World Mysteries and Thrillers discussion

I'm a huge fan of the Bond movies, always been one, and I especially love the old ones. I have seen the old ones a lot of times, and tend to see the whole Bond set chronologically about once a year. So for me the Bond was the movies as a start point.

But I want to compare the books to them... I have a few on my TBR pile, hopefully no interruptions occur so I can start them again in a few weeks. Anyone else want to join a Bondathon? Well, perhaps in this case it would not hurt to do the movie Bondathon first, as I totally expect the books to be better, as usual. Even if the movies are really good and timeless.

So if you've read some or want to read some, join :)

So far the only two Bond books I recall reading are Doctor No, and Ian Gardner's Icebreaker (which they didn't make as a movie). The second one was OK, but it reminded me too much of the usual way when an author becomes too popular or dies before all the work is finished on his books. Like all the Gayle Lynds and Lustbaders (well, he could get very close to Ludlum's style but still) and all the others who had to finish Ludlum's books when he died, or the ones who helped do the Covert One series. There's the original, and there's the good enough. But it's time for the originals.

So, which Ian Fleming's James Bond books have you read? Which ones do you like most?
Which characters do you like most? Which differ from their movie presentations?

And of course, where relevant, the movies can be discussed too. :)

In Dr. No book I think the character of Honey Rider was much deeper than in the movie. She had a background that was much too shortened for the movie, and everything e.g. from her home (apart of the learning from the dictionaries) was discarded. Also she was supposed to have a Jamaican accent. I would have adored to hear her with a Jamaican accent in the movie - since they did dub Ursula Andress after all to hide her accent.

I usually prefer the chronological order for the books and movies, but in this case, if I find On Her Majesty's Secret Service, that would have to be the next as the movie left me way too curious. I'm not too fan of Lazenby, but he works in the movie well enough to carry that story. I just don't understand Mrs Bond at all. What does James see in that rich, spoiled, mentally unstable Teresa di Vicenzo? Wait, the unmarried last name is di Vicenzo, where her father's last name is Draco... just so many things make no sense. The Draco/di Vicenzo family are apparently living in Portugal, the father has an Italian accent, Teresa's car has a French license plate, and she has an English accent? Does proper love ever even start in such a cold way? And why does especially Bond call her Tracy all the time? (apart of her "call me Tracy" comment when he dumped Bond at the casino's restaurant after her failed suicide attempt, I did not get any reasons from the movie).

I love a ton of characters from the Bond movies and expect to love them from the books too. I'm very curious also how the recurrent characters appear in the books, especially those that are played by many characters in the movies. Blofeld is my favorite villair, I can't wait to meet him in the books. I'll also be curious to see how Felix Leiter, M, Q and the others are. Moneypenny seemed to be, well, Moneypenny on the books I've read so far. With some of the characters, and not just with Bonds, I don't understand the need to change the characteristics from what they were in the books - like the Bond where Felix is suddenly black, or why they chose Judy Dench to be M when in the books M is clearly male. I don't like the forced "let's make it modern" versions either, when a story was set to happen e.g. during the Cold War.

Well, some of my movie Bond likes would include Connery as my favorite Bond actor (funny, got the sex appeal, does not need to rely on stupid gadgets to get the job done etc), Blofeld as my favorite Bond villain... the movies have also so many things that are enjoyable to see time after time: the interiors, the decorations, the costume design for some of the characters, the lines, how the Bonds have evolved over time. Some of the villains have houses and rooms I'd love to have in my house any day. There are just too many cool ideas design wise and graphically. I've even picked a few pairs of eyeglasses and recommendations for someone else's glasses based on some Bond movies (the black basic grandpa style glasses, but even then they have quite some differences in each early movie).

As most Fleming Bonds were written in the 1960s, I'd expect them to have suffered some vocabulary infortunes for current readers. E.g. Dr. No's most staff was composed of "Chigroes" (which was explained "Chinese Negroes in the same book), which again was not properly displayed in the movie, and which I think a current reprint might be ... well, corrected, modified, you name it.

Well, Bond definitely travels enough to make it a 'World' topic. :)

I have never read any of Flemings books and after learning that a race of people were called "Chiggers", I most definitely will not be reading him.

To me it seems most or at least many books in US published in or before 1970 did use the unfortunate n-words for describing people's appearance. Even some of the brilliant writers (well, not the worst form of the n-words but the word for 'black' in Spanish that was still used for the 'color' for describing people, not it's worse alternative. And those were used even by like Arthur Hailey - otherwise I loved his Airport). To write a book now to use any similar term would be just very bad karma - but I'm still hoping the other books by Fleming would be different in that context.
Let's see if they prove better than that.

Jean, I double-checked in Dr. No - they were described as Chigroes, not the other word. It still does sound quite out-dated and way too classifying, but a bit less bad. I doubt anyone (and hope that no one) would use the word any more.
Let's see what's on the newer ones - if I remember right, at least some were published after the 1960s so those should be a bit more modern.

