Queereaders discussion

I've just read an interesting quote from a gay-liberation author, John Murphy, writing in the early seventies: "the choice of books dealing with my sexual concerns are limited to a few serious classics, sensational popular novels, and pornography."
Looking at Amazon's current top twenty, does it seem like much has changed? What i see, looking down the list, are only slight variations on the same book - steamy romance, with covers featuring only slight variations on the same image; a muscle dude with his shirt off, or a muscle dude with his shirt off and a dreamy, boyish love interest. It takes till about number twenty till you reach a "serious classic" in the form of Alan Hollinghurst's The Line Of Beauty.
Not to diss any of those books of course; just a question: is there enough diversity in gay writing, exploring themes in the culture, not just romance tales and the odd classic?

Oh gosh, yes. (I don't look at lists, which only reflect readers' buying habits, so I'm unfamiliar with Amazon's.) There's enormous variety in gay fiction; don't be misled by the unfortunate uniformity of the cover art.

I'm tempted to start listing the themes that have been covered, but I'd be here all night!

Interesting topic, Nicholas. We all appreciate a hot bod, but there must be a zillion of these books with some shirtless young stud on the front, a blur of torsos. I think there is diversity in gay writing,but it's like unearthing gems. I can't imagine a better place to find the "gems" than goodreads, where people are eager to give recommendations of great books.My own novel is about a once handsome long term HIV survivor with little real sense of who he is beneath the skin until his world is turned upside down by medication-related lipodystrophy. I won't say it is without its "steamy" passages, but it explores all kinds of issues beyond sex. Diversity is out there if you look.

My advice is this: Don't type "gay fiction" into Amazon, you'll drown yourself in gay erotica (not a bad thing for some people).

The best thing you can do is find a small group of authors who write the sort of fiction you want, and then search for them, or use the internet and groups like this to get more recommendations.

Funnily enough, the books you want are the ones right under your nose. A lot of gay/lesb lit seems to be hidden in plain sight, it's just a case of knowing what is what.

Oh, also check out the Green Carnation prize. That's about LGBT+ lit with an emphasis on gay males at the moment.

I don't think it is really much different for straight literature. Straight romance and porn are hugely popular genres. The problem I see more is like Kathryn says "gay fiction" comes with the stigma of R or X rated romance, for sex's sake. It's a reason I hate the term 'sexual' orientation. For me at least, being Gay is not primarily about sex.

I long for literary novels with Gay characters, like The Line of Beauty and have discovered a gaggle of gems among the chaff (heh, hows that for mixing metaphors?). My favorites so far are:

Dhalgren
The Enchantments of Flesh and Spirit series
Catchtrap
At Swim Two Boys
Maurice
The Persian Boy
Family Favorites
Hadrian's Memoirs
The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier Clay: A Novel
The Line of Beauty
Christopher and His Kind
A Boys Own Story
Willy
Counterpoint: Dylan's Story
Kirith Kirin
The Carnivorous Lamb
Kelland
Ethan of Athos
The Swimming-Pool Library
The Phoenix
Too Much Flesh and Jabez
Letters to Montgomery Clift
The Mirador series

and some I'm forgetting. I would include older author like Gide, Genet... and plays like Bent or The Boys in the Band, better seen than read.

All other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I still have a lot of Isherwood, Edmund White, Hollinghurst... to read. I'm really looking for new authors who have a literary bent and who cause me to think or questions my assumptions.

I've only read two from your list - Kelland and Counterpoint: Dylan's Story. I'd like to read more of Ruth's stories. She is proof that romance can be literary.

As Kathryn mentioned, serious gay/lesbian lit is well hidden, but not difficult to find.

Horror, mystery, SF/F with G/L characters:
Martyrs & Monsters
Lost Souls
Dead Sea
Rise Again: A Zombie Thriller
Expendable
Unicorn Mountain
No Night Is Too Long
A Dangerous Man
Was
Skin
Rot
The Cutting Room

General fiction:
Call Me by Your Name
Only the Lonely
The World of Normal Boys
Bow Grip: A Novel
Black Girl in Paris

For young people, but suitable for adults:
Suicide Notes
Target
What They Always Tell Us
Sprout
Bait
Down to the Bone

Memoirs:
I Am Not Myself These Days: A Memoir
Travels With Lizbeth: Three Years on the Road and on the Streets

Check our group bookshelf for other suggestions.

