Fantasy Aficionados discussion

Does anyone know if there are any fantasy novels with Native American themes? I've read Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series, but that's more about an alternate version of America.

I think it's classified as young adult, but I read the book Bear Daughter a few years ago. The main character is the half-human daughter of the Bear God, and it uses the setting and belief systems of the Pacific Northwest. Neil Gaiman's American Gods uses some of them, but they are mixed in with a variety of others. I've never read them but I've heard the Mercy Thompson books have some Native American elements, as well.

Andre Norton wrote The Key of the Keplian. It's main character is Native American.

I enjoyed the Mercy Thompson books. She was a native american that could shift into a coyote.

Lyzzibug ~Still Breathing~ wrote: "I enjoyed the Mercy Thompson books. She was a native american that could shift into a coyote."

You're right! Mercy is Native American.

Good recommendations all. Thanks! But what I'm talking about are "traditional" sword and sorcery fantasies with Native American themes. For example, in the Dragonlance Chronicles we get the impression that the people Riverwind and Goldmoon come from are based on plains tribes such as the Apache. Are there any fantasy novels with those kinds of elements? Also, are there any "fantasy westerns" floating around?

While both swords and sorcery are used in The Key to the Keplian - and the Native American themes are prominent - I would not really consider it "traditional" S&S in the same way as I would David Gemmell's Drenai Series.

I can't say that I am aware of any traditional S&S with Native American themes.

MrsJoseph wrote: "While both swords and sorcery are used in The Key to the Keplian - and the Native American themes are prominent - I would not really consider it "traditional" S&S in the same way as I would David G..."

I read David Gemmell's Legend back when I was first getting into fantasy, but it's been so long that I can't recall the Native American elements to it.

I guess this might be a sub-genre of fantasy if anyone wants to try it!

lol! I'm so sorry! I wasn't saying that Gemmell's series had Native American elements, I was saying that I consider that style to be "traditional" S&S.

My bad! Tells you how long it's been since I've read it!

Urban fantasy, but I think that Skinwalker and Urban Shaman have Native American characters or elements.

I found a blog post where someone listed books with Native American elements - it's a mixed bag, but here you go: http://polenth.blogspot.com/2010/08/n...

Sacred Ground - also not S&S but is very focused on Native American culture. It
s really more UF.

The Haunted Mesa by Louis L'Amour has a lot of Native American culture. It's not a typical fantasy book, but I would place it soundly in the fantasy genre. It's definitely not a straight western like the rest of the stuff he writes.

Thank you everyone for your input. I haven't had much luck on my own in finding such books. This helps.

The main character in the series by Andre Norton that starts with The Beast Masteris Native American and the book although more sci-fi than fantasy, takes place on a planet with a western style world ... horses, grazing animals, old west attitudes.

I hesitate to mention it, because I think I might too often lol, but the Malazan books by Steven Erikson have some Native American themes. Especially in the second book Deadhouse Gates.

The Heart of a Fox

I enjoyed this book and wish there were more like it. Native American POV.

Has anyone read the Allyson James Stormwalker series?
First: Stormwalker; Second: Firewalker; Third: Shadow Walker. Just finished it and rather liked it. Interested in other comments about the series.

I've come to the conclusion that there aren't any "traditional" fantasy books with Native American themes. People have posted about urban or modern fantasy books, but this isn't what I'm looking for. If any authors are lurking out there, I think this is an area of fantasy novels that has been overlooked long enough.

David wrote: "I've come to the conclusion that there aren't any "traditional" fantasy books with Native American themes. People have posted about urban or modern fantasy books, but this isn't what I'm looking f..."

I'm confused. What do you mean by "Traditional" fantasy, then? The Andre Norton book I mentioned is "traditional" it's just not S&S.

Oh, also there is Spiritwalk but I am told there is a book prior. I haven't read it yet.

David, I'm a little puzzled--what exactly do you mean by "Native American theme?"

