C. S. Lewis discussion
Lewis' Beliefs on "Grey Matters"
date
newest »
newest »
Hello! I have loved C.S. Lewis since I was a child, but as I got older I noticed the same thing, particularly about Purgatory and such and didn't know what to think. I grew up Anglican and still consider that my denomination, but I didn't know much about Catholicism and, like many Protestants, I was a bit wary of it because of parts of I didn't understand ("you guys pray to Mary!?"). In college I started dating a Catholic and learned a lot more about it, and discovered its not really that different from any other kind of Christianity (good news! They don't worship Mary!). In fact, the more I learned about it, the more I felt sad that there is so much division between Protestants and Catholics, and so much division in the Church in general. But then I realized something (else) awesome about Lewis. It's hard to find a Protestant that doesn't like Lewis. They exist, but most Christians enjoy and are inspired by his works. I have yet to meet a Catholic who didn't like Lewis. It's kind of amazing. Protestants trust him because he was Protestant, but Catholics see him as "Catholic enough" to be taken seriously by Catholics ( including Catholic priests!) I think Lewis did, and is still doing, something incredible in showing us that we are all "merely Christian" at our core. Please don't misunderstand. I'm not totally naive, I know the history of division in the Church is long and complex and can't be healed overnight. And I am still Protestant, and I'm not claiming that "it's all the same" because it's not. But we are One Church, under one God, even though we may not agree on everything. We may not agree with Lewis about everything, but I think he shows us how similar we are, after all.
I like what you say Robyn! I come from a nominal Catholic background (I was nominal, my parents were believers). Since beginning my walk with God, my affiliation has been primarily with non-denominational churches. I have brothers who are very active believers in their Catholic Churches and Lewis is someone we each admire. I think you are correct, the unity is found in the "Mere" of Christianity.
Hi folks, I grew up Anglican, wandered over to Methodist for a while, and have been LDS for the last 30 years. Clive is mentioned in LDS talks all the time. It's my understanding that he went through at least two "converions" during his life, and even studied "Mormonism" at one point. C. S. Lewis has had a big impact on Christan thought, and I've been reading his books since the early 60's...
Well said, Robyn!!Robyn wrote: "Hello! I have loved C.S. Lewis since I was a child, but as I got older I noticed the same thing, particularly about Purgatory and such and didn't know what to think. I grew up Anglican and still co..."
This an awesome discussion! It's so rare to see people online talking charitably about religion. As a Catholic, I love when I hear people wanting to know more about Catholic beliefs. I need to brush up on apologetics myself as well... If anyone has a specific question, I'd love to try to answer it!The "gray matters" are tricky, but it's amazing how much biblical evidence there really is for them. For instance, the praying to Mary issue: no, it is not worshipping, but honoring. We honor her because she was the Mother of God. I mean, that's a pretty honorable position! Jesus Himself honored her, of course, and we are told to imitate Christ, so why wouldn't we honor her? Also, when we pray to her, we are simply asking her, as a fellow Christian who is already in heaven, right up close to Jesus, to pray for us. It's surprisingly simple, but it can so easily be seen as idolatry or something else sinister. Most "gray matters" are the same way. Again, I love seeing people ask questions for themselves and honestly wanting to know what real Catholics believe. There is hope! :)
Rachel, thanks for joining the discussion!I agree, it is awesome to have a substantial conversation online that is respectful and thought provoking.
We all, Catholics and Protestants, love and honor C.S. Lewis--and we all like to claim him! From Heaven's point of view, our divisions are probably sometimes sad, but often pretty funny.
C.S Lewis is one of the best minds who understand Christianity with pure sprite
I don't remember Lewis talking about Purgatory. It seems to make such sense, to purify us for Heaven, but Jesus said, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." And in Mere Christianity, when Lewis describes our coming face to face with God, it's instantaneous. My favorite image of our entry into Heaven is the one in The Last Battle, where Lucy and the others run straight toward Aslan in love, and right through the doorway into New Life.
Connie wrote: "I don't remember Lewis talking about Purgatory. It seems to make such sense, to purify us for Heaven, but Jesus said, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." And in Mere Christianity, when Lewi..."Hi, Connie: Well, let me put in my two cents: I don't recall anything off hand, but I do believe that George MacDonald believed in something akin to purgatory -- reflected in some of his poetry and fiction, but especially in one or more of his sermons where talks about people 'in their sleep' of death growing toward heaven. And, C.S. Lewis, when asked (at least once) what he believed, said, 'it's all in the Unspoken Sermons of George MacDonald.' Great question.