Robin wrote: "Most of the time I think Amazon needs to update their algorithm or something when it comes to gay books and gay movies."
I think it works fine, instead it's the publishers/authors causing the issues. If you type in "transgender", for example, you end up with a crap load of pornography and disrespectful erotica because it's labelled "transgender erotica" or "transgender sex", even titled that.

What I think really needed to happen - and didn't - was that LGBT+ related erotica needed to have its own separate category that was accessible and visible, and the Gay & Lesbian Literature/Fiction sections should be for books like Kavalier & Clay, Annie on My Mind, Wildthorn and so on.

Thanks for the responses, all very insightful and encouraging. It interests me, though; the idea of multi-generational narratives of social liberation, civil rights, feminism, etc; the 'elders' having gone through such struggles, can often be found criticizing the inheritors of the struggle for being a little feckless, particularly in the realm of feminism; so does gay-lit have any polemical purpose anymore, considering (thouh there's much work still to be done) the culture war has largely been won? Is the mass proliferation of often-times cheesy and facile erotica in fact a good portent that the impetus has gone out of the 'movement' and there's no longer as much a need for works that 'give a voice' and articulate inner pain to isolated, disenfranchised queer people? I for one think there is still a huge scope for articulating / exploring queer culture - what it means to be gay. I'll certainly be following up on your suggestions, and I've generally been aware they're out there; but I was concerned with what constitutes the 'mainstream.' I'll stop now, because I've gone way over my daily quota of 'quotation marks.'

Nicholas wrote: "no longer as much a need for works that 'give a voice'"

I disagree with this observation. Young people in countries where the culture war has supposedly been won are still killing themselves at an alarming rate and living in fear and isolation. Too many countries are yet to begin the battle at all...

Certainly, that does deserve a qualification. There are many regions of the world where your point is apt, and urgent; and still a high suicide rate, in the west, tragically because young gay people have internalized residual societal prejudice. I was positing in terms of post-gay-lib mainstream America, where gay-marriage is supported now by a majority of the population, and the queer community can celebrate and validate itself daily on the net.

Nicholas wrote: "and still a high suicide rate, in the west, tragically because young gay people have internalized residual societal prejudice"

So it's their fault they can't cope with being dis-owned by their familes, sent to psychiatrists and healers to be cured of their afflications, bullied, beaten or sometimes raped by those who refuse to accept the so-called queer acceptance sweeping the world?

As a gay person, who has also suffered from depression whilst questioning, I had internalized societal prejudice against me. Neither I, nor any of my friends going through a similar thing, nor anyone who has taken their own life were to blame for that internalization, and respectfully that's not what I was implying. And for the second time, I wasn't engaging with the struggle for basic tolerance in developing or repressive societies, I was limiting the argument to one about mainstream America, and discussions of queer culture in modern lit. Hope this clears things up somewhat, and I respect you for your integrity.

Nicholas wrote: "...so does gay-lit have any polemical purpose anymore, considering (thouh there's much work still to be done) the culture war has largely been won?..."

I don't think we should ever forget in America or fail to remember the lessons of world history. Nor do I think the struggle is even close to over in the US for us, for women, for Jews for blacks... Things can change in a seeming instant. Consider the sudden change in the status of Gays before and after the Nazi's came to power. Of course this could NEVER happen in America, land of the free... Ask the Tea-Party. OTOH, it is Mankind's nature to forget the lessons of history and to ignore the distant future.

I think any minority who is much different from the norm will always need polemical literature.

OTOH, I agree that the Easy access to porn and trash romance is likely due in part to the elder's efforts and loosening of societal restrictions. These things have always been available, but not always easy. This may change suddenly if SOPA becomes law. It all may become hard again.

But, I am burned out on "works that 'give a voice' and articulate inner pain to isolated, disenfranchised queer people?" IE, just because one's Queer. I have read and experienced tons of it. I am interested in works that give voice to the struggles of 2 men or 2 women living together, to differences from the straight experience, etc. Competition can be a bitch in a LTR. Where is my support system when my partner of 35 years suddenly dies? I have found little literature about the struggles of Gays who have been in a relationship for 20 or 30 years or who are becoming elderly. The youth culture prevails.

