Brain Pain discussion

Hello and Bonjour to all!

My name is Jim and I'll be the moderator for this group.

I studied English and American Literature at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ. I'm currently living in France, but spent the first 24 years of my life in New York, and then 26 years in San Francisco. I enjoy reading and writing, and have also been a visual artist since childhood.

I've sniffed around the edges of many of the books we'll be reading in this group, but have never given them my full attention. I decided the time has come to slay these dragons, so I created this group for reading the challenging books of fiction.

Looking forward to meeting all of you and discussing these works in a friendly, but serious way.

The Recognitions sold me (and Hopscotch, too). Can hardly wait. Congrats on your new group. Hope to be able to make a contribution
Mark (from Bookish)

First of all: OMG HOPSCOTCH *drools*

I'm Alasse, and I like big brainy books. I'm also a metafiction freak.

I'm a doctor and currently preparing for a surgical residency, but I'm a humanities girl at heart. Movies, art and specially books play a big part in how I see and connect to the world.

Jim already knows what my approach to discussion groups is. I love goofing around and I don't particularly feel the pressure to say something that will blow people away. However, I also appreciate some structured discussion every now and then, particularly when I'm reading big scary books and I need all the support I can get.

See you around!

Neat idea for a group, Jim. I'm sure I'll be around for some of these reads!

I'm looking forward to some of these reads, Jim. I look forward to joining you all in 2012.

Challenging books, structured reading, serious discussion. What's not to love? Never would've thought I'd miss English class, but I do have a craving for the critical analysis of literature that occurred there, and I hope this group fills the need.

Great idea Jim!
I have a feeling of that I will suffer from "brain pain" when 2012 moves towards its end (probably earlier). Your analogy of slaying dragons works quite well for these tombs. I am a biologist/humanist based in California. Looking forward to the journeys here as well as in Bookish. Thanks for taking the initiative on this one Jim!

Welcome everyone! A pleasure to see you all here!

Hi, all.

This is a pretty good selection of books.

My wishlist of BrainPain Fodder is in my "Exert Yourself" shelf.

At this stage, I'm anticipating more pleasure than pain.

I'm interested in reading and reviewing "The Recognitions" and "Infinite Jest" as part of a group.

I read "Ulysses" for the first time this year.

I've read "Gravity's Rainbow" twice pre-GR (decades apart), but would love to do it again.

Those three alone (i.e., not "Ulysses", which I count as 2011) would make for a pretty good year for me.

Ian wrote: "Hi, all.

This is a pretty good selection of books.

My wishlist of BrainPain Fodder is in my "Exert Yourself" shelf.

At this stage, I'm anticipating more pleasure than pain.

I'm interested in re..."

Welcome Ian! Dalkey Archive is publishing a new edition of The Recognitions in January.

If you don't wish to read Ulysses again, i hope you'll consider joining in the discussion. A veteran would be appreciated!

Yes it's true, this is about pleasure, not pain, but Brain Pain has that lovely alliterative ring to it that just begs to be printed on t-shirts and coffee mugs (LOL!).

Thanks, Jim

I'll join in in anything.

I'm always up for a bit of cerebral revelry.

This is a wonderful idea and I love the structure involved. I have yet to read any of these books and I hope to participate with all.

I am currently studying english literature and spanish language at the undergraduate level. I love to read and write. I also have a new-found love/hate passion for biology.

I look forward to the new year and Woolf!

Woolf! Woolf! (Sorry, is this setting a bad example?)

Stephen wrote: "This is a wonderful idea and I love the structure involved. I have yet to read any of these books and I hope to participate with all.

I am currently studying english literature and spanish languag..."

Welcome Stephen. This group is designed with writers in mind - even though I haven't made that explicit yet (the secret is now out!).

Enjoy your passion for biology and the sciences. While some might see the arts in opposition to the sciences, I have always found them to be complementary sides of the same coin.

Ian wrote: "Woolf! Woolf! (Sorry, is this setting a bad example?)"

It's only a bad example if the villagers come running to your cries...

Jim wrote: "Enjoy your passion for biology and the sciences. While some might see the arts in opposition to the sciences, I have always found them to be complementary sides of the same coin"

That's what I would like to think! But when I introduced some genetics to my feminist theory class, it didn't go over very well.

@Stephen w

How did they respond? Now I am curious... Besides, why were you teaching genetics in the fem theory class....?

Stephen wrote: "That's what I would like to think! But when I introduced some genetics to my feminist theory class, it didn't go over very well..."