I think that just took me by surprise because I had never heard the term before. For those who want to join the Bond marathon, your idea sounds great.
There are many books that use words that make me cringe but never enough to make me stop reading altogether :)

I read all the original Ian Fleming Bond Books. Like most films, the movies bear slight similarities, but any strong resemblance is purely coincidental. Not even Sean Connery replicated James Bond from the books.

Anna wrote: "I'm a huge fan of the Bond movies, always been one, and I especially love the old ones. I have seen the old ones a lot of times, and tend to see the whole Bond set chronologically about once a year..."

Good God Anna, you would be my perfect critic, please accept a FREE copy , I know your time is valuable but I can assure you it would not be wasted.

Excerpt
He had turned prematurely gray at age twenty-two, a condition inherited from his mother’s side of the family; a sort of selective, concentrated, pinpoint albinism. He was six one in height and robustly built, he had above average good looks; although his sex appeal was more rooted in his personality, and it increased threefold when he spoke. His looks were more rugged than pretty, like a swarthy Latin Sean Connery or Gerard Butler type, rather than a Ricky Martin or other American teen idol.

Eduardo, send me a message with the details and I'll see where it fits in schedule :) (next few weeks I've got some busy reading + travel schedule, then I'll see what fits next)

Anna wrote: "Eduardo, send me a message with the details and I'll see where it fits in schedule :) (next few weeks I've got some busy reading + travel schedule, then I'll see what fits next)"

I'd like to send you a free copy, a PDF file, as I did for another avid mystery reader, all I'm asking for is for a well thought out review, my objective in all this is to improve my writing and hopefully gain a follwoing, as I am currently working on THE DEVIL'S FOUNTAIN and have two others in my head. I figure the best thing is to go to the source .. intelligent readers /lovers of mysteries like yourself. NEED E MAIL to send you copy , I already sent one to one of the readers on this post.
I truly belive you will enjoy it and it will not be a waste of your valuable time .
Many thanks
Ed

This is not addressed to you Anna but more to some readers who every time an opportunity is made available comment on this issue.

A brief statement, then I will say no more, nor will I go on to contemplate or answer opposite views, as this is not a forum for “ax gridding.“ However, being that this is a forum for readers, I just could not stay quiet.

As both a reader and writer, I am totally opposed to any type of editing, re-editing, cleaning, or scrubbing of past written works. This, no matter what euphemistic palatable words are used is tantamount to censorship, regardless of the good motives behind it.

Although I believe that correcting incorrect facts as stated in history is not only admirable but also necessary, revising past history simply to placate or not offend the sensibilities of a group, is neither honest nor advisable, this slippery slope precedes and can only lead to a world where books are burnt simply because they offend you.

I read for example, that the book Huckleberry Finn will be revised, and reissued with a revisionary edition that will have removed all racially offensive terms. What next?

NO WORD should ever be banned, regardless of how offensive it maybe. There are restrictions to free speech ... I’m sure we are all familiar with the example of yelling “fire” in a crowded theater and others, but short of these, no word should be banned.
Yes, one should refrain from using inappropriate words at inappropriate times, but even foul words when used in a given context are appropriate.

Who will be the ultimate judge? Should I as a Spanish American demand that the word spick be stricken from all past books, and legally forbidden from future ones? Where does it stop, should all derogatory terms be forbidden in literature?

I am more offended by the people that suggest this than by the term in question!

Who was it that said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Now that I have used up my allotted time and ration of pi****g and moaning on with the task at hand.

LOVE Bond ... I have not read the books but have seen all the movies, and now, inspired by Anna will start reading the books.

I can’t say that a comparison to the movies will be entirely fair as the movies are handicapped by time and budget constraints. To be entirely faithful to the book the movie would have to be much longer, perhaps broken into several movies or ongoing episodes. I also think that the commercial motive for profit affects many other decisions, such as making them more contemporary, misguided as it may be.

I do not advocate revising anyone's work. You and any other author have the right to your choice of words in your work. As I stated to Anna in #5, the word "Chigger" took me by surprise because I had never heard it describing Chinese and African Americans. I have never read any of the Bond series, not because of words used, but because Bond is just not my cup of tea.
There are reading suggestions galore in this group and all of us will not agree on certain books and I'm so happy that we have a "choice" without resorting to suggesting that author's works be revised.
Just as you and any other author, as well, have the right to put in print anything you choose, I also have the right to read or not read anything of my choosing. For what ever reason.

message 2: by Jean
Jan 06, 2012 06:04pm

I have never read any of Flemings books and after learning that a race of people were called "Chiggers", I most definitely will not be reading him.
message 4:by Anna
Jan 07, 2012 10:24pm

Jean, I double-checked in Dr. No - they were described as Chigroes, not the other word

Ed:
I see that we are in agreement on the root issue. I was not going to reply, but there appears to be an issue of incorrect use of fact.