I think it is very complex with lots of fodder for greatness.

Thanks, Nancy for your list. Some I have, but are unread. Others. I didn't know about. I read and loved Sprout and would add it to my list. Do read Willy if you haven't. I know you like horror too, esp. literary horror. I read it 9 months or so ago and keep thinking about it. I need to read it again, but there's some fear there.

From what I know of the current trend in British mainstream publishing the only voice that has an ear is the bottom line. It's unfortnuate but a reality.

Hopefully with the flush of self-pub and POD we'll see more literature for the sake of literature, regardless of how small the target audience may appear to be.

i'd also add the novels of Ethan Mordden

and Close to the Knives: A Memoir of Disintegration

I think in some ways, it is a difference of views of what "gay lit" actually is, or whether it's m/m fiction or gay fiction, a similar debate which I won't get it into. I think some books are inaccurately labelled gay literature based on the definition of what literature is, and instead it is another type of work.

The works with the naked torsos, steamy images or soulful eyed male suggestively gazing out from the cover seem to be most popular on places like Amazon. They catch the eye, and readers looking for what they suggest may understandably buy them...a lot, but personally if I am looking for good fiction with depth, complexity and characters and situations I feel to be authentic or important to me that might involve gay characters, I by-pass that look. I do admit that may not entirely be reflective of content or what label they've received. For example, just using Goodreads as an example, my work of a certain kind gets wrongly labelled m/m fairly often by readers when it is gay fiction or simply fiction that happens to have gay characters in it, and I promote it as that.

Some publishers of m/m specifically tell authors they will create and decide upon the cover image, so if you want to be published even if you don't agree with their interpretation of your work, they are in the market to sell books, and that look is what is "hot" for certain readers. Similarly, I had one publisher I do not work with anymore voluntarily who labelled my work as gay erotica. There is really very little sex in Night Shift and its more a contemporary drama that happens to involve a gay character. It was not in any way gay erotica and it was rated poorly by those who specifically said things like "not enough sex!" "this isn't gay fiction!" when I beg to differ. Nancy might second that. It is gay fiction, it is not m/m or gay erotica. @Kathryn, I would agree with that also. Sometimes it can be about advertising and marketing, authors/publishers themselves can also cause the issues, citing again my own example.

As @Steven said, and I fully agree with, one's work may contain sex, because that is a part of life like eating and drinking, but "it explores issues beyond sex". But just last week when working with a client of mine after I published one of her novels, I specifically asked her how she wanted it labelled and she said m/m fiction NOT gay fiction or literature, because to her gay fiction or literature meant tons of sex and m/m had a more "cosy" feeling and was just about the guys and not sex. I just blinked, but that's her choice, and reflects her experiences growing up in Wales, though it is directly opposite to me. Sure, I spent several years growing up in the 70s in the US, and if it was gay fiction, it was usually a gay sex book. Sure it was interesting for me, but I soon tired of it and wanted more and stopped reading anything in any such categories as it was so one-dimensional. And as @Kernos said, I switched to books that had gay situations or characters were not sub-labelled one way or the other, but was simply in their original genre: sci-fi, historical or literary fiction. I 've read some on his list.

Mainstream America. I suppose I wasn't in mainstream America when I lived and grew up there for a time, nor within the last years where being gay and certainly gay marriage is not supported where I was, although yes, you can go online to visit a gay community and validate yourself that way, if it is enough for you. But as a minority in the USA, it was more problematic in some ways also, that's just part of life.

I agree with another point by Kernos. When my first was first published, I got really deluged with writers and others who assumed I was a gay erotic writer, liked to read it, any and all of it, etc. but my work and my tastes in reading is to find literature with "the struggles of 2 men or 2 women living together, to differences from the straight experience, etc." It can be in a range of other genres, sci-fi, fantasy, historical or non-fiction are all my favorites. I've a manuscript right now on just that topic and have been told by a number of publishers who say they publish m/m and gay fiction, that it is very well-written but that's not what their readers are looking for. Their readers don't want the understanding of day to day life and struggles, but rather want something sexually exciting and unusual. I understand utterly the publisher's schedule and marketing perspective, however. Those are the wrong publishers for me, which why I created my quite small writer cooperative indie press.

