Master & Commander discussion

I think Patrick O'Brian is a writer of surprising virtuosity, especially in the way he handles narrative summary and the passage of time. Check out this breakdown: http://bit.ly/wbZtxr

I remember stopping short the first time i encountered one of these jumps. A little puzzled, i continued reading and just accepted that O'Brian had moved on to the next interesting part of the story and i was thankful that there was no filler to get me from A to B. The author and I were now at point B and we could go on from that point. I like it. Surprisingly effective in conveying the passage of time.

I'm glad someone else noticed it! Although I guess the point is, from the author's perspective, for the reader NOT to notice it.

Hi Tim,
Tastes vary, but I think Bernard Cornwell is a great writer of historical fiction. His Richard Sharpe series covers some of the same time period as O'Brian's books but the action takes place mostly on land. Great if you enjoy military historical fiction.
I am also really enjoying his Saxon series.
http://www.bernardcornwell.net/

I would definitely recommend Nordhoff and Hall, the authors of the three Mutiny books. How I wish there were more that they had written (besides the High Barbaree). There is also the Hornblower series by C.S. Forester,also excellent. Authors like O'Brian are way too few.

Funny coincidence, I just started reading Cornwell's Sharpe's Rifles! I can see why people like it. It doesn't have the lavish beauty of the O'Brian books -- it's more workmanlike -- but he certainly knows how to tell a story. I'll review it when I'm done, and maybe post something on the blog (http://bit.ly/wbZtxr) if I find something interesting to break down from a craft analysis perspective.

I've read Pale Horseman, and I liked that too. I've also read the Hornblower series, which is wonderful. But in my view none of them match O'Brian for the richness of his descriptive panoply, the beauty of his prose, and the complexity & inspiring humaneness of his characters.

I like Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe's series too, but it does not compare to the richness, word-lusciousness and depth of characters of an O'Brian. Richard Sharpe always gets the girl, gets beat up, and gets the gold. I am also reading the Hornblower novels, but again, not an O'Brian. I am hoping someone recommends someone of his caliber, because I just finished re-reading all 20 Aubrey-Maturins and the unfinished 21st and am missing my favorite escape.

Before O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series, I would have bet anything that nothing could drag me on board a ship of the line of any era to be subjected to blood and guts naval battles. But O'Brian brings so much more to historical naval life that I became absolutely enthralled to the characters, the time, the place... even the rollicking naval battles. BTW, the audio version with Paqtrick Tull is outstanding and brings the whole story to life to add a wonderful dimension.

Oddly, O'Brian's beautiful work opened an unusual door for me so that I snapped up a fantasy series "Temeraire" billed as "Master and Commander meets Dragon Riders of Pern." Obviously, nothing quite compares to Aubrey/Maturin, but Naomi Novik does an astonishingly good job with this alternate Napoleonic era history that inserts a dragon air corpe into the war. It was great fun.

I haven't found anything that comes close to A/M in historical fiction; I wish I could. I will give the Sharp series a try.

I think O'Brian is a superb writer-there's real depth there and the stories are great.
George Macdonald Fraser is my other fave historical fiction writer.

Dorothy Dunnett!! :) For 18/19th century seafaring there is CS Forester, Alexander Pope, Alexander Kent (the last two much lighter reading and Alexander Kent also writes as Douglas Reeman about WW2 seafaring). It always staggers me when reading O'Brian that he was not actually writing in the era he writes about. He writes with so much knowledge and in such a beautiful old world style...

You're right about Dorothy Dunnett. Her work is wonderfully rich. Also Sharon Kay Penman!

A very different period, but Mary Renault's novels are wonderful (and I believe she and O'Brian were friends; if I remember correctly, one of his books is dedicated to her).

Abolutely right. The King Must Die is one of my all time favorite novels. Thanks for reminding me!

A vote for Mary Renault from me too- her Alexander trilogy is just brilliant- what was the name of that Italian author who tried to do the same...Massamo? Anyway he just isn't in the same league as MR in my opinion?

I like Cornwell immensely and the Sharpe series is one of my favourites. I have found the Saxon series to be pretty poor by his standards though. It seems very much to be a rewriting of his Warlord trilogy concerning Arthur, which is by far my favourite of Cornwell's works. Uhtred in particular seems a less likeable version of Derfel. Azincourt is also an excellent novel.