In your last statement you continue to misuse the word actually used in the book i.e. Chigroes a term made up of Chinese and negro, the word for black in Spanish, descriptive and historically accurate, although still offensive to some -- not Chiggers ...even after being informed. If the word used had been the later, certainly it would be thought of by most people today as offensive.

I know that when I see any derogatory term about my heritage I am offended; I found it puzzling that you were only “surprised.”

We all have choices of course, and no one is denying this, some however choose to narrow their choices purposely, this at times tends to blind us in following one strict course.

I find it very narrow to dismiss a whole set of work based on the use of one word, one that in this case was not even the word used in the book in question.

Eduardo,
Thanks for the info and update.

I read the original Fleming Bond books many years ago, and have only reread a few. Generally speaking, although a bit dated, they still hold up. I've tried a few of the farmed out Bond books, and haven't cared for them. Maybe I should give them another try.

I was pleased to see that the new film of Casino Royale was very close to the book, aside from technological advances being used in the film.

As I recall, The Spy Who Loved Me bore no resembalance to the film. I rather liked the book.

Has anyone read the bio of Fleming by John Pearson? The Life Of Ian Fleming

Like most people, I saw several of the Bond movies as a child before picking up the books and, honestly, was disappointed with them. Perhaps that's just because the character was too different than what I had come to expect from the movie Bond. It seemed that Fleming's Bond was really more of a sad character, someone who drank too much and who's only real talent was killing people. He just lacked the charisma and style of the movie versions. Also, the fact there was not a huge amount of action in the ones I read was a disappointment, as well. But still probably worth reading one or two of them for their historical significance, if nothing else.

Another off putting product of his times, I guess, is Bond's misogynist attitude. In the films he is an inveterate and promiscuous ladies man but one who loves women. In the (admittedly only one) Bond I read that fun loving attitude toward sex is not there. I thought I was done with Fleming but these posts are inspiring me to read more.

Well, so far I've read two. Dr. No and On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Both of them I like a lot as films - and some modifications I understand for making them as a movie - such as dramatic, expense etc (in the 60s the budgets for the Bonds were quite small, and to have done e.g. the giant squid for Dr. No would have been expensive). I don't get the image of Bond as a ladies' man either - that's just something Connery added for the character on screen. And Sean Connery for me is still the ultimate Bond on film, even if in the first books Bond was something different. As movies, it's the ultimate dream for a guy - exciting job, lots of adventure and action, exotic places, exotic ladies, lots of ladies, nice gadgets, expensive toys etc.

As the books (those two so far, since I don't count John Gardner's Bond books in this category) the characters have been much more interesting than on screen. Honey Rider and her Jamaican accent and her history, and - I'm actually surprised - even Teresa Draco made more sense in the book. I didn't understand in the film why she was so unbalanced, why she wanted to be called Tracy instead of Teresa (other than the "call me Tracy" which didn't cut it for me), why her last name was di Vicenzo, why she had an English accent and her dad didn't, etc etc. Well, in the book those details were there, but explained: Teresa's mother was actually English, and Draco sent her to expensive boarding schools in Switzerland where she cultivated her accent. And she got her last name from an Italian conte, di Vicenzo, who dumped Teresa as soon as he had spent all her money, and got her pregnant. When her infant then died, that's what caused her to go insane and on a six months escape around Europe. "Teresa was a saint; I'm no saint. Call me Tracy" makes much more sense. And Bond didn't keep it in his pants like in the movie - the first night Teresa/Tracy met him, she practically raped and violented him.

Also in OHMSS I think they took a bit too many liberties to make the movie. Piz Gloria and everything in Switzerland actually works beautifully on screen, and for the screen the modifications kind of make sense. Many things don't line up, but they still keep the spirit, kind of. I was surprised when Blofeld actually was about to do his world domination in that book using chemical and biological tools like Anthrax and diseases for farm animals and crops. That just seemed much more modern than I'd imagined as the book is essentially 50 years old. Still, not bad, as the only two things that seem out of date are the attitudes especially toward women (and everyone who's not a white man), and in the movie, the clothing polyester-Bond wore in OHMSS.

I grew up in the '70s - Moore-era Bond. I remember reading the books as a child and being disappointed that they weren't like the films. I know, I know - but I was a kid, don't forget!

I've revisited them and read quite a few. CASINO ROYALE is great, very much of its time but a superb introduction to a very damaged, far from indestructible hero. His coldness must have been a real surprise when he came on the literary stage.

A lot are hard going now as they're very much of their time (like the '70s film adaptations I used to love - what was cutting edge to a wide-eyed eight-year old boy is now cheesy and cringe-inducing) but some are well worth reading: in particular FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE because of the expert narrative crafting - a superb piece of thriller construction.

I am not a great fan of the new Daniel Craig James Bond movies they lack Ian lemings tongue in cheekiness.

If I may, I would like you to try my novel, Rex Randall and the Jericho Secret. Rex is a 21 st century ladies man in a polyamorous relationship.

He and his 5 female companions lead an action packed and adventurous life.

Rex Randall and the Jericho Secret