J.R.R. Tolkien discussion

There is a poll featured at the bottom of the Group home page for a J.R.R. Tolkien Group Read in March. The poll runs until 15 February, so be sure to get your vote in before then.

I've allowed a little time for members to make space in their reading schedules and also, if necessary, time to obtain the poll-winning volume.

So, our Group Read for March will be The Silmarillion!

If you haven't already got a copy, get down to your local book shop or library so that you're ready for the inaugural Goodreads J.R.R. Tolkien Group Read.

Excellent - looking forward to it.

Excellent! I have already read it, but do not mind reading it again and look forward to the discussions :)

I haven't read it yet but I just found the book. I'm little tired of Victorian and Russian (ok may be not Russian:) reads so this will be a different experience. I'll be starting soon and, yeah, would love to join a discussion.

Does that mean we start discussing the book with the beginning of March? Or is there something more structured going on?

Phillip wrote: "Does that mean we start discussing the book with the beginning of March? Or is there something more structured going on?"

We will start the read and the discussion on 1st March. If you start reading before that date you will be imprisoned atop the Tower of Orthanc ;-)

I jest, of course; but the discussion thread will only go up on 1st March so that we're all "officially" starting together.

Be aware in discussions that some will not have read the book before, so please use spoiler tags where appropriate: <*spoiler> hidden text <*/spoiler>, but without the *. This will hide any text until you click on it: (view spoiler)[like this (hide spoiler)].

Thank you, and good to know. I look forward to this.

Michael wrote: "We will start the read and the discussion on 1st March. If you start reading before that date you will be imprisoned atop the Tower of Orthanc ;-)..."

*emails Gwaihir, just in case*

Tracey wrote: "*emails Gwaihir, just in case*"

:-D

How convenient that this is one of the Tolkien books that I haven't read AND that I had just added it to my Dusty Bookshelf list to get read! I guess it's fate telling me that I must read this now!!

Stefan wrote: "How convenient that this is one of the Tolkien books that I haven't read AND that I had just added it to my Dusty Bookshelf list to get read! I guess it's fate telling me that I must read this now!!"

Is this the same fate that meant for Bilbo to get the ring and who meant for Frodo to have it?

Are you referring to...THE PRECIOUSSSSS?!?!?

I hope to start soon (I am going to try to both read it and listen to it as an audio-book, if it is true that it is a bit like reading a religious document, then listening to it might be a very cool experience, like being in a church).

Gundula wrote: "I hope to start soon (I am going to try to both read it and listen to it as an audio-book, if it is true that it is a bit like reading a religious document, then listening to it might be a very coo..."

Listening to the audio version makes all of the difference in the world. Since you mention this let me paste in part of my review of "The Silmarillion"

About 6 years ago I listened to "The Silmarillion" as an audio book while I was working on a long stained glass project. I listen to books that I am interested in but know I will never get around to reading them when I work on glass. It gives my mind something to do while I am working with hands, but they are books that I don't mind if I space out while listening to them for awhile. I am just interested in finding out what is in them.

The narrator was a classically trained Scottish actor. He took away the question of how names were supposed to be pronounced. But more important, I could appreciate the book orally. It makes sense because Tolkien was a poet and his work was designed to mimic histories from another time. The history he wrote would have been shared via. oral singing.

All I can say is I was won over. Before the first 100 pages were done I had stopped working on the glass and just sat in my garage listening to this beautiful presentation. As soon as possible I bought a copy of the book and read while listening. When that was done I turned the library's copy in and turned right around and read the book again, immediately.

As I said at the beginning of this review I have read "The Silmarillion about 6 times to date. During that time I read Verlyn Flieger's "Interrupted Music" which turned me on to mythology in "The History of Middle Earth". I have read through to the volume that describes the writing of "LTR". I love these books and will probably reread them as often as it is possible to do among my other interests.

Phillip wrote: "Gundula wrote: "I hope to start soon (I am going to try to both read it and listen to it as an audio-book, if it is true that it is a bit like reading a religious document, then listening to it mig..."

Thanks. I hope to pick up the audiobook once it is available at the library (I own the book). I think the Narrator is someone called Martin Shaw (or similar).

I like the idea of listening Silmarillion. I think that I will try it myself.

Looking for my old copy right now.

I may have to do what I have done in the past and re-order a book I know I have! ( I think that is a sign that you have way too many books.)

...or maybe not. :)

G.T. wrote: "Looking for my old copy right now.

I may have to do what I have done in the past and re-order a book I know I have! ( I think that is a sign that you have way too many books.)

...or maybe not. :)"

And then once you have ordered your new copy, the old copy will, of course, turn up. That has happened to me more than a few times.