Conn Iggulden's Mongol series is very good but for a slightly alternate take on history, I believe that no-one writes as well as Guy Gavriel Kay in The Sarantine Mosaic or The Lions of Al-Rassan.

I don't know of another writer as good as O'Brian was. He died with another Aubrey story unfinished.

I've very much enjoyed (as well as Hornblower and Sharpe) the following, just off the top of my head:

Iggulden's Mongol series is indeed fab. I'm nearing the end of the very last one, and will be sad to see it go.

Simon Scarrow's Roman soldiers Macro and Cato feature in a series very much in the same mould as Sharpe. In terms of, as someone else said a well told but perhaps "workmanlike" set of stories.

Allan Mallinson's got a great series about a Napoleonic-era cavalryman called Matthew Hervey. It's a little closer to O'Brian in style, but not quite of the same quality. Very well worth a look, though. I overdosed on them when I found them, but have a couple to go back to, which I now fancy trying...

Sergeant Jack Tanner is another British "Sharpe"-alike, in James Holland's world war II series. Perhaps the weakest of all my recommendations here, but I enjoyed them. And am waiting for the next one.

Strangely, I gave up on Iggulden's own Roman series, despite absolutely loving the Mongol one.

I've also hunted far and wide for an author comparable to O'Brian, but have had to resort to simply re-reading O'Brian every now and then before I return to inferior historical fiction.

Dewey Lambdin's Alan Lewrie series from the same era is also very well researched. It has a greater "argh me hearties" air, as well as much more of the humpin' and thumpin' aspect that was also part of the time. His understanding of the details of how a fully rigged ship works is outstanding. Bernard Cornwell once wrote of the Lambdin books "I wish I had written this series."

If you like your historical fiction funny as well as highly accurate and factual, check out the Flashman series by George MacDonald Fraser. A brilliant series of books that will give you a great read, a lot of laughs and when you've finished you'll have a great overview of some great event in history

Also seconding Sharon Kay Penman

Agree re Flashman. For those who want some Rogering with their history!

Greg-you're a man after my own heart- George Macdonald Fraser was a fantastic writer and the Flashman books are absolutely superb.

I revere O'Brian. Historical fiction at its finest. If I had to choose, however, I would rate Robert Graves's "I, Claudius" and "Claudius, the Good" even higher. It is not that one author is better than the other – they are both superb. It is that Graves has undertaken the greater challenge. To carry us back to a time and civilization as remote as ancient Rome, and to do so convincingly and fluently, is more difficult than reconstructing what is, in fact, modern history. Honor to them both. I can't think of any writer of historical fiction who is worthy of sharpening their pencils (myself included).

I'm just starting with O'Brian after being a Hornblower devotee for years. C.S. Forester still feels to me like a more natural narrative thread but I'm all for giving O'Brian time to grow on me.

Stay with it, Stephen. O'Brian's worth it. Master and Commander starts off rather slowly. I almost put it aside. But the book gains strength, and the early sequels are superb. (The series loses momentum later on, as O'Brian aged.)

Forster is a great story teller; his writing is clean, vivid, and forceful. O'Brian ultimately offers more, however, in that his characters cover much more ground. They come from many cultures – and even include females (always something of a mystery to Hornblower and his creator). O'Brian is also a gifted humorist, providing laugh-out-loud leavening that Forster cannot.

I grew up on Hornblower and still enjoy revisiting the books, but I would take O'Brian with me to the proverbial desert island. The Aubrey/Maturin books offer worlds of pleasure.

The only reason I hesitate recommending O'Brian to friends is the hurdle of overcoming the nautical terminology. When I first started reading O'Brian, I relied on A Sea of Words: A Lexicon and Companion to the Complete Seafaring Tales of Patrick O'Brianto make sense of the battle scenes especially.

Constantly looking up the terminology slowed the reading down (sometimes it was a feverish search for a word to know what was happening in a thrilling scene), but after the first couple of books I didn't need the lexicon anymore.

Richard wrote: "Stay with it, Stephen. O'Brian's worth it. Master and Commander starts off rather slowly. I almost put it aside. But the book gains strength, and the early sequels are superb. (The series loses mo..."

I second that. I adore Aubrey and Maturin so much that I wouldn't say the later books let me down at all--Jack and Steven are always worth reading. One should never cur-tail one's reading even for the dog watch ;P

I made it through them all, Jeanie (17, if I recall correctly). It was only at the very end that I felt O'Brian's powers waining dramatically. Yellow Admiral, for instance, is more a sketch of a book than a finished product. Still, not bad for a man who started the series when he had already reached retirement age.

