Discovering Russian Literature discussion

Here's the thread for our short fiction reading and as you see I changed our next story from Ward No:6 to Ariadne, a less depressing still one of his best short stories. New readers be aware of spoilers. Thank you! Enjoy!

If you're reading for the first time or need to go through the text again, check the following links:
http://www.classicreader.com/book/205...

Here's a link to the goddess Ariadne as she appears in Greek mythology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne

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Few questions to get things start:

Is Ariadne a gold-digger, a flirt or what? What on earth is she looking for in a man?

Did or didn't she abuse the love of a decent man (Shamohin)?

Do you think Shamohin is a misogynist or is his argument on women correct? "A woman ought to be trained so that she may be able, like a man, to recognise when she's wrong, ..."

Who gets your sympathy or condemnation in the end?

Ok, I'll bite. I remember this one, though I'll not go through it again. Ariadne is a gold-digger, but I think she is more than that, she's complex but I didn't feel sorry for the in the end. I think she's looking for a man who is wealthy to provide for her. As for love, I don't think she loved either that man (can't remember the name)who she had an affair or Shamohin.

I don't think Shamohin is a misogynist I think her behaviour made him to be a cynic. I don't remember his argument, what was it?

I think the end is very open. We can interpret it anyway we like. I know some say that this is a story a meditation on pure love but that contradict the end doesn't it? :)

Oh, I just realized you posted a link with the story! Thank you. I will try to read it soon!

I was really looking forward to Ward No. 6. I had in fact already started reading it,

Silver wrote: "I was really looking forward to Ward No. 6. I had in fact already started reading it,"

Sorry Silver, I just thought members may not like it to read in December but I can open a thread, shall I? or join us for this. Ariadne is one of the Chekhov's best just like Ward No. 6.

I'm thinking about adding the remaining stories to 2012 reading. The Forged Coupon is too long to read in December specially with Holidays coming and I couldn't find an e-book of Isaac Babel's "The Death of Dolgushov". I wanted to add Mikhail Zoshchenko's "Yuletide Story" which goes well for the Holidays, again, no text.

I can add "Ward No. 6" instead of "The Student" would you like it?

Amalie wrote: "Silver wrote: "I was really looking forward to Ward No. 6. I had in fact already started reading it,"

Sorry Silver, I just thought members may not like it to read in December but I can open a thre..."


I have to admit I would be in favor of having a discussion of Ward No. 6. I have been wanting to read that one for a while.

Since I have already started it, I will see if I can get to Ariadne after finishing it.

Shanez wrote: "I don't think Shamohin is a misogynist I think her behaviour made him to be a cynic. I don't remember his argument, what was it? ..."

I don't think either but, I don't think he gets my sympathy either.

Here you go, this is his argument.

"yes, and it's our education that's at fault, sir. In our towns, the whole education and bringing up of women in its essence tends to develop her into the human beast -- that is, to make her attractive to the male and able to vanquish him. Yes, indeed" -- Shamohiri sighed -- "little girls ought to be taught and brought up with boys, so that they might be always together. A woman ought to be trained so that she may be able, like a man, to recognise when she's wrong, or she always thinks she's in the right. Instil into a little girl from her cradle that a man is not first of all a cavalier or a possible lover, but her neighbour, her equal in everything. Train her to think logically, to generalise, and do not assure her that her brain weighs less than a man's and that therefore she can be indifferent to the sciences, to the arts, to the tasks of culture in general. The apprentice to the shoemaker or the house painter has a brain of smaller size than the grown-up man too, yet he works, suffers, takes his part in the general struggle for existence. We must give up our attitude to the physiological aspect, too -- to pregnancy and childbirth, seeing that in the first place women don't have babies every month; secondly, not all women have babies; and, thirdly, a normal countrywoman works in the fields up to the day of her confinement and it does her no harm. Then there ought to be absolute equality in everyday life. If a man gives a lady his chair or picks up the handkerchief she has dropped, let her repay him in the same way. I have no objection if a girl of good family helps me to put on my coat or hands me a glass of water --"

I do not understand however the connection between the character and the Classical character?!

Amalie wrote: "Here's the thread for our short fiction reading and as you see I changed our next story from Ward No:6 to Ariadne, a less depressing still one of his best short stories. New readers be aware of spo..."

I don't really think she is a gold-digger. She just seems immature, and unable to support herself in any way other than the way she is in the story. I think she is kind of a flirt, but I don't think she has figured out what she wants in a man. I think both men and women in this story have ideals that make them unable to 'cope' with the real persons they are interested in romantically. Purity, the notion of what it is to be pure, seems to be the thing that confuses all the men and Ariadne.
The only connection that seems clear to me between the character and the mythological character is Myth itself. Idealizing and removing a person from the realm of the human being, and exalting it into the realm of god/goddess.
I don't think she abused the love of a decent man. I think she saw him maybe as too good for her, because he did not display the 'manly' side of himself to her. That is, he did not respond to her clues in any sexual way, he was above that instinct. He was not human, but godlike in his purity and idealization of love...

Christi wrote: "I think both men and women in this story have ideals that make them unable to 'cope' with the real persons they are interested in romantically. Purity, the notion of what it is to be pure, seems to be the thing that confuses all the men and Ariadne. ..."