Connie wrote: "I don't remember Lewis talking about Purgatory. It seems to make such sense, to purify us for Heaven, but Jesus said, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." And in Mere Christianity, when Lewi..."Connie, I just want to throw some thoughts out there about purgatory. Jesus did say"Today you will be with me in paradise" to the thief because He could tell that the thief had made a complete conversion. He wouldn't need purgatory. Most of us are still hanging on to some little imperfections when we die, and since we know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, we have to be purified. I realize that not everyone believes that Maccabees is part of the Bible, but in 2 Maccabees 12: 38- 46, there is an incident of OT Jews praying for the dead, showing that they believed that was a good idea. (This is at least historical evidence of what they believed, if not scripture.) Since people in Heaven don't need prayer since they are perfected and perfectly happy already (and people in hell have made their choice and can't be helped by prayer) there must be a kind of intermediate stage for the majority of people who die mostly good, but imperfect. The people in this stage (according to the OT Jews and the Catholic Church) can be helped by prayer as they go through the pain of purification. I hope I'm explaining this right... Don't trust me completely, but I hope this helps a little!
I unfortunately haven't read all of C. S. Lewis's works yet, so I'm not sure what his thoughts on purgatory were... I'm reading it all slowly but surely!
I do love The Last Battle's portrayal of Heaven. But come to think of it, I've always thought of Narnia as the kids' purgatory, because it was teaching them to love Aslan (Jesus) better, and giving them courage and other virtues by challenging them, and Aslan's country was where they went after they finished their task in Narnia. Notice, they died in our world and then had to go through the battle and all (suffering) and then to Aslan's country (heaven). Not sure if Lewis intended that, but that's how I saw it!
As I understand it, Lewis was (and remained) a member of the Church of Ireland, which is part of the Anglican Communion. And Article 22 the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England (an official declaration of Anglican belief) specifically states that "the Romish doctrine of Purgatory is a ... futile thing...not grounded in the Word of God." [Please note: I am quoting here - the offensive language does NOT represent my own view!]But Lewis certainly believes in the value of petitionary prayer, which does not make sense, unless you believe in Purgatory in some sense i.e. that it is possible for a soul not currently in heaven to subsequently reach there. And he was a very rational man, who would surely have seen this implication.
I think that the doctrinal statement that I have quoted forced him to be ambiguous on these issues. But my impression is that Lewis' ideas are in harmony with current Anglican teaching.
This notes that the Greek usually translated as "eternal" can simply mean a very long time. It therefore does not see Hell as being necessarily permanent. This fits with the understanding of the pain of Hell being the separation of the soul from God, rather than an externally inflicted torment. It is only as the soul is purified that it becomes capable of Heaven.
So yes, Anglicanism teaches that there are only two possible destinations after death, not three. But in practical terms, it seems that it is the traditional understanding of Hell, rather than Purgatory that has been rejected.
Hey, just to keep this great discussion going... We have a new pope!!! I think the papacy is a really interesting discussion topic for this group, since it is the main thing that originally separated Anglicans from Catholics. Thoughts on the papacy, anyone?
I'm excited by Pope Francis' deep concern for the poor.
Pope Francis appears to be a humble and sincere man.I find the papacy quite exciting; for 2,000 years there has been an unbroken line of succession from the first pope, Peter. Yes there difficult times in the history of the Papacy, and not every pope was even a decent human being, but the legacy remains.
I think we're permitted to be 'agnostic' (don't yet know) or somewhat speculative about some of these things like postmortem evangelization etc., as long as we are clear about when are speculating and when we are not.
The Legend of Peter BorkaFor a satirical perspective on religion, consider reading my new book, "The Legend of Peter Borka," available from CreateSpace.com and Amazon.com.
I really found this very interesting opening discussion about religion, being a reader of Lewis and practitioner of the Catholic religion, I argue that many of his writings are similar the ideas of the Catholic religion, including, I easily before meeting his biography, believed that he was a Catholic Christian. I also have this ideal of brotherhood between religions, I believe that at some point the differences between religions and people will not do any importance. and I wonder why not take ecumenism a true friendship?In relation to purgatory, I believe basically is a state, without time or space, I believe that with God there is no time, this in which we are conditioned.
On the new Pope: he, in such a short time made simple attitudes that show a bit of concrete hope of Jesus' teachings. I believe that many positive changes will come, a revival which has long been need.
*Very good discussion ^^
Lilian wrote: "I really found this very interesting opening discussion about religion, being a reader of Lewis and practitioner of the Catholic religion, I argue that many of his writings are similar the ideas o..."Remember that Lewis was brought back to the Christian faith, after teenage atheism, by the influence of his friend J.R.R. Tolkien, who WAS Catholic.
I think it was the Papacy that Lewis struggled with, in regards Catholicism. The whole idea that the Church realigns itself every time the pope's ideas change (I would be greatly interested in hearing his opinion of a Jesuit pope, especially if he was aware of the unsung war between the Papacy and Jesuits in the last few decades... A war that, apparently, the Jesuits won).He thought the the Church must remain grounded in a less pliable standard. I cannot remember where I read this, but it was in Lewis' writings where he expounded this grief in Catholicism.
