought it was good at the time but it didn't work alone.

Boy these chapters were powerful and interesting - I will make some comments beyond the above

pg 739 - and other places - talking of Henry Cisnerso legal bills. - Boy how many of Clinton's folks afterward had real life changing legal expenses (and probably sleepless nights and maybe ulcers) as a result of the criminal charges pursued by the Republicans. - Also to mention Susan McDougal's incarceration - the political and personal and financial cost to these folks seemed to have been severe and I guess that was so unfair. A few, maybe more like Bill Clinton with this book

Bill Clinton

and maybe McDougal (depending upon sales etc.)

Susan McDougal

got even financially - but most I am sure not - not to mention the agita.

Also the fine to Gingrich - pg 742
- boy do we think that someone who did something that could result in a $300,000 fine might not be appropriate to govern us. Lots of zeros there.

I also note that Clinton Pg 744 - quotes the old testament - (Kings James version if you are curious) - but it strikes me that he would be so familiar with the old testament to know it to use it. (do we know if he had regular help writing this - I get the impression it flows to some extent from his strong memory)

Page 749 - I was disappointed to learn that the star Bill Clinton has put George Tenet into the directorship of the CIA - Simran if you read

Tim Weiner

as I did with the club you will learn more about that bad adventure when it came to George W's going to war in Iraq.

Clinton's description of what (pg 761) people hire a President to do reminded me of what a lawyer friend of mine said a lawyer is paid to do. "Read, Worry and Fight" for the client. A personal remark but this lawyer is a person of really high integrity I think.

Pg 771 brings up what is totally missing in Obama's health plan especially in this economy - the 55 year old buy in for Medicare - If you are in your 60's and need to buy independently health insurance for yourself and spouse you are talking about over $10,000 per year. Think how many less young folks out of work now will have reduced funds for the rest of their lives as they use retirement money to buy health insurance at market prices.

On page 781 I had my mind opened on the Ugandan anti - homosexual legislation when Clinton mentions it had the highest rate of AIDS in Africa - I goggled Uganda and got (Wikipedia for validity sake mentioned) that 84% of the country is Christian and about 49% Catholic and life expectancy is 49 for men and 50 for women - so maybe this explains, not justifies or validates, why this legislation can be supported there.

Regarding the terrorism and the valid remarks that preceded mine I first would note that this book is copyright 2004 so Clinton had hindsight that it was critical to include it - but I do think that he did and that he did a decent job - but 9/11 came barely eight months after George W took office and many of the perpetrators had established themselves in the US during the Clinton years - how he would have coped or avoided the 9/11 attacks we will never know.

Sorry to have subjected everyone to this and I hope it is of interest.

Comments will be welcomed.

Great comments Vince and I love what your lawyer friend said: Read, Worry and Fight - that about sums it up.

Who knows if Clinton could have done more about Bin Laden - so many folks have tried and failed and it has only been the current president who was successful and even for that folks are not giving him any boost in the current polling. I really do think that jobs are on people's minds more than terrorists but the latter can kill you.

Your comments about health insurance are very well taken. So true; why does a country like the United States make its citizens go bankrupt in order to protect themselves or their loved ones.

Vince wrote: "Bentley wrote: "At the time, it was the right decision; now I am not so sure."

So a thought on enviromental regulation - the market incentives will rise by themselves or form themselves and I do b..."

Thanks, Vince. Yeah, I think his approach was truly more middle of the road. Boy, people still remember Nixon's price controls and the deregulation of the trucking and airlines in the 1970s. (Although, you wonder about the airlines...maybe we would still have a meal on planes today...lol).

Vince wrote: "Boy these chapters were powerful and interesting - I will make some comments beyond the above

pg 739 - and other places - talking of Henry Cisnerso legal bills. - Boy how many of Clinton's folks ..."

Yes, thanks Vince. No need to apologize, they are good comments.

I don't remember Clinton having a ghost writer on this book. It is possible, but the style isn't disjointed, so if there was, they did a great job integrating. I'm sure he had a lot of research help, though.

It is sad to report that it seems to be a requirement to have high legal expenses at the top level of power these days.

There seems to be always someone trying to knock you off of the pinnacle so that they can assume that position.

Indeed, Bentley, and reporters are also so hungry to find something on someone...

Yes, it is a catch 22.