The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Five thread for the next Presidential Series selection (John Quincy Adams).

The week's reading assignment is:

Week Five - February 6th - February 12th -> FIVE p. 107 - 132

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library. Bryan's edition is ISBN: 0679404449 (hardcover)

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be your moderator for this selection as he is our lead for all Presidential selections. We hope you enjoy Week Five of this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

by Paul C. Nagel

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Five

We see JQA heading to Berlin instead of Lisbon, so he remained in London until he got his orders. He married Louisa on July 26, 1797 at the All Hallows Barking Anglican Church. JQA remained upset, however, because he knew his father-in-law was not rich and he now had to pay for a wife. He also was unsettled by the fact that his father, the president, was helping his career along. Yet, he loved married life. They had a month-long celebration with a large ball and he discovered they got along quite well. By October, they went to Berlin. JQA liked the Prussian ministers and he went to work on renewing the trade treaty between the two countries.

Louisa had some very difficult moments with a number of miscarriages and getting ill. JQA wanted to be an author and started to work on his German and begin to translate some German literature. He reported back the events going on in France as the Directory was still waging war with England, and he predicted that a military dictatorship would come. The two did travel in Germany and they loved Dresden, one of Europe's cultural landmarks. He wrote a travel diary while visiting Silesia.

Once they got back to Berlin, his son, George Washington Adams, was born. He got news from home that his father's presidency was not going well as John Adams was fighting to keep the U.S. neutral in the war, which was fracturing the Federalist Party. With Thomas Jefferson (TJ) about to become president, JQA was recalled by his father to save the humiliation of his nemesis, TJ, from doing it.

With the family back in the states, JQA had to decide on a career. He agreed to return to the law. Louisa finally met her in-laws and it did not go very well. Louisa was racked by apprehension and she was tired after the long trips. John Adams liked her, but Abigail was cool. Once in Boston, however, the couple settled into a nice life, although money was tight. JQA thought of moving to central New York, but Abigail killed the idea. At the end of the chapter, we see JQA considering politics, although he wanted to rise above the bitter factions and do this on principle.

All Hallows Barking Anglican Church:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Hall...

We are seeing a pattern here: JQA is upset over his father's influence, he tells father or about to tell father that he wants to do his own thing, and ends up doing what his father wants him to do. I suspect it adds to his misery of not having a wealthy wife.

However, I am happy to read he enjoys marriage life.

Frederick William III:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic...

The way Louisa braved through these multiple miscarriages strikes me as remarkable. In spite of JQA's occasional wrong-headedness on marital matters and his lack of a clear, sustained career path, Louisa seemed to have taken the miscarraiges in stride and there's hardly a thought given that their union might be childless.

Lots of things learned

Louisa is a fighter - worker - doing what she must - courageous - multiple miscarriages.

JQA & Louisa seem to be a great couple - both seemingly initially more concerned with the wealth that can come with marriage (more JQA than Louisa) than I think is common today but I do get the feeling they are really also a romance.

The note that Washington found JQA's reports so valuable and the reception he seems to have gotten from the Germans override the image that all he did was to walk, read, and write etc. in a personal nature. He must have been really brilliant to have accomplished all this and to have written copies of it all.

The distribution/ reproduction of his Silesia work is also a direct validation of the quality of his work. In this century he would have been able to retire by insisting on royalties I think.

He seems thought however to have lived a good life as an "ex-patriot" with lots of free time and no supervision and a generous "expense account". His unhappiness at having to go back to work as a lawyer and to have to go to the court and look for clients (customers are the Bain of a private enterprise) seems to indicate how easy and free his life had been.

His search for religion is interesting. Like many of the founding fathers he seems to have been not very Christian. He could never be elected this year.

I think that his loyalty to his father at having lost re-election illustrates his respect for his dad. An indication of the bond they build when they were together previously in Europe.

I think the recall of JQA by his father after Jefferson was elected, especially if one believes JQA did a good job, was pretty petty and not so patriotic of the second president. It portends the coming decades of disaffection between John Adams & Thomas Jefferson. This is a bit reinforced by the less than perfect visit of JQA with the new president.

It does seem that Abigail was the matriarch of the family and she imposed her will where she thought she could.

My last comment is that he seems to have stashed away a lot of money during his European years while he had lots of dinners and dances and walks etc. Notwithstanding the miscarriages his life was probably pretty good so far.

FrankH wrote: "The way Louisa braved through these multiple miscarriages strikes me as remarkable. In spite of JQA's occasional wrong-headedness on marital matters and his lack of a clear, sustained career path, ..."