Started this last night, only 15 pages in...interesting to this point.

G.T. wrote: "Looking for my old copy right now.

I may have to do what I have done in the past and re-order a book I know I have! ( I think that is a sign that you have way too many books.)

...or maybe not. :)"

Ha! Yes, I have felt that pain as well.

Gundula wrote: "Thanks. I hope to pick up the audiobook once it is available at the library (I own the book). I think the Narrator is someone called Martin Shaw (or similar). ..."

Martin Shaw is a British TV and stage actor. He has quite a sonorous voice, so I imagine he'll do a good job narrating The Silmarillion.

Michael wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Thanks. I hope to pick up the audiobook once it is available at the library (I own the book). I think the Narrator is someone called Martin Shaw (or similar). ..."

Martin Shaw is a..."

Thanks for the info, I'll be looking forward to it.

So, I've finished the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta. Lot of names to remember, I'll probably be referring back to the Valaquenta often to figure out who's who again.

I can't find the audiobook version at Audible or the library. It looks like if I want the audiobook version, I'll have to buy the CDs.

Stefan wrote: "So, I've finished the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta. Lot of names to remember, I'll probably be referring back to the Valaquenta often to figure out who's who again."

Yes, there's a lot of names. Referring back will be useful, but you'll eventually get used to them.

Reading Ainulindalë feels like reading The Bible or perhaps Hesiod's Theogony, quite a cool feeling, actually). Also, I could imagine a high priest, or even a bard singing this during a large gathering.

Definitely a lot of names to remember. I will also be using the Atlas of Middle-earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad as a guide while reading (I think it will be especially helpful when reading Valaquenta).

Tim wrote: "I can't find the audiobook version at Audible or the library. It looks like if I want the audiobook version, I'll have to buy the CDs.

I promise it will be money well spent.

Gundula wrote: "G.T. wrote: "Looking for my old copy right now.

I may have to do what I have done in the past and re-order a book I know I have! ( I think that is a sign that you have way too many books.)

...or..."

Gundula wrote: "G.T. wrote: "Looking for my old copy right now.

I may have to do what I have done in the past and re-order a book I know I have! ( I think that is a sign that you have way too many books.)

...or..."

Gundula wrote: "G.T. wrote: "Looking for my old copy right now.

I may have to do what I have done in the past and re-order a book I know I have! ( I think that is a sign that you have way too many books.)

...or..."

Guess what I downloaded this morn. I am sure print version will turn up in 49 hours.

G.T. wrote: "Gundula wrote: "G.T. wrote: "Looking for my old copy right now.

I may have to do what I have done in the past and re-order a book I know I have! ( I think that is a sign that you have way too man..."

When I bought my current copy of the Silmarillion, I found my old copy a few days later in one of my boxes (but since a mouse had noshed on it, I am glad I got a new version). I don't think I could read The Silmarillion online (I don't really like reading anything but paper books, although I might have to get an e-reader for downloading classic girls' fiction from Project Gutenberg).

I understand the e-reader issue. Many books I initially downloaded ended up in my physical library as well. I have only managed to finish a couple of short books on my ipad. Usually I end up switching over to the hard volume if I am enjoying the book.

Phillip wrote: "Gundula wrote: "I hope to start soon (I am going to try to both read it and listen to it as an audio-book, if it is true that it is a bit like reading a religious document, then listening to it mig..."

I'd love the idea of listening to Silmarillion! Narrated by Alan Rickman! or ate Blanchett :) Love their voices.

I''ve read many chapters. Just didn't realize earlier that the rivalry between the elves and dwarfs go way back as to their creations.

Amalie wrote: "I''ve read many chapters. Just didn't realize earlier that the rivalry between the elves and dwarfs go way back as to their creations."

That's one of things I really love in this book.

The audiobook of The Children of Húrin is read by Christopher Lee. I'm looking forward to that one.

Tim wrote: "The audiobook of The Children of Húrin is read by Christopher Lee. I'm looking forward to that one. ..."

Can you please point me to a place where I can find this online!

The most interesting I found here was (which I didn't know till I started reading) that there are many goddess figures appear in Tolkien's Middle Earth.

There are no Goddesses figures in Abrahamic religions but perhaps Tolkien is inspired by Virgin Mary being a Catholic. I don't think the Church really call her a goddess because Goddess is a Creatrix in Her Own Right and a source of Divine Power but in Catholicism, Mary is ONLY Blessed, unique among women, sinless, The Mother of God, that's it. But personally I see a her as a link to Ancient Earth Goddesses and I really admire Celtic beliefs. And I always find it easier to speak to a "mother"/goddess.