Sorry for the cunfusion. To me, traditional fantasies are those with a midieval or even Renaissance setting generally based on European history with low levels of technology (i.e. no guns, trains, cars, etc.). Examples would include The Lord of the Rings series, The Dragonlance Chronicles, A Song of Ice and Fire, Malazan Book of the Fallen, and the books by David Eddings (The Belgariad, The Mallorean, The Elenium, The Tamuli). It's more than just "swords and sorcery". It's the whole atmosphere and way of life.

As far as the Native American themes go, again I reference back to The Dragonlance Chronicles. The Que-Shu tribe that Riverwind and Goldmoon belong to is a good example of what I'm talking about. But primarily what I mean are books with a setting and society based on a pre-industrial American west versus a midieval or Renaissance Europe. Think Navajo, Ute, Apache, Cheyenne or any other Native American tribe, but where the magic is real. Sort of a combination of Tony Hillerman, James Doss, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Steven Erikson.

This is what I'm talking about when I say "traditional fantasy with Native American themes". Unfortunately most books that have Native American elements fall into the urban fantasy category that seems to be so popular today, in which everything is set in the modern day but where witches, vampires and werewolves are real. I'm just not interested in those.

I hopes this clarifies what I'm looking for. Again, I apologize if I confused anyone.

As I said, Andre Norton's The Key of the Keplian is that type of book. The book begins in a non-traditional environment but the primary setting (from chapt 2 onward) is set in "a midieval or even Renaissance setting generally based on European history with low levels of technology (i.e. no guns, trains, cars, etc.)."

Not to say that you need to read it but it is in the exact area you are looking for.

In that case, parts of Katherine Kerr's Deverry series (first is Daggerspell) might fit. The elvish people have been displaced from their ruined cities and have become plains nomads. They live in tents and raise horses, protecting their heritage by only selling geldings to outsiders. They play a major role in plot in setting, but more towards the fourth book onward, I think. Probably in respect to your interest, a significant portion of the rest of the continent is like medieval Europe in a feudal type culture. In later books, some of the subplots are based on cultural clash. She deals with reincarnation themes throughout the series, so I'm not sure I'd even say Renaissance Europe, but perhaps more pagan culture.

MrsJoseph wrote: "As I said, Andre Norton's The Key of the Keplian is that type of book. The book begins in a non-traditional environment but the primary setting (from chapt 2 onward) is set in "a mid..."

I'll give it a try.

And Carol, I'll look into Katherine Kerr's Deverry series as well.

Frank Herbert's The Soul Catcher (not listed on Goodreads!) is a great book. It takes place in contemporary times but has some mystic/magic aspects. A boy is kidnapped by a Native American to fulfill his vision quest. The novel has a gritty ending.

Forgive me if I'm totally off here, but this one I picked up recently (but haven't read yet) It Sleeps in Me by Kathleen O'Neal Gear sounds like it might sort of be NA-based fantasy. But, like I said, I haven't actually got to read it yet myself, so I could be way wrong :)

Have you read Zadayi Red by Caleb Fox ?
It is based on a Cherokee Myth.

Otherwise my all time favourite is Bear Daughter by Judith Berman.
The author is an anthropologist. Although she makes a point of saying that Bear Daughter is a fantasy novel and not an exact renditon of legends of a particular tribe, she nevertheless uses her experience and knowledge of the Nations of the Pacific West coast in her descriptions of the day to day life of the characters in her novel. It is a fantastic book! I gave it 5 stars.

Not sure if its been mentioned, but there is a strong element of Native Peoples culture/magic within the The Fionavar Tapestry trilogy by Guy Gavriel Kay. I think it was one of my favorite elements in the series!

Kit★ wrote: " It Sleeps in Me by Kathleen O'Neal Gear

Kit got there before me. This author and her husband have a rather large work to choose from, The First North Americans series (about 15 books) and the newer series, The People of the Longhouse (2 books so far). I haven't read them myself, but I hear good things about the newer books. The authors are anthropologists, so I don't know if these books will have the level of fantasy your looking for.

the only other series I can think of that comes close is Robin Hobbs
Shaman's Crossing which I began reading, but put down for some reason...I liked what I had read, but I do remember it being very....complex.