Tolkien was greatly distressed by Lewis' rejection of Catholicism, if the commentators are to be believed. Tolkien was instrumental in bringing Lewis back to Christ. But like most Catholics, Tolkien's mission was also to bring him, not only to Christ, but to the Church. In that, he failed. With all that is said in evangelical circles about the Roman Catholic Church, my indictment personally lies in the fact that they seemingly cannot distinguish between following Christ and following the Church. I suppose the reason evangelicals do not lay this indictment at the doorstep of Catholicism is because evangelicals are becoming increasingly guilty of it themselves. It is almost impossible to find a Church where one's Christianity is not compartmentalized into that Church. By Church, I mean the visible institutionalized church we have today, not the universal body of believers, transcending dimension, space, and time. End the institution, burn every church house on Earth, and the Church herself remains unscathed, and her wedding garment remains white.
Lewis chose his own path, and he found he struggled with even that. I personally do not believe Lewis ever enjoyed attending Church. But he did it, as a matter of service and obedience. It was his way of "flying his flag", as he put it.
I have many Catholic friends. The odd thing I find is that many are bold enough to claim Lewis was a closet-Catholic. However, a month down the road, I see them treading backwater when issues like same-sex marriage come to the forefront. They outright reject Lewis's idea, expounded in Mere Christianity, that Christian marriage ought to separate from State marriage, with sharp distinctions between the two.
Of course, Catholicism has never had any issue with amalgamating religion with government. Evangelicals allow their Christian morals to bleed into government sometimes, but they would otherwise reject a complete amalgamation of the two. Lewis was undecided upon how much Christian morality should integrate into government, per Mere Christianity. But I do think, since he did prescribe an idea of the Churches having their own marriages outside the sanction of the State, that he would have resisted the idea of a complete amalgamation of the two into one.
This is generally much to the chagrin of Catholics, who think the State and Church (their Church, of course) should integrate as much as society can endure, if not entirely amalgamated.
I know Lewis believed in Purgatory, as well as prayer to the dead. Prayer, in the sense of mere communication into the metaphysical realm, not as an act of worship, of course. Evangelicals are seemingly unable to make this distinction, therefore all prayer to the dead is idolatry in their estimation. If he believed in the actual "adoration of the saints" is something I cannot recall his ever commenting on.
The great thing about Lewis is, his writings transcends religious tradition and gropes at the heart of most matters. Bonhoeffer is also able to do this in his excellent Cost of Discipleship. It isn't too hard to separate the wheat and tares in these books, regardless of your tradition and denomination.
Just my $0.02.
Alexandra wrote: "Lilian wrote: "I really found this very interesting opening discussion about religion, being a reader of Lewis and practitioner of the Catholic religion, I argue that many of his writings are simil..."Yes, but, I mean my first impression when reading his biography,the early writings that I read.- I could not observe differences in aspect Anglican and Catholic. Lewis really did a wonderful path of discovery, left, watched other reality and made her inner process of conversion, or something.
It's really fascinating life and all that left.
Just to be clear, I think doctrines regarding Purgatory are in the Apocrypha, which is included in Roman Catholic Bible, but not included in most Evangelical Bibles. Catholics typically cite the Catechism also, but the roots of it lies in tangent with prayers for the dead, as practiced by Jews..."Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." (2 Macc 12:46)
Wm. Scott wrote: "I think it was the Papacy that Lewis struggled with, in regards Catholicism. The whole idea that the Church realigns itself every time the pope's ideas change (I would be greatly interested in hear..."I think perhaps you have some mistaken notions about the Papacy & the Catholic Church. I would recommend reading some Catholic apolotetics to find the truth of it, to avoid making statements that are merely your perceptions of the Catholic Church.
I didn't say that... Lewis did in a letter...The real reason why I cannot be in communion with you [Catholics] is not my disagreement with this or that Roman doctrine, but that to accept your Church means, not to accept a given body of doctrine, but to accept in advance any doctrine your Church hereafter produces. It is like being asked to agree not only to what a man has said but also to what he is going to say.” ~~~ C. S. Lewis
... I was only citing it.
Wm. Scott wrote: "I didn't say that... Lewis did in a letter...The real reason why I cannot be in communion with you [Catholics] is not my disagreement with this or that Roman doctrine, but that to accept your Chu..."
Everything in your missive was a quotation from Lewis? Including:"The whole idea that the Pope realigns....", & "My indictment lies...", & "Of course, Catholicism never had any issue...", & "This is generally much to the chagrin of Catholics....".
These are the statements I was referring to, & if Lewis did indeed say all of that as well in a letter, then I stand corrected.
Cody
on a side note... Please stay respectful. I know how some online forums can get, especially regarding religion! Just a friendly discussion!