One of the best contemporary books on daily life and realizations of love, which happened to be between two women, I thought was Lyndsay Stone's Awakening to Sunlight. Though I don't like all of their work, but it's usually based on the story itself, are those by Mel Keegan. Usually historicals or fantasy.

Another author and acquaintance I've recently found is Qwo-Li Driskill, as I like non-fiction works regarding GLBTIIQ. Some of their titles or contributions in anthologies:

Queer Indigenous Studies: Critical Interventions in Theory, Politics, and Literature
On The Road To Healing: An Anthology For Men Ending Sexism
Sexuality, Nationality, Indigeneity: Rethinking the State at the Intersection of Native American and Queer Studies

Or Håkan Lindquist's book My Brother and His Brother. He is a Swedish writer and his translated works are becoming more known.

Karin Lowachee's sci-fi trilogy with Warchild, Burndive and Cagebird is a very good one. The last book especially presents the development of a gay relationship in the most natural, realistic way I've read in many, many years.

Another author who has explored fluid sexuality, gender roles and intergenders in fantasy/sci-fi: M.A. Foster in The Transformer Trilogy and The Book of The Ler.

Sorry for such a long post, but not online regularly these days and had to get everything in at once ;-)

Kathryn wrote: "My advice is this: Don't type "gay fiction" into Amazon, you'll drown yourself in gay erotica (not a bad thing for some people).

The best thing you can do is find a small group of authors who writ..."

Wouldn't most of the best (non erotic) gay lit be featured on this group?

I did suggest that ;)

My point, which wasn't well made, was that if you want similar books to a gay lit book you enjoyed would be to look up that author on Amazon and see "Customers Also Bought..." for some similar books. I've used it with Julie Anne Peters and Nancy Garden to find books.

Another source for finding gay lit rather than gay romance or m/m is The Gay and Lesbian Worlwide Journal. They review gay lit and there are always some great articles as well. I highly recommend it. As for M/M romance vs. gay lit, may I suggest that just because the characters on the front cover of a gay novel have their clothes on doesn't mean they will remain that way once you open the book and start reading. It is possible for a writer to incorporate sex and romance into a heartfelt story with broader themes. I have nothing against M/M romance; it's just that too often it's someone else's fantasy.

Steven wrote: "I have nothing against M/M romance; it's just that too often it's someone else's fantasy. "

I would agree with that. Though also I think there is often times too much effort put in to attempting to guess a broad readerships fantasy and thats when things don't work out quite so well. The same themes are played out over and over with different names because it worked once.

It's the difference, I would say, between those that write for the joy of writing and those that write for financial top up to the day job.

I also have nothing against m/m romance, and its easy for people to misinterpret any less than totally supportive comment towards it as being negative but that's incorrect. For myself, I just don't happen to generally read it as the stories often do not appeal to me, as compared to gay fiction or literature designated as such, or just fiction with gay characters or situations. I know it doesn't mean unclothed, suggestive characters on the cover indicate the whole sum of the tale as sexual.

Casey wrote: "It's the difference, I would say, between those that write for the joy of writing and those that write for financial top up to the day job."

I think that's a very important observation, which I would agree with.

Steven wrote: "Another source for finding gay lit rather than gay romance or m/m is The Gay and Lesbian Worlwide Journal. They review gay lit and there are always some great articles as well. I highly recommend i..."

Link: http://www.glreview.com/

I suppose there will be all kinds of sparks and defensive protestation made, but little mention is made here of who primarily writes M/M "romance." It is women: mostly straight women. Is that bad? No. Is it wrong? No. The Front Runner was written by a woman. I happen to prefer books written by men if they are going to deal with male/male erotic attraction. I see the difference, although it is subtle. Should I ever really wish to write a book about lesbian lovers I would not want some self- appointed critic telling me "How would you know? You're a gay man." A story has no genitals; if its good it has only perception

I like this topic. I am not very fond of M/M romance either, mostly, because the ones I have tried had little character development, and the romance is forefront to the story, where I tend to like stories with more complex plots. I like reading about everyday gay characters, who are already secure about being gay, and going about life, or solving mysteries, or whatever.