Yes, true. I agree with most things you've said Christi, I specially like your theory about the mythological character, but I still feel Ariadne was looking for a wealthy man to provide her. Then when she had enough with him she moved to another. May be Gold-digger isn't the exact term but Ariadne doesn't get my sympathy. I'm guessing these are common in Chekhov's characters. I remember while reading In the Ravine it was very difficult to say who is good and who is bad.

Christi wrote: "I don't really think she is a gold-digger. She just seems immature, and unable to support herself in any way other than the way she is in the story. I think she is kind of a flirt, but I don't think she has figured out what she wants in a man...."

I'm not sure if she's a gold-digger but she is a narcissist. When Shamokhin refused to elope with her, she eloped with Lubkov, a married man. When she had enough with him she begs Shamokhin to come to her. She's clearly self-centered and the narrator is right when he tells that women should learn "to recognize when she's wrong, or she always thinks she's in the right". He's generalizing it clearly because he is hurt by her. His money is now almost gone and his life is destroyed.

Then there's a problem: Is the narrator reliable? Shamokhin's weaknesses project her to be "evil" but is she really? He is obviously biased right?

About her connection to the myth: Ariadne is connected to Minotaur's labyrinth and Shamokhin is caught in a web from which he cannot extricate himself. Can that be a connection?

I agree with both Shanez and Amalie on the points just made. I believe Ariadne is looking to be provided for; that is part of the problem with the whole way she was raised, and a good place to look to when thinking about this story. What alternative does she have? She has never been given any training to be any other way.

And yes, I wonder if the narrator is reliable. Of course he isn't completely! We have to look at both characters without knowing if the descriptions we have are true, or if they are only perceptions. I do not think she is evil?! She is HUMAN, and that, to me, is the point. She is a flawed human, and so is Shamokhin. Yet they don't accept and love that humanness.
Yes, the labyrinth must figure in here somewhere! Maybe then this reality is the opposite of the myth; instead of being freed from the labyrinth, he is caught up in it, and there is no goddess to rescue him. And, again, doesn't the narrator sort of say that part of the problem with the male/female relationship in Russia (and I would add 'everywhere') is this tendency to idealize the other sex? To give them the qualities of gods/goddesses then to be disappointed when they realize the other is not above human flaws?

I didn't look at it that way, you have a point Christi, she is human, too much criticism is not right, specially with a narrator who can be biased. It's a very good point Amalie has made there and you've completed it.

But for me, she is still a shallow woman a life full style and surface. I'll say it again she wants a man who can provide her (ok may be not completely a gold-digger ;)

Then what you said is right. She doesn't get satisfied there, she wants Shamokhin because the money and "manliness" of Lubkov was not enough for her. Shamokhin has something more pure as you've said there something god-like. She knows what she wants but yet she doesn't know what she wants or how to get it. These characters are hopeless.

People say nothing much happens in a Chekhov's s. stories but with what I read so far (Ward no 6 included) I think he is great. If one writes a lot of s. stories obviously not all can be amazing, right?

Christi wrote: "I believe Ariadne is looking to be provided for; that is part of the problem with the whole way she was raised, and a good place to look to when thinking about this story. What alternative does she have? ..."

Her flaws can be as results of the way she was brought up. Shamokhin himself says "it's our education that's at fault". Then what you say is right again about the male/female relationship in Russia.

This is an excellent discussion. I see a lot of sides I didn't see before. Interesting theory about the labyrinth. I like it a lot! There is no goddess to rescue him because Ariadne is no goddesses. She is human just like everyone else and Shamokhin's fate is unavoidable.

Another thing, don't you find both characters have obsessive behavior? and Shanez yes, they are hopeless.

Not trying to be so critical but Ariadne reminds me Helen in War and Peace. She is the one who Pierre marries. Ok, I hate that character, may be Ariadne is better than her.

Btw, is it ok if we read Ward number 6 next instead of "The Student"? I thought it would be depressing. I choose "The Student" because they say it was Chekhov's favourite so I want to know why.

I just looked over the first part of the story again, and this caught my attention: the narrator says "I want to believe that in his struggle with nature the genius of man has struggled with physical love too, as with an enemy, and that, if he has not conquered it, he has at least succeeded in tangling it in a network of illusions of brotherhood and love; and for me, at any rate, it is no longer a simple instinct of my animal nature as with a dog or a toad, but is real love, and every embrace is spiritualized by a pure impulse of the heart and respect for the woman..." I think this 'tangling' of nature/physical love into a 'network of illusions' is the labyrinth. There is no exit from there!! Very 'hopeless', Shanez! I also found Lubkov's (is this name a play on the word Love?)comment interesting: "To my thinking, a woman's a woman and a man's a man. Ariadne may be poetical and exalted, as you say [referring to Shamokhin], but it doesn't follow that she must be superior to the laws of nature."

I have not read War and Peace yet, so I can't comment on Ariadne/Helen myself.

"Ward #6" is fine for me to read next.

Nice idea about the labyrinth! Yes, "Lubkov" means love? Liubov also means love then I think. Must be something of that name thing in Russian. In "The Cherry Orchard" the main character's name is Liubov/Liuba also means love.

I've read War and Peace first 2 books then I stopped I'd like to start again one day, Helen is far more worse than Ariadne, Amalie. Ariadne is an angel compared to her.

I too don't mind "Ward no.6". I see Silver is reading it too.

Christi wrote: "I have not read War and Peace yet, so I can't comment on Ariadne/Helen myself..."

I only read the first one but I learned enough to understand I /readers don't like her and I think you are right Shanez, Ariadne is so much better.