Does anyone else wonder adding such has anything to do with Tolkien losing his mother when he was a child?

Amalie wrote: "The most interesting I found here was (which I didn't know till I started reading) that there are many goddess figures appear in Tolkien's Middle Earth.

There are no Goddesses figures in Abraham..."

That's a very good observation. I know most Catholics (and I am Catholic or rather a very lapsed Catholic) chafe at the thought and occasional accusation of the cult of the Virgin Mary being very much like old-time goddess worship, but it certainly is there. But I sometimes even wonder if some of the older goddess figures (which likely existed and were worshipped before Judaism, and by extension Christianity and Islam became monotheistic religions) have simply been either incorporated into the figure of God, or made into angles (I know the angels seem to be male, but that might have been a deliberate change). I hope I'm not offending anyone, I'm just musing.

Gundula wrote: "Amalie wrote: "The most interesting I found here was (which I didn't know till I started reading) that there are many goddess figures appear in Tolkien's Middle Earth.

There are no Goddesses fi..."

I too am a Catholic but somewhat liberated :) I totally agree. Christianity is indeed patriarchal. And what you have an interesting point, though I didn't know Judaism had goddess figures?? I always thought giving Mother Mary the position she owns now has a link to the beginning of Christianity as the official religion, Roman Empire/Romans believed in goddesses so having a goddess/or a goddess figure in the new religion might have been an easy reformation. (I too, hope I'm not offending anyone.) Whatever it is Mother Mary is someone easy to love and to admire, and to have faith in, for me and I always considered Lady Galadriel is totally influenced by Virgin Mary. Galadriel is not a goddess, she gives strength and guidance to Frodo, a mother like-figure, and even admired by Gimli.

I despaired of having the time to read the Silmarillion with you all, but your posts inspired me to remember that the audio versions are a real option. I'll wake to a chapter every morning. Failing that, I might have to resort to choosing one of the 15 print editions of the book I have (and I know where all but one of them is ...).

Amalie wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Amalie wrote: "The most interesting I found here was (which I didn't know till I started reading) that there are many goddess figures appear in Tolkien's Middle Earth.

There are..."

I don't think that Judaism has goddess figures, but before the Jews became monotheistic, there likely were both male and female deities worshipped. I was just speculating that perhaps some of the erstwhile female deities or at least some of their attributes might have been incorporated into the one God and some of the angels (even though they were/are considered to be masculine in gender). With the Virgin Mary and the saints (although I have quite a bit trouble believing in the sanctity of the latter especially), there is also the human connection, praying to and talking to a holy, sanctified being, but still a human, less distant than a deity.

Amalie wrote: "Tim wrote: "The audiobook of The Children of Húrin is read by Christopher Lee. I'm looking forward to that one. ..."

Can you please point me to a place where I can find this online!"

Audible.com has it - I think that's where my next credit is going.

Amalie wrote: "Tim wrote: "The audiobook of The Children of Húrin is read by Christopher Lee. I'm looking forward to that one. ..."

Can you please point me to a place where I can find this online!"

All the major booksellers should have the audio CD version (I know Amazon does) and like Tracey said, Audible.com has a version as well. So, if you're an Audible member, get it there, otherwise check whichever bookseller you prefer. If you prefer a local store, ask them to order it in for you.

Amalie wrote: "The most interesting I found here was (which I didn't know till I started reading) that there are many goddess figures appear in Tolkien's Middle Earth..."

One of the major influences on Tolkien's Middle-earth mythos was the Finnish national epic, Kalevala: The Land of the Heroes, in which Ilmatar is the divine creatrix. Many of the names of the Valar are Finnish sounding and Tolkien acknowledged his debt to this poem.

I've read the start of the Kalevala many times and, despite loving the poetic images, have yet to finish it. Maybe reading The Silmarillion again will give me the inspiration to do so.

Michael wrote: "Amalie wrote: "The most interesting I found here was (which I didn't know till I started reading) that there are many goddess figures appear in Tolkien's Middle Earth..."

One of the major influe..."

I'm hoping the same thing (reading The Kalevala). Maybe some group reads could be books that inspired Tolkien or were inspired by him.

I'm hoping that a group read at some point will be The Legend of Sigurd & Gudrún. I've had a copy sitting on my shelf for a few years and haven't got around to it. A group read will give me that extra incentive. That said, I'm up for The Kalevala as a group read too.

Tim wrote: "I'm hoping that a group read at some point will be The Legend of Sigurd & Gudrún. I've had a copy sitting on my shelf for a few years and haven't got around to it. A group read will ..."

That would certainly be of interest to me; it would maybe be cool to compare it to the actual original saga (in English translation, I do not think I could learn enough Old Norse to read it in the original).