Oh my! That's a losing battle. Probably best to stick to the syllabus, LOL!

I'm so excited about Woolf too! I read A Room of One's Own recently, which was my first Woolf. I really enjoyed the experience, but of course I know that's not her standard work. So I'd already made a mental note of reading something else by her. I though it was gonna be Orlando or To the Lighthouse, but whatever - I'd rather have the company :D

Stephen?? Please explain. I keep having that conversation with my scientist girl friends, and it's the feminism part that they don't get (?)

Haaze wrote: "@Stephen w

How did they respond? Now I am curious... Besides, why were you teaching genetics in the fem theory class....?"

We weren't teaching genetics in the class, but I introduced material from my biology class into the feminist class. We were exploring the idea that sex is constructed. This was mostly around the ideas of Judith Butler, for anyone who is familiar with her work. But I was talking about the process of gamete production, that is the creation of eggs and sperm. When fertilization occurs, you are given an "X" chromosome from your mother and either a "Y" or "X" chromosome from your father. If you receive a "X" from mom and a "Y" from dad, usually you are a boy, or "X" and "X", you are usually a girl.

But there is a process involved when the "X" and "Y" are created called crossing over. This is involved in all chromosomal production with the intent to pass down to the next generation. Usually the "SRY" gene, the gene that creates testicles, stays with the "Y" chromosome. Sometimes it doesn't. So you may end up with an "XX" individual that has the "SRY" gene. A typical "female" with testicles. Or you can have an "XY" without "SRY". A typical "male" without testicles.

I said that this seemed to say that none of our notions of what creates male and female biologically, seems to hold. But no one took it seriously. I was told that I didn't understand the work of Judith Butler. Blah, blah, blah.

It comes from a general disrespect for science from the majority of humanities. They seem to think these "theories" are better than scientific findings and empirically proven data.

Sorry to clog the thread with a biology lecture!
But @Alasse, what don't the scientist friends get?

Interesting scenario! I have noticed that empirical knowledge often is viewed as another set of "theories" from non-scientists (not always). Is that overall true in your experience Stephen? Besides, I think that humanities and the sciences need a healthy discourse to stay vibrant...

Stephen wrote: "I said that this seemed to say that none of our notions of what creates male and female biologically, seems to hold. But no one took it seriously. I was told that I didn't understand the work of Judith Butler. Blah, blah, blah.
It comes from a general disrespect for science from the majority of humanities. They seem to think these "theories" are better than scientific findings and empirically proven data..."

You are a brave man Stephen! All theories, whether in the arts or sciences, have a tendency to favor their ideas over others. I don't know if I would classify it as 'disrespect' though. It's more likely fear and suspicion of the unknown/unfamiliar 'other', but most theorists wouldn't want to admit that...

Haaze wrote: "Interesting scenario! I have noticed that empirical knowledge often is viewed as another set of "theories" from non-scientists (not always). Is that overall true in your experience Stephen?"

I'd find that to be true. I mean, here's my opinion. The "truth" is extremely difficult to know. And I am totally down with any Hume or Descartes skeptic arguments about how to really "know" anything. But the scientific method is the best way that we have to uncovering what is objectively true in the world. I think that, at the very least, there needs to be respect for that. I see too many of my classmates taking in our theories as truth and scoff at science, calling it patriarchal and such. It seems so backwards to me.

Stephen wrote: "Sorry to clog the thread with a biology lecture!
But @Alasse, what don't the scientist friends get?."

BTW, Stephen, this is intended to be a zone of intellectual free expression, so please continue.

Hmmmm.... maybe I should create a folder called "The Zone of Intellectual Free Expression". But not right now. It's time for Sunday dejeuner, so see you all later!

Stephen wrote: "I said that this seemed to say that none of our notions of what creates male and female biologically, seems to hold. But no one took it seriously. I was told that I didn't understand the work of Judith Butler. Blah, blah, blah."

Wait what?? What's that got to do with Judith Butler? It's a fact, and I thing you made an excellent point - even hard-core science can sometimes question our assumptions about the nature of biological sex. I mean, I don't if it was pertinent to the class, but it's still an excellent point. I got your back :o)

Essentially, my friends don't get that I'm a feminist at all. These are girls who have had every opportunity so far - no one has ever questioned their right to enter medical school and opt for traditionally male specialties in equal terms with our male classmates. In fact, we barely have any male classmates at all - 8 out of 10 new medschool graduates in my country are women. So they feel uncomfortable whenever the subject comes up, because they feel that we've somehow arrived. Feminism is of no use anymore, and I'm a destructive feminist because I refuse to let the guy pick up the check on the first date.

