You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

Almeta and I will be reading The Water Babies by Charles Kingsley during the Feb 5-11 Classics Toppler. We invite others to join us!

I will if ILL fills my (newly-formed) request in time.

Looking forward to seeing what time has done to my perception of one of my younger days favorites.

Comments on The Water Babies

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "I will if ILL fills my (newly-formed) request in time."

Hope you can!

Almeta wrote: "Looking forward to seeing what time has done to my perception of one of my younger days favorites.

Comments on The Water Babies"

Read your comments. I feel that way about Gone With the Wind, especially the movie. I just loved the story as a child, but as an adult I started feeling ashamed to say it was my favorite movie.

I rarely notice hidden meanings to stories. Guess I'm naive that way.

Is being beaten and being thrown in jail such a common occurrence that a person is grateful to his master” and the lord of the realm for delivering the “well deserved punishment?

How old is this chimney sweep? I thought he was just a child, but he says he’s been in jail a of couple of times. Did this happen to children?

Or is Kingsley just scaring his children?

I imagined the chimney sweep as around 10-12 years old. I guess he could have been in jail in those days for stealing and such. I think that is unfortunate, but true.

Hard to imagine being beaten every day. What a horrible life.

I thought it was very funny (as I'm sure Kingsley intended) how everyone who chased after Tom got hurt or damaged something in the process. Very fun chase!

Debra wrote: "I imagined the chimney sweep as around 10-12 years old. I guess he could have been in jail in those days for stealing and such. ..."

It finally came up somewhere that he is ten years old. Good guess!

Debra wrote: "I thought it was very funny (as I'm sure Kingsley intended) how everyone who chased after Tom got hurt or damaged something in the process. Very fun chase! ..."

You took the words, right out of my mouth!!! Even the birds gave chase!!!

Wasn't it interesting that Tom didn't recognize the iconic artwork of the "kind man surrounded by little children" or "the man hanging on the cross"?

In the Occidental view, even those who are not particularly Christian based in their beliefs would have been aware of this imagery.

Kingsley is pointing out that not everyone has been exposed to those images nor do they have an understanding of their implication. (Of course he seems to be equating this ignorance with heathens; which of course, he does not want his four year old son to become.)

Starting Chapter II, I want to know why the Irishwoman is following Tom. She is not in pursuit like the others, or she would have caught him by now. She just hangs back and follows.

He was sooo dirty...How dirty was he?

Well he was sooo dirty, that as he climbed down the cliffs, his perspiration washed him off, leaving traces of black soot on the landscape, which can still be seen to this day; and the descendants of the beetle he touched are still born black as well.

Now that's dirty!☻

Ok I'm here. The dame who tried to rescue him is dead, Sir John is mourning, and we're about to rejoin the wee one.

I'm liking the writing style - in between the sappiness there's some bits that are clever. "Am I in earnest? Oh dear no! ... you are not to believe one word of it, even if it is actually true..."

I'm liking the edition I was loaned, too. Oversize, big font, bright glossy pictures.

Almeta, I bet you know the answer to your question in 11 now.

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Almeta, I bet you know the answer to your question in 11 now. ..."

Yes, I have my answer.☺ I knew it would come, but of course wasn't expecting the answer given!

You say of course? I had a vibe she would be some sort of immortal in earthly disguise. I mean, not because I'm smart, but because that's what these old stories were full of. It reminds me a lot, for example, of The Princess and Curdie and other stories by George MacDonald.

Anyways, I'm done now, so we can talk without fear of spoilers for me.

Almeta, I also made note how Tom had never been exposed to Christianity and its images of Christ and such. Hard to imagine that as the cases these days in modern civilizations, but I'm sure it happens.

Yep, Tom was purty durn dirty! I had also made a note to point out how he changed blue beetles into black ones because he rolled over them.

Did we ever find out really why the "Irishwoman" was following Tom specifically. As queen of the fairies, did she know he was going to die? Why did Kingsley make a sympathetic character Irish, when he and his countrymen seemed to have so much disdain for the Irish?

Kingsley says something about first instincts which struck me as usually true: "first thoughts are best, and a body's heart'll guide them right, if they will but hearken to it!" Stick with that gut instinct!

Gotta look some of the words up. What is the "Cocqcigrues, when man shall be the measure of all things?"

Nice to see you joining us, Cheryl! What did you think?

I liked it much more than I thought I would.

