Catholic Readers discussion

what about LOTR and the Catholicity of Tolkien's writing? since he was a Catholic author, do we see Catholic symbolism in between the lines? or is the pagan fantasy world just too far away from the Christian civilization to call it a work of faith? do you think the characters would be open to faith, if they had lived in the day and age when the redeeming Gospel became present to the world?

I really doubt you'll find anyone criticising Tolkein from a Catholic perspective. It would be a first in my experience. :)

I watched a show on EWTN which re-enacted discussions between J.R.R. Tolkien and his friend C.S. Lewis...Tolkien was trying to convince Lewis that liking myths could lead to loving the truest Truth of the Bible stories. (Not exactly how he said it, that's in my own words). If there were elements of eternal natural moral truth in LOTR, still it certainly could not receive the thing that says it's free from doctrinal errors lol. Tolkien's "Sir Gawaian and the Green Knight" poem (not in LOTR) are more obviously related to real religion.

I found this blog...http://tolkienandchristianity.blogspo...
What articles are you reading from it, and what strikes you as being examples of hidden truths?

There's many articles & webpages on the idea that there are hidden Catholic Christian truths within the myths; for example, the essay by Peter Kreeft (from The Philosophy of Tolkien) made me wonder how to look at "pagan myths...as confused precursors of Christianity"...? Could this be accurate? In that case, if modern pagans today read LOTR, do you think they could be converted to Christianity, or would that be a long shot?

Ok someone explain to me -- the time period and location of middle earth - that is like way before the Old Testament and all that right? (They don't even have any prophets near them). I'm confused by the dates in the timeline from the Appendix of the Return of the King. So it is like a totally made up time and space right. I almost kinda hoped I could find their descendents over in New Zealand :( But that's just where it was filmed haha.

I like to imagine that of course if those characters could be real, that God must have been the Creator of them all...although some were created by the imagination of the author. Like in the Silmarillion...it's not exactly Genesis if you know what I mean.

Anyway, their "fellowship" didn't seem like a religious one. I don't recall any of them attempting to pray for guidance on their journey at any time? They did have that special bread for the journey though! I just was hoping that they could be redeemed, because I began to care about all of them! :D Like if a missionary could go back in time or leap into the pages to share the Good News with them...that'd be a fascinating plot for a spin on those tales...?

Ok, enough of my rambling. There's so much more that could be addressed, but I'm not an expert on this, and I tend to relate the Church with churches with tabernacles (not found in Middle-earth!) Someone else share!

Mich,

I think you won't find the textual clues to locate middle earth in a specific time and space. I don't think that's what Tolkein intended. There's some dressing up of LOTR as a translation from an older language (the hobbit names have been anglicanized, but the "real" names are mentioned in the appendix, I think.) However this should probably be understood as just providing atmosphere to a good story.

In another sense, middle earth should be understood as a romanticized (and much enlargened) England. I don't think it would be controversial to talk about LOTR as the epic poem of the British nation.

There isn't much praying in LOTR. The characters are not religious in that sense. However, we should understand that idea of "religiosity" as a dutiful response to God's _revelation_ of himself. Since these fictional people exist in a world without, or at least prior to, any Hebrew or Christian revelation, they have nothing around which to organize a dutiful response. I think part of the worldview Tolkein is expressing is that pre-revelation paganism is something wholly different from the rejection of God that is implied in modern "paganism". There's a kind of religiosity in the decency and goodness of the Shire -- a kind of devotion to what is true, good, and beautiful. They are, in a sense, the righteous old-world pagan awaiting God's revelation.

Tolkein himself said that when he read through the first draft he was struck by the Catholic underpinnings of the story. Not that the story was designed to be Catholic, but that his worldview as a Catholic was reflected within it. So when he was editing and rewriting, he punched up certain elements to be more reflective of that worldview ... such as the elven bread being able to sustain life with just a mouthful (like the Communion host). Read with that underpinning of worldview, then one can see that Catholicism peeking through. However, as others have said, it would be a mistake to look for a one-to-one correspondence between middle earth and our world or a religious message.

Yep Westron or Common Speech he says is translated from the language of those people so we can read it. ;-) My confusion with years is how it almost sounds like it's in the future: for example like 3020 (S.R. 1420) The Great Year of Plenty - Sept.22 Bilbo's hundred and thirtieth birthday. But it's a different age, with different imaginary people, places, and things.

Middle-earth still appears to be on our planet earth, which was created by our one true God - so I still wonder what they thought about Him, if they were seeking Him in any way, through seeing the beauty of creation leading to belief in a Creator, or a desire to have something greater to hope in and strength for their life's journey, giving them meaning, something special for Sam & Rosie to pass on to their 13 hobbitkins. etc.

Since God is omnipresent and omniscient and all that, I don't think that even the LOTR characters could escape Him if they really did exist, hypothetically. Ok it's like I wish I could get to see Eowyn, Arwen, Galadriel, etc. in heaven someday, crowning Our Lady with roses and all that, hanging out with Tolkien and his Catholic descendents. But I have to tell myself they are just made up. It's not real, it's only a story! :(.