I seem to remember that publishing in this area was much better in the 80's, there were several authors I liked, and they didn't have to be literary, just good stories... and then the m/m romance wave hit, and some of the authors I just don't see anymore. I wonder what happened?

My favorites now tend to be books for teens because they cover the emotional content quite well. When you are trying to locate new gay adult novels, it is hard to browse because there are so many M/m titles now, that is what pops up on any search and it is hard to deliniate to what you are really looking for.

It is sad, because I don't see many gay titles at the library anymore. The m/m stuff didn't circulate well and they don't seem to buy it and I am not sure what to look for that is new, but not necessarily literary.

I don't know about primarily, but I have certainly read a lot of m/m fiction written by females who seem to get it right. I've been curious about this as well as the Japanese YOAI phenomenon. Why do straight women, or Gay for that matter, like to read about m/m romance?

I, too see the difference but although it can be subtle sometimes, at others, it can be glaring. I certainly wasn't disputing your point Steven. And for me, just because one says they don't or only minimally read certain genres, it can be a basic lack of appeal in general. Just like I am Native American that it doesn't mean I want or should wish to read everything related to it, and it is not unusual if I reject a recommendation when someone assumes so. When I do go looking, story itself is the deciding factor, not whether the author is NA also, totally authentic in every detail, etc. How they research and treat the topics and situations, fiction or non-fiction is key. Same with the topic we've been discussing.

Also, women writers of gay or m/m fiction have penned some excellent works, stunning, some of which I love. Quoting one of my articles that was misunderstood by some though others fully agree: "It has been done well, and there are times it will continue to be done well."

Like m/m, I've known it and yaoi are written primarily for women by women. I watch a lot of anime and have read a lot of manga: yaoi, bishounen (lovely males), shounen-ai (suggestions of gay love or relationships)... just to clarify similar types are my favorites, but whatever the theme otherwise, whether comedy, drama or sci-fi and more, it has to have stories of depth, complex and some accuracy of emotions, relationships and sex details when dealing with homo or bisexuality. Those strictly about romance or in a romantic situation, even in yaoi, don't usually appeal to me personally. As someone said before, the idea of what is romantic can be very subjective.

Rather like I prefer Mirage of Blaze by Kuwabara Mizuna (桑原 水菜), a historical anime drama where the main attraction/obsession is between males, but it is also full of relevant Japanese history and complexity over devotion and duty. And found a title like Tarako Kotobuki's SEX PISTOLS 1 manga series developed into an anime that is supposedly to be representative of gays and relationship but is so inaccurate as to be nearly a parody.

Some like both or either, just the same. The more recent yaoi specific anime/manga I haven't liked very much as its become somewhat generic in my opinion or caters more towards sex primary theme lacking much of a coherent or good story. Like anything, you just have to wade through and find what you do like.

I just finished reading and reviewing M. Daniel Nickle's debut novel, The Dashing Mister R, and thought it was quite good.

There is a strong gay love story within it, but it is in no way a romance, but rather a mystery filled with dark fantasy set in contemporary New Orleans. The writing style rather reminded me of Rita Mae Brown, as Nickle's narrative is quite distinct.

You might give him a chance. http://flyingwithredhaircrow.wordpres...

Can I pose the question 'In gay literature, when does a sex scene become pornographic?'

In my rewrites for my publisher, I've spiced up two scenes but am trying to tread carefully and not go too far. Having said that, sex is generally accepted in literature.

I'm guessing that what Red said in the post above is probably the best barometer.

it would be hard for me to point out a particular line in the sand. i think a work - the entire work, not just a particular sex scene - flirts with pornography when the work itself is primarily about describing multiple sex scenes. if most of the work in question is basically just interested in describing sex, and not about much else. although i'm not sure i would say this equals "pornography" per se, it could also equal "erotica". and then what would the difference be between pornography and erotica?

there is something that bothers me about the idea that an extremely graphic sex scene equals porn. i don't believe that. i can't just look at the sex scene in question, i have to look at that scene's surrounding rationale, the context.

Thanks Mark, I feel a lot better about what you said. My novel is about unrequited love in the theatre district of the Afterlife. Three sex scenes in it will not make it Erotica. I'm relieved.