Now don't get me wrong - I'm all for romance and I like my men attentive and caring. I'm all for roses and sharing umbrellas. But it needs to go both ways. These girls don't realize that, though the vast majority of doctors in this country are women, they represent only 20% of professors and heads of department in university. We have simply not arrived anywhere.

And you know why I'm not a destructive feminist? Because I don't think the fault lies entirely with men. Forget about universities - only 15% of Wikipedia collaborators are women. Writing a Wikipedia article doesn't require any sort of male support - you don't need to be hired, you don't need special qualifications given out by men. Yet women don't write on Wikipedia, because even though they can go to college and have control over their sexual lives, they still don't truly believe that they have something to say that the rest of the world will appreciate.

I think it's naive to blame that on some sort of Penile Conspiracy. For god's sake, we already have every basic right that you can think of - isn't it time to accept some responsibility too?

I firmly believe that every time a woman doesn't get hired because she might get pregnant, it is us who are responsible. Because if we forced our partners to take care of the children in equal terms, if we didn't tacitly accept that work-life balance is mainly a female issue, we wouldn't have to take that crap anymore.

Whoa, that came out a lot angrier than it sounded in my head. I need coffee.

Hi all. Does your posting imply I need to take a stance on the Penile Conspiracy? *joking gently*

I'm thrilled you all will be reading The Recognitions since I'm currently reading it & am fairly certain I will still be doing so in April.

And in the meantime, I want to see if I still love The Waves. It might yield clues about how I've changed/not changed over the past 20 years. Not to mention, it's a great book, imo, whatever I may think of it.

Hi Ellie! Whoa, that bad? If Ellie needs that many months to get through something, the rest of us are doomed. Dooooomed!!

Alasse wrote: "I think it's naive to blame that on some sort of Penile Conspiracy. For god's sake, we already have every basic right that you can think of - isn't it time to accept some responsibility too?"

That's a very interesting perspective. I didn't know the fact about wikipedia. I think that most readily supports your assertion. The anonymity of internet usage renders lays all gender discrimination of access to the wayside. There's an interesting androgyny there. The fact that wikipedia is mostly male-run is a good indication of women's pursuits and what they think they can/cannot do. It reminds me of two things that my teacher told me. The first, that girls have a tendency to not talk during class discussions and the boys talk the most in class. Also, that the reason for the gender disparity in literary publication is due to the fact that males submit for publication almost 3 times more than females submit for publication.

Maybe I should also make clear that I don't subscribe to the asinine "women don't do certain things cause they just can't!" opinion. Of the things that I mentioned, we all know very well that women are capable of doing these things in comparable proportion to men. In highlighting these things, I'm trying to show the effects that socialization and majority opinions can have on the individual.

Alasse wrote: "Hi Ellie! Whoa, that bad? If Ellie needs that many months to get through something, the rest of us are doomed. Dooooomed!!"

I've been distracted by Murakami's 1Q84. The Recognitions is actually wonderfully readable (although not especially a "fast" read).

I think everyone here knows me already from Bookish, but, hey - I'm El. I'll probably regret coming here because I really don't need encouragement to read more big books and I don't want to over-extend myself. But I am especially interested in reading The Recognitions, and realize I probably need a buddy system for that one.

I'm a huge nerd for a lot of things, most of which revolves around literature in some way. Talking about books is one of my favorite things to do outside of actually reading books, but finding people to talk about books with me in the real world has been difficult. Thank Darwin for the Interwebs.

Already a discussion of gender and feminism! The water seems nice here. Hope I can contribute something.

El wrote: "I think everyone here knows me already from Bookish, but, hey - I'm El. I'll probably regret coming here because I really don't need encouragement to read more big books and I don't want to over-e..."

Hi El, Hi Ellie!

I'm very pleased that on Day One, members are letting it all hang out! The reading list is a challenge and I encourage everyone to pull out all the stops and let your intellect run wild!

I'm also looking forward to The Recognitions. The Dalkey Archive is publishing a new edition in January, so look for that if you don't already own a copy.

I may be more of a lurker than a contributor. I have the best intentions to read some of these books, but then my pace dwindles and the discussion moves beyond me....

I'm Liz. I live in NYC and work in the performing arts and am currently on a mission to read all of the books I should have read in school, but didn't. There is no particular plan or order to this reading, just a never-ending tbr list including most any book that has ever made an appearance on a "books you must read and/or won a prize" list.

Ulysses is on that list (six times, actually).