"Not that the story was designed to be Catholic, but that his worldview as a Catholic was reflected within it." - yeah I agree.

I think alot of the Catholic outlook into the story has to do with the fact that Tolkien was Catholic - so we try to see it through his eyes - what was he thinking. Like "the elven bread being able to sustain life with just a mouthful (like the Communion host)" is one example - although since the Last Supper had not occured for them, their bread was not even symbolic of it; the key element of our Communion is that it is the real presence of Christ so that we can partake of his divine life - so I'm sorry that they're missing out on that. But elven bread still seems like a glimpse of Tolkien's experience of the Eucharist perhaps.

Whereas if LOTR had been written by a Wiccan instead, critics would probably look down more on the pagan/magic realm and see less of our Catholic world in it. For instance some Catholic circles put restriction against the reading of Harry Potter stories - but there's wizards and magic and darkness in LOTR too! And in The Wizard of Oz - but that's on the Vatican's top movie list! So I think we have to see that while it can be fun to let our imagination enjoy a made up story, that in reality we still need to practice our faith, and not magic. The fight between the powers of good and evil is very real on this earth.

If a missionary can't go back in time to convert the LOTR characters, I kinda wish that the LOTR characters could be transported to today and live the faith of the author. But there were many periods of human history before the revelation of the eternal Word through prophets and the Son. So since LOTR doesn't have an explicit religious message, its mythical themes are appealing to so many more readers - yet there still feels like a somewhat spiritual fellowship calls to the LOTR fans to unite us with the author's faith - I can't help thinking it :)

Mostly don't be too literal. Tolkien loved the "splinters of light" that other faiths and myth reflect of the true reality which the Catholic faith shows. To try to take any of this story as a literal reflection of this world or Catholicism is to push it beyond what was intended. Much of what is seen of the Catholic nature of the worldview was revealed by Tolkien in his letters, if I am not mistaken. :-)

Yeah various readers will see his LOTR in different ways - Catholic readers may see more Catholicism because we have Catholic eyes & hearts, & imaginations. :) Whereas in John 6 we can take the Bread of Life discourse literally, of course there isn't a teaching with elven bread...it is more simple and like a secret hint at what he knew in real life.

So while it may be pointless for me to try to pray the 4th day of Sr. Faustina's chaplet novena for LOTR characters: "those who do not believe in God (the pagans) and those who do not yet know Him" since probably God was not "thinking also of them..." (LOTR characters literally) "...during My bitter Passion, and their future zeal comforted my Heart." Since they are mythical characters in a mythical plot outside of his Redemption story, I guess it does not literally apply to them, as if book characters had souls. They are like shadows of real types of people in the world.

It's kinda neat to think that not only does Tolkien know God and the real true Bible stories, but God knows Tolkien and it's likely he knows what he wrote since God knows our hearts and all our words. (I wonder if God is pleased with Tolkien's Catholic intentions or lack thereof). Although God knows Tolkien, one of his creatures, he would be more concerned with having mercy on Tolkien and the readers rather than the literary characters hehe. So we can pray for all the LOTR readers to find Truth through Myth. :)

I read his letters too...he had faith for sure...he preferred the old Latin form and refused to switch!--he would say the Latin out loud while the new format was prayed hehe. However, he wrote advice to his son that women are monogamous but men just aren't -- well that's disheartening - maybe it's like Aragorn's relationship confusion. Tolkien is not the only author who makes me want to renounce men (afterall Faramir is not really out there and he was set on winning Eowyn's heart. All those elves have long beautiful hair, mine is just short simple hair. I could not be an elf I guess lol).

You should read "Leaf By Niggle." It's Tolkein's own reflection on (my best interpretation:) the meaning of his stories and their place in the real Universe.

I was about to post this about my sort of evangelist wish towards the middle-earth realm (really the "ends of the earth!") from Fides et Ratio. 70. "Because of its implications for both philosophy and theology, the question of the relationship with cultures calls for particular attention, which cannot however claim to be exhaustive. From the time the Gospel was first preached, the Church has known the process of encounter and engagement with cultures. Christ's mandate to his disciples to go out everywhere, “even to the ends of the earth” (Acts 1:8), in order to pass on the truth which he had revealed, led the Christian community to recognize from the first the universality of its message and the difficulties created by cultural differences. A passage of Saint Paul's letter to the Christians of Ephesus helps us to understand how the early community responded to the problem. The Apostle writes: “Now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the wall of hostility” (2:13-14). And they really need that Messianic peace, what with all that war of the ring trouble.

But now I see I must set upon reading Leaf By Niggle. It's a short story which is contained in my Tolkien Miscellany collection - already the beginning captivates my attention. Ok here I go!...I'll let you know what I think in a little bit. BRB

Ok, I'm done reading it. What a pretty little story. I would be good at "washing dishes in a communal kitchen or something" :D I wonder whatever happened to the houses that needed improvement?

if they did have Mass they'd have to offer it in Elven languages etc. ;-)

I'm a new member just checking out the treads here and wanted to say that I love Tolkien. I read all the books when I was a "tween" and was totally sold on Middle Earth...and I still am. :) (currently making sure that all my grandkids are sold on Tolkien's Middle Earth as well)