I totally agree, Frank and Vince. Wow, she was a strong woman to withstand so many miscarriages, and then try again and again. You wonder what undiagnosed medical issue Louisa had.

GW Adams must have been quite a sight to behold.

Vince wrote: "The note that Washington found JQA's reports so valuable and the reception he seems to have gotten from the Germans override the image that all he did was to walk, read, and write etc. in a personal nature. He must have been really brilliant to have accomplished all this and to have written copies of it all."

I think we are beginning to appreciate all of JQA's efforts to inform the U.S. leaders on what was going in Europe. The author mentions this earlier, but I agree, I think his diary and dispatches were huge.

Information on John Tillotson:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tillots...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Til...

The author suggests his works as less dogmatic. I think that does fit in the Founding Father's mindset as Vince indicates.

Vince wrote: "I think the recall of JQA by his father after Jefferson was elected, especially if one believes JQA did a good job, was pretty petty and not so patriotic of the second president. It portends the coming decades of disaffection between John Adams & Thomas Jefferson. This is a bit reinforced by the less than perfect visit of JQA with the new president."

I was a little surprised at first about this, too. I guess I understand why he did it, although the odds were pretty good TJ might recall him, it was not a guarantee. The election created a lot of bitterness. The two men stopped writing and talking for years because of their partisanship.

Here is his travel diary:

John Quincy Adams

I had to look up where Silesia was:

It is a historical region of Central Europe located mostly in Poland, with smaller parts also in the Czech Republic, and Germany.

Silesia is rich in mineral and natural resources, and includes several important industrial areas. Silesia's largest city and historical capital is Wrocław. Other large cities are Opole and Katowice in Poland, Ostrava and Opava in the Czech Republic, and Görlitz in Germany. Its main river is the Oder.
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia)

We see his interest in literature and translation blossoming in this time.

Does anyone know what would hook JQA into German literature? I have read a few of the later 19th century figures, but I was curios if anyone had some insights.

Here is a snapshot of what JQA's father was dealing with in the last couple of years in office. We do see this bond between father and son when JQA defends his father's policies. Some did not think it was the wise course. History proved other-wise:

The result was Jay's Treaty, signed in 1794. The treaty improved U.S.-British relations. France, interpreting the treaty as a newly formed alliance between the United States and an old enemy, retaliated by ordering the seizure of American ships carrying British goods. This plunged Adams into a foreign crisis that lasted for the duration of his administration. At first, Adams tried diplomacy by sending three commissioners to Paris to negotiate a settlement. However, Prime Minister Charles Maurice de Talleyrand of France insulted the American diplomats by first refusing to officially receive them. He then demanded a $250,000 personal bribe and a $10 million loan for his financially strapped country before he would begin peace negotiations. This episode, known as the XYZ affair, sparked a white-hot reaction within the United States.

Adams responded by asking Congress to appropriate funds for defensive measures. These included the augmentation of the Navy, improvement of coastal defensives, the creation of a provisional army, and authority for the President to summon up to 80,000 militiamen to active duty. Congress passed the Alien and Sedition Acts to curb dissent, created the Navy Department, organized the Marine Corps, and cancelled the treaties of alliance and commerce with France that had been negotiated during the War of Independence. Incidents, some bloody, soon took place on the high seas. Historians call this undeclared war the Quasi-War crisis. Some Americans who hated the French Revolution, especially the Anglophiles within the United States, hoped for war to save Great Britain and destroy the revolutionaries in France. From the outset, however, President Adams sought a peaceful solution, if it could be had on honorable terms for the United States. He talked pugnaciously and urged a military buildup, but his goal was to demonstrate American resolve and, he hoped, bring France to the bargaining table. During the fall of 1798 and the winter of 1799, he received intelligence indicating a French willingness to talk. When Talleyrand sent unofficial word that American diplomats would be received by the French government, Adams announced his intention to send another diplomatic commission to France. By the time the commissioners reached Paris late in 1799, Napoleon Bonaparte had become the head of the French government. After several weeks of negotiation, the American envoys and Napoleon signed the Treaty of Mortefontaine, which released the United States from its Revolutionary War alliance with France and brought an end to the Quasi-War. Adams subsequently said that the honorable peace he had arranged was the great jewel in his crown after nearly twenty-five years of public service.
(Source: http://millercenter.org/president/ada...)

Bryan wrote: "Here is his travel diary:

John Quincy Adams

I had to look up where Silesia was:

It is a historical re..."


Hey Brian - me too - I had to look up Silesia

Glad to be in good company........

Lol, it makes sense it was part of Poland, this country was carved up so many times, you lose count.