Liz M wrote: "I may be more of a lurker than a contributor. I have the best intentions to read some of these books, but then my pace dwindles and the discussion moves beyond me....

I'm Liz. I live in NYC and ..."

Welcome Liz! This is most definitely a drop-in group. Choose what moves you and join in the discussion.

If you can, jump into the Ulysses read. We're giving it 10 weeks of discussion time, 2 chapters per week, plus an extra week to look at the work as a whole. I have not posted this yet, but as an extra element, I'll open a parallel thread where the truly brave can discuss the Ulysses chapters as related to their corresponding chapters in The Odyssey - extra Brain Pain!

Hi, I'm Angela. I came here via Bookish, where I'm mostly a lurker.

My background is in engineering, although I don't really do that for a living - I do freelance work helping companies write up R&D projects so they can get tax credits from the government, and I work at a chocolate factory (Ferrero).

In general I like to read non-fiction and fiction that makes me think. But right now I'm swamped with work, and seem to be reverting to brain candy. I already have various plans and literally a stack of books on my desk for when work goes back to normal in a couple months, so my joining this group might be more aspirational than something I actually follow through with. Hopefully not - a couple of your chosen books are already on my TBR list, and the others sound really interesting.

Mmmmm....Ferrero.

Angela wrote: "Hi, I'm Angela. I came here via Bookish, where I'm mostly a lurker.

My background is in engineering, although I don't really do that for a living - I do freelance work helping companies write up ..."

Welcome Angela! Our first read, The Waves, is the shortest at 220 pages. Compared to the others, this might be the easiest to fit into a busy schedule. Woolf explores the nature of identity through the 'dramatic soliloquies' of six characters. Join in if you can.

And as Mark said, how do we get in on the chocolate situation???

Sadly, they do bag checks as we leave :-(

And yes, I was just thinking that your schedule of having The Waves first, when I'm still likely to be somewhat busy, might allow me to still be able to join in. (Versus if you had something longer scheduled first.)

Welcome MB!

As a tech writer, you might enjoy Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values. There is a lengthy discussion about the difference between classical and romantic reasoning, which he begins by discussing tech manuals. It's a little bit of a late-hippie-era time capsule, but a great read.

Stephen wrote: " I see too many of my classmates taking in our theories as truth and scoff at science, calling it patriarchal and such. It seems so backwards to me. "

I completely agree with that. At least the scientific method doesn't ignore the fact that theories may be proven wrong sometime in the future, and grows stronger as a result. Humanities all too often gets stuck for ages on the wrong answer due to pride and whatnot (I'll admit science does as well, but more of an effort is made to correct it). And you know, I have to wonder how people can scoff at something that has improved their quality of life so drastically in the last couple of centuries. Someone isn't making the connection between their ideas and real life very well >>

Angela wrote: "Hi, I'm Angela. I came here via Bookish, where I'm mostly a lurker.

My background is in engineering, although I don't really do that for a living - I do freelance work helping companies write up ..."

An engineer in a chocolate factory. That has so much potential for amazing.

Aubrey wrote: I completely agree with that. At least the scientific method doesn't ignore the fact that theories may be proven wrong sometime in the future, and grows stronger as a result. And you know, I have to wonder how people can scoff at something that has improved their quality of life so drastically in the last couple of centuries. Someone isn't making the connection between their ideas and real life very well >>

True Aubrey! It becomes an especially sensitive issue on topics such as evolution. Generally, it is not known that our understanding of gravity is weaker than evolutionary theory. Again, the word "theory" tends to wreak havoc as its use in daily language is pretty much similar to an "idea", while, as you know, its use in science is completely different. It doesn't matter how many times (or how many different ways) one explains it. It gives me brain pain just thinking about those experiences!!!!!

You are right in terms of our amazing ability to be good "users" of all the progress of science (e.g. in medicine or engineering) while being quite clueless about the foundations of these applications. Is this the curse of a specialized society?

Hi Brain Painers!

There are so many books on this list I have been wanting to read, but was too chicken to go it alone. I have the feeling that discussing them with you guys will be exactly the Brain Tylenol I need to get the most out of the experience. Huzzah!

Stephen wrote: "We weren't teaching genetics in the class, but I introduced material from my biology class into the feminist class. We were exploring the idea that sex is constructed."

I've seen constructivist ideas of science go over about as well in the molecular bio lecture hall as crossing-over did with the Judith Butler crowd...which biological evidence of a non-dual gender continuum, by the way, those feminist theorists should have eaten up. Good on you for throwing it out there!