Tim wrote: "Amalie wrote: "Tim wrote: "The audiobook of The Children of Húrin is read by Christopher Lee. I'm looking forward to that one. ..."

Can you please point me to a place where I can find this online..."

Thanks! and thank you too Tracey :)

As for other readings, whatever they may be if time permits I'd surely join.

I picked up the audiobook from the library today. I hope it's an actual audiobook and not a dramatisation, but I guess we'll see (or rather, we'll hear).

If it's the one by Martin Shaw, I'm pretty sure it's a normal audiobook.

Tim wrote: "If it's the one by Martin Shaw, I'm pretty sure it's a normal audiobook."

I think so, it says it's unabridged.

The names are so confusing! Are Thingol and Melian & Míriel and Finwë are the same people??

I just finished the end of Míriel and Finwë's story and it is so much similar to the end of Aragorn and Arwen.

The meeting of Thingol and Melian are also similar to the meeting of Aragorn and Arwen... If they are two couples then this story is been repeated if not still I think it gets repeated in Beren and Lúthien right?

Perhaps they are like the drafting ideas for Aragorn and Arwen's tale? BUT the tale of Beren and Lúthien is the most significant romance I think. Why repeating. That must have been one amazingly romantic moment for Tolkien when she sang and and danced for him! :)

Amalie wrote: "The names are so confusing! Are Thingol and Melian & Míriel and Finwë are the same people??

I just finished the end of Míriel and Finwë's story and it is so much similar to the end of Aragorn and ..."

Amalie:

The names are confusing and your question is a natural one. Thingol and Melian & Míriel and Finwë are not the same people. The thing to remember about Tolkien is that first and foremost he was a linguist. It is an attribute of cultures that names are generated from one another without being the same name or same persons. Because this happens in reality he included it as an attribute of his invented world.

Also, it is true that the stories of different characters look like a repeat of stories you will see elsewhere in his writing. "The meeting of Thingol and Melian are also similar to the meeting of Aragorn and Arwen," but I can tell you that it is not the same characters.

Regarding that repetition. Aragorn the half-elf has to come from someplace or he wouldn't be the half-elf. When there are matings between humans and elves it is a significant event because elves and humans have different destinies in the great song or plan of the world.

(view spoiler)[Man's destiny is the gift of dying after a few sort years. Death was not thought to be something to be afraid of until Morgoth and his agents whispered lies that caused people to see it as a curse rather than as a gift. Mankind are not tied to the physical world as are the elves. But, mankind gets to determine and change the destiny of the world in the end.

Elves on the other hand only die if they despair and intentionally turn loose of life or are mortally wounded. Even then they rest in the house of Mandos until the end of time at which point they will participate in the final destiny of the world. The elves don't die, what ever happens to the world happens to them because they are tied to it. But, they don't get a say in how that destiny will end.

One of the wickednesses of Morgoth was to cause elves and men to envy each other's gifts. Man envies Elfish longevity, Elves envy man's ability to effect destiny.

So, there are places in the great story in which Elves and humans mate and have children. Those offspring are special because they get to decide which gifts they will embrace, one or the other but not both. (hide spoiler)]

As you obviously know the story of Beren and Lúthien was important to Tolkien because the moment when the two characters meet is inspired by his own courtship with Edith Brat and his "one amazingly romantic moment for Tolkien when she sang and and danced for him!"

(view spoiler)[When you as a reader love the story "Beren and Lúthien" as I do it is a good thing, rather than repetitious, to see the multiple versions of the story that Tolkien wrote throughout his writing career. The various versions can be found in "The History of Middle Earth. (hide spoiler)]

My advise is don't assume that Tolkien is being a poor craftsman when you see what looks like repeats of the same story. He is doing something significant when he makes different characters do similar things.

(view spoiler)[In the end, the whole Tolkien canvas is about how Eru Ilúvatar is all powerful and that his instruments such as Melkor (Morgoth) are his tools to carry out his will whether they wish to be his instruments or not. During the song Melkor (Morgoth) attempted to take over but Eru simply incorporated the changes of Melkor into the performance so that the changes were only parts resulting in the composition Eru intended from the start.

Each story in the Silmarillion shows the wickedness of Melkor (Morgoth)and describes another way that he attempts to take over the creative process in the world. Every story shows that the closest he comes is the abomination of Orcs and destruction. The Elves do not understand how things will work out in the end.

Though the lives of Elves and Mankind are desperate throughout the history of Middle-Earth we know that all of the struggles of Melkor and eventually his lieutenant Sauron will only have appeared to be invencibility and all of their activities will only have contributed to Eru's original will and plan. (hide spoiler)]