I took the Irishwoman 'disguise' to be chosen by the fairy as one that would fit the situation. But also, I think one could argue that Kingsley himself was arguing for more compassion and more harmony.

Boy, color me naive. I never thought about Tom actually dying. I mean, I accepted the fairy story at face value. So, is the whole thing allegory?

Cocqcigrues - a French word for monsters, so the full context, 'the coming of the Cocqcigrues,' is important.

Or a little more digging

1: " `That is one of the seven things,' said the fairy Bedonebyasyoudid, `I am forbidden to tell till the coming of the Cocqcigrues.' "- C. Kingsley: The Water Babies, chap. vi.
2: Cocqcigrues At the coming of the Cocqcigrues. That good time coming, when every mystery shall be cleared up.
Source: Brewer's Dictionary.

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "...I had a vibe she would be some sort of immortal in earthly disguise. ..."

I expected her to be a gypsy fortune teller (view spoiler)[ with prophetic accuracy (hide spoiler)] or maybe even a witch (view spoiler)[ with potent spells. I wasn't expecting Queen of the Fairies! (hide spoiler)]

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Boy, color me naive. I never thought about Tom actually dying. I mean, I accepted the fairy story at face value. So, is the whole thing allegory? ..."

I had the vague thought, when he cracked his head on the wall that he might be seeing all this in a coma induced dream. Even dying was a brief thought, that he concussed and drowned. But the adventures were so engaging and inventive that I never revisited that idea.

Debra wrote: "Gotta look some of the words up. What is the "Cocqcigrues, when man shall be the measure of all things?" ..."

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Cocqcigrues - a French word for monsters, so the full context, 'the coming of the Cocqcigrues,' is important.

The Water Babies may be a story to be told to a four year old, however I ccan't even imagine a ten year old reading and understanding all of the words.

I, in fact, read this as a youngster and consider it one of my childhood favorites, but I must have skipped the big words, like Cocqcigrues and polyanthus.

How about the phrase "perotid region of his fauces". Huh?

What's a "great withy pollard"? (view spoiler)[withy-"a strong flexible willow stem" -wiki (hide spoiler)] (view spoiler)[pollard - "A tree whose top branches have been cut back to the trunk so that it may produce a dense growth of new shoots." eFreeDictionary (hide spoiler)]

This one you might know, but I didn't: eft. (view spoiler)[Eft, the terrestrial juvenile phase of a newt
- wiki (hide spoiler)]

I probably just looked at the pictures. ☻

How about "Chris Cross Row"? This is something a child of the eighteen hundreds would know, but not me.

I thought it might be a game like "Hop Scotch". Nope.

I haven't quite gotten the full picture but apparently it was like an ABC primer in which alphabetic and numeric figures were arranged in the shape of a cross.

Anyone else ever hear of it?

Kinsley made reference to a Professor Owen and Professor Huxley.

In investigating these two gentlemen, I am assuming that he meant:

Sir Richard Owen, an English biologist, comparative anatomist and paleontologist; best known today as the man who coined the concept of dinosuria (terrible reptile) -wiki.

and

Thomas Henry Huxley, an English biologist, known as "Darwin's Bulldog" for his advocacy of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. -wiki.

He also referenced The Linnean Society. The Linnean Society of London aims to promote the study of all aspects of the biological sciences, with particular emphasis on evolution, taxonomy, biodiversity and sustainability.

August company for a four year old.

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "So, is the whole thing allegory? ..."


What I believe was designed to be an allegory for his son, was also a treatise of progressive thoughts of the day.

I am so pleased to have re-read this book. I was afraid that I would come to dislike it because of the criticism it receives for prejudices and moralizing. I think this aspect of the book is a good reflection of nineteenth century philosophical thought. However, Kingsley's scientific references make me believe that he was a progressive thinker for his time.

My rating still stands at five stars!

"The most wonderful and the strongest things in the world, you know, are just the things which no one can see."

I took lots of notes during this read. There are so many good little moral lessons to reflect upon. I wonder how this little boy actually turned out when he became a man?

I could't just write them all down. It would be like writing the book over again in long-hand.

Guess I'll just have to read it again.

I think I would probably have liked Kingsley as my father and would have wanted to do him proud.

I think the big words etc. are meant, in part, to encourage re-reading as the child grows. I agree that more can be appreciated each time one reads it.

Also, Kingsley doesn't talk down to child readers. Sure he says stuff like 'on his dear little bottom' but he also has the scientific references etc. as you note.

Btw, I knew Huxley and eft. The others I didn't. :)