I laughed when JQA mentioned that President Jefferson told "tall tales." I didn't know that about him. TJ has this scientist image, but when it came to mealtime, he seemed to enjoy the small talk and maybe getting a reaction from people when he shared these tales. I wonder if JQA called him out on it?

Another observation: boy, I would not want to be in Louisa's shoes to meet Abigail, her mother-in-law face to face. It seemed Louisa was not in the best moments: tired, sick, etc. Yikes.

Brian, meeting the formidable mother in law face to face must have been trying.

Bentley wrote: "Brian, meeting the formidable mother in law face to face must have been trying."

I totally agree. And you wonder what JQA was saying to Louisa about Abigail, probably giving her the good and bad. Also, Abigail in her own right was a respected person, so that adds to the pressure. You are meeting a First Lady and a strong personality. Whew.

And one who had designs and aspirations for her son and you (Louisa) might not be or have been one of them.

Bentley wrote: "Brian, meeting the formidable mother in law face to face must have been trying."

Fortunately for Louisa all of Abigail's badgering was through written correspondence. It would be years before they met face to face.

It wasn't until 1804 that Abigail was agreeable to her. Over the years Abigail sent letters to her daughter-in-law and instructed her on how to take care of her son’s health (his digestion, slumber and apparel). Louisa responded back maturely and enthusiastically. Later Louisa tried to coax her husband to ride horseback with her which she felt would benefit both his health and their marriage. But JQA disregarded it. In Dec. of 1804, Louisa purchased a horse for her husband and problem solved. Abigail was pleased with Louisa that she took the initiative and was able to change his mind.

Carol, great post. It looks like Louisa was a chip off the old block even though Abigail and Louisa were not related aside from marriage. They say that a man tends to look for someone like their mother.

Louisa knew how to manage Abigail and her husband. Great gal.

Did JQA really want to marry Louisa? I think his behavior indicated otherwise.

JQA’s first love was Mary Frazier, an educated young lady from Boston, but as a beginning lawyer he didn’t have the means to support a family. Abigail knew that JQA had strong feelings for her so she urged her husband (then Vice President) to arrange a diplomatic service, ending his relationship to Frazier. President Washington sent him to Holland in 1794. JQA said that thereafter he would keep his heart to himself and never marry. I don’t think her ever forgave his mother for this.

In 1795 at the Johnson residence in London, JQA enjoyed the company of young ladies especially Louisa. (He was certainly not going to write home about this relationship.) They became engaged quickly (only after 4 months) and he returned to The Hague and didn’t return until 13 months later where he came to see her in the afternoon of his second day in town. Louisa expressed her feelings of being "humiliated." It seems that JQA kept trying to prolong the engagement.

As soon as Abigail learned that JQA and Louisa were engaged, she began to point out her shortcomings -- "not an American, her family brought her up differently from our family, Louisa had a very different temperament from JQA, plus she would be too spoiled for life in the US". . . . But JQA was determined to marry the woman of his choice.

Then Washington switched JQA diplomat’s assignment to Portugal (higher pay) and since Abigail did not want her son to live in Lisbon unmarried, she consented. Louisa’s father stepped in and convinced (forced?) him to marry his daughter in 1797. He also was able to supply a way for the two of them to travel on a ship to Lisbon.

Abigail learned of their wedding after reading it in the newspaper. She made it known that she was disappointed --she felt that " JQA blundered badly in his choice for a wife" and "the Johnson family was an embarrassment to the Adams family."

by Paul C. Nagel

I think he did love her and did want to marry but was commitment phobic. And I am not sure about Mary Frazier.

As far as Abigail, I doubt that anybody would have been good enough for her son.

Very interesting tidbits and facts Carol which add a lot.

Thanks, Carol; on the surface, he seemed to be skittish, but I think it wasn't because he didn't love her, but he struggled with giving up his life that he loved.

Thanks for the info on Abigail and Louisa. It seems that they bonded a little better through letters than the book indicates.

I am enjoying all of your comments, there is one thing in this chapter that barely gets a mention is the death of JQA's brother Charles. On page 127 it is mentioned in part of a sentence. It just kind of surprised me that something as important as the death of his brother barely gets a sentence. I know he died of alcoholism and was disowned by his father John Adams. I just thought I would point it out. I am really enjoying the book otherwise.

Yes, indeed, Tim, thanks for bringing his up. I have a brief biography on him in our glossary section:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

He seemed to be everything Abigail fears would happen to her children. You have to figure JQA had some reaction, but maybe he did not write it down. Does anyone have any thoughts what JQA's reactions might would be beyond the loss of a brother?