And feel I can say this, because I am an English major wannabe/biologist. Unfortunately, English major was right up there with doctor, lawyer and astronaut on my mother's list of Forbidden Life Paths, so I ended up studying forest diseases. And loving it. But the force of the humanities stayed with me, so when I decided to go to grad school in forest pathology, I specifically chose an interdisciplinary department where social and natural scientists worked together in sweetness and harmony, using their distinct, but complementary, ways of knowing to shed light on different facets of the same environmental problems. Like an engineer in a chocolate factory. HA! Social science/natural science cat fight was more like it.

But I kept to my personal principles. And I still think that the perspective provided by the humanities, aside from its intrinsic value, is essential to doing good science. And to good science classes. And vice versa.

(Even as I know that, for a cross-country flight, I would prefer an airplane designed by someone applying information gained via the scientific method to flight technology, over one designed by those sociology dudes who say "science" is a socially constructed, essentialist and over-privileged way-of-knowing, indistinguishable from non-science...you guys are so right about the folks who don't like science but like the technology derived from science.)

Whoa. Excuse me. That got out of control fast. But yay for challenging books and Brain Gain! Can't wait to get started!

I'm Laurel, and I have a migraine. I'm currently in a battle with Virginia Woolf and thought maybe I could find some help here.

Aubrey wrote: "An engineer in a chocolate factory. That has so much potential for amazing."

Well, to be fair, there are actual engineers working as engineers there. I'm not one of them. I'm a general labour temp who was then trained to be a machine operator. And then on tonight's shift I get to be trained on something yet again new. I'm curious to see where it all leads.

Re: science and the humanities and feminism - this reminds me of a book I read recently, Primate Visions, in which the author argues that gender and cultural prejudices can bias scientific research (for example, researchers studying chimps who just assumed that the primary power relationships would be between males, so didn't even bother collecting data on the females). Made me realize that scientific research isn't always as objective as I'd thought.

Angela wrote: "the author argues that gender and cultural prejudices can bias scientific research "

There's no doubt that there is gender prejudice within the scientific community, just as there is gender prejudice in society as a whole. However this says nothing about the foundations of science, namely the scientific method, which makes no kind of gender distinction and I really don't buy the "product of patriarchy" argument either. The scientific community certainly has its flaws, but it is built within its system of constant reevaluation to make room for improvement. There not much of that to be found within the theories that I'm talking about. Theory is an important way of knowing things about the world. However, it should always be remembered that it is theory and always will be until proven with viable evidence.

Stephen wrote: Theory is an important way of knowing things about the world. However, it should always be remembered that it is theory and always will be until proven with viable evidence.

I think you meant hypothesis..?

Welcome Aubrey, Rachel, and Laurel!

I set up some new discussion spaces today

Z.I.F.E. - for discussing various ideas that might not be directly related to our reading and/or are complete tangents but ought to be discussed because that's what we do here.

St. James Infirmary - The only online pseudo-medical facility with its own theme-song. Go there to treat and/or discuss what ails your mind and body.

Laurel, please report to The Nurse's Office and tell us why Ms. Woolf is giving you a migraine.

Enjoy!

Thanks for this intriguing board, Jim.

I am joining mostly to make it easier to be a lurker, although both The Waves and Ulysses are among my TBR -- I'll probably re-listen, continue to listen to Ulysses since I do own the CDs -- I've not managed to finish the thing. I generally like Woolf, but a brief amount of time with The Waves suggests I'm in for something at least slightly, perhaps significantly, different.

I am joining because I found this group different from other groups, and was hit by a revelation that for too long I have been focused on the quantity of books I have been reading and not the quality.

I love to read and I am currently studying a BA in English in rather cold country of Norway. I hope with this group that I will be able enhance and change my perspective on the world in which we live through
complex literature.

Lily wrote: "I generally like Woolf, but a brief amount of time with The Waves suggests I'm in for something at least slightly, perhaps significantly, different..."

Welcome Lily!

Here's a quote from the introduction in my edition by Kate Flint:

"'Stream-of-consciousness', a term often loosely used of Woolf's prose in this novel, is in fact inappropriate in its suggestion of a continuous flow. Instead, the images of waves, with their incessant, recurrent dips and crests, provides a far more helpful means of understanding Woolf's representation of consciousness as something which is certainly fluid, but cyclical and repetitive, rather than linear. Additionally, since language is a shared medium, the novel dramatizes how identities themselves do not stand, ultimately, clear and distinct, but flow and merge into each other."

I think we're in for something different too!