Marianne wrote: "Just a thought: I wonder if writing Native American characters for a non-native American is a taboo and/or disrespectful, and that is why we do not see more Native American characters even in fiction..."

I don't really think so but I do think that most non-Native American writers don't really get it right. I grew up and spent a lot of my adult life living near two reservations and have known a lot of Crow and Cheyenne people.

The Native Americans themselves seem to react to Native American characters/themes much like modern westerners react to books written by non-westerners in a modern west setting ... with amusement and/or derision. People who have not either grown up in that culture or who have been totally involved for years in it simply do not get it right.

Most readers don't understand the people or the culture so don't realize it isn't correct, those that do are generally either amused or annoyed. It isn't considered taboo or disrespectful as it is generally too far off reality to be either of those things.

Any minority group will take offence when an outsider writes inaccurately about their culture. Sharon expressed it well. If you are going to write about a culture that is not your own, then you really have to know it well.
My favourite novels with Native Americans as the main characters were also written by Native Americans for example The Grass Dancer by Susan Power.
Judith Berman the author of Bear Daughter is not First Nation, however as an anthropologist, she spent years studying the various nations of the Pacific Northwest. On her site she maintains that Bear Daughter is a fantasy novel that uses an alternative world resembling the pre-Columbian Pacific Northwest as a backdrop for her story. She was not happy about the cover because it makes it seems like the novel is an actual Native American story.
The OP was talking about using Native American themes as an inspiration not as an accurate portrayal. That is different all together.

David wrote: "Sorry for the cunfusion. To me, traditional fantasies are those with a midieval or even Renaissance setting generally based on European history with low levels of technology (i.e. no guns, trains,..."

As you say, the 'traditional fantasies' you are talking about are inherently based on European culture. Therefore a book based on themes from a completely different culture will be unlikely to work in this type of setting... an S&S book is as much dependent on the faux-medieval life (taverns, city watch, military chains of command etc) as it is of elements such dragons, hero's and magic.

I think that any fantasy based on Native American culture will therefore not fit into the definition you are using for S&S. Likewise, off the top of my head I can't think of many S&S type books based on non-European or Islamic cultures.

Well.... If I am understanding correctly.....
I always thought Jennifer Roberson's series Shapechangers, had some similarities to Native Americans. It's a totally different world with swords and sorcery.

Word of warning, it's a long series. It also looses the feel in later books.

Everflame by Dylan Lee Peters sort of fits the category.

It's not *exactly* "medieval", but it's something similar, and definitely has the Native American vs western culture aspect going for it.

Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series is medieval based fantasy and she has the Shin'a'in people- obviously inspired by NA plains tribes and the Tayledras people inspired by South American tribes. They aren't the focus in most of the books but Winds of Fate and Owlflight(both starts of trilogies) are set among the Tayledras, and in The Oathbound (a series of short stories) one of the main characters is Shin'a'in. Tayledras characters show up in a couple other of the books as well.

Claire, would you recommend reading other books in he Valdemar world before starting the Owl Mage trilogy?

Janice wrote: "Claire, would you recommend reading other books in he Valdemar world before starting the Owl Mage trilogy?"

It is possible to start at Owlflight since it's not set in the main kingdom and has entirely new characters, and from the reviews quite a few people did start there. A lot of older fans don't think they're her strongest books though.

For Winds of Fate I would recommend people to start with Exile's Honor or Take a Thief and then follow the timeline, since there are a lot of characters who are introduced in these previous books. But it's not really necessary; you could start with Winds of Fate and be fine.
Here's a timeline http://www.angelfire.com/pa5/valdemar... (Not totally up to date, but the closest one I could find)

Generally, except for Storm Rising Trilogy, the trilogies and single books stand on their own pretty well, and when there are gaps in the timeline generally indicates there's going to be entirely new characters, so there's a bunch of different books you could start with.

I think The Oathbounddoes stand up completely on it's own, it's not set in the main kingdom and barely even mentions it

Thanks Claire. That's very helpful.