With someone as good as O'Brian, genre drops away. His stories are filed under "historical fiction," to be sure, but I think of them simply as great literature. I envy someone encountering them for the first time.

Richard wrote: "I made it through them all, Jeanie (17, if I recall correctly). "

Actually, there are 20 plus a fragment. For the record, they are:
Master and Commander (Book 1)
Post Captain (Book 2)
HMS Surprise (Book 3)
The Mauritius Incident (Book 4)
Desolation Island (Book 5)
The Fortune of War (Book 6)
The Ionian Mission (Book 8)
Treason’s Harbour (Book 9)
The Far Side of the World (Book 10)
The Reverse of the Medal (Book 11)
The Letter of Mark (Book 12)
The Thirteen Gun Salute (Book 13)
The Nutmeg of Consolation (Book 14)
The Truelove (Book 15)
The Wine-Dark Sea (Book 16)
The Commodore (Book 17)
The Yellow Admiral (Book 18)
The Hundred Days (Book 19)
Blue at the Mizzen (Book 20)
21: The Final Unfinished Voyage of Jack Aubrey

Tim wrote: "You're right about Dorothy Dunnett. Her work is wonderfully rich. Also Sharon Kay Penman!"

For historical fiction, I have a hard time thinking of anyone who tops Penman, though I'm a huge fan of Forester and O'Brian.

O'Brian is the best. If you have trouble w/ the verbage you get used to it or you can start w/ Sherlock Holmes it helps w/ the Queens English or buy the Sea of Words helper. If you like O'brian try Bernard Cornwell, Steven Pressfield, Dudly Pope, C.S. Forester, Conn Iggludin, Sir Conan Doyal (Sherlock Holms), Harry Harrison the Hammer & the Cross. Just remember "No galldamning of the eyes" lol. Pretty soon you'll be thinking in the foremast jacks lingo. Aubrey & Maturin are one literatures best duos. Like reading about old friends.

Check out Kenneth Roberts. His books are centered around the Revelutionary Period.

Loved Arundel.

The incomparable Dorothy Dunnett...

You guys will love Kenneth Roberts' "Arundel". You'll never think of Benedict Arnold the same way after reading it. See the reviews on Amazon. "Rabble in Arms" and "Northwest Passage" were good yarns too.

I suggest the top three and I believe all or on a equal footing would be C.S.Forrester's Hornblower series, Bernard Cornwell Sharp series and O'Brians Aubrey and Maturin series, So it boils down to which writing style do you like best and for me its Forrester.

sarg wrote: "I suggest the top three and I believe all or on a equal footing would be C.S.Forrester's Hornblower series, Bernard Cornwell Sharp series and O'Brians Aubrey and Maturin series, So it boils down to..."
I must say that although I read and enjoy Cornwell's Sharpe series, they are in no way in the same literary class as O'Brian (judged purely from the perspective of quality of writing as well as story (Cornwell only has one plot that he rewrites over and over again with the same kind of evil characters every time)).

Hornblower I'm yet to try as I've not been able to find them in affordable e-book editions.

Edward wrote: "I like Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe's series too, but it does not compare to the richness, word-lusciousness and depth of characters of an O'Brian. Richard Sharpe always gets the girl, gets beat up, a..."

Have you read George Macdonald-Fraser's Flashman Papers? Come very close to O'Brien for quality historical fiction.

Is there any historical fiction writer as good as O'Brian?

Gey few - and they're all deid!

Flashman!

O'Brian is the best, but Cornwell comes close. The thing that is so impressive for me is that O'Brian sustains a series over so many volumes. Cornwell attempts this with the Sharpe series, but doesn't quite pull it off for me. Cornwell's best series are shorter in nature. The Hornblower series by Forrester is a far third, although I loved the series on T.V.

I might suggest Stephen Lawhead...he writes serial books about historic people and eras, but in a different way. For instance, his book "Hood" is loosely based on Robin Hood, just after the Norman invasion...and I am currently reading his Celtic Crusades series (starting with "The Iron Lance,") and enjoying it immensely.

The reason I enjoy the books so much is Lawhead's deep understanding of the periods in which he writes...the Iron Lance was a superb story of the First Crusade, with all the historical characters present, as well as travelers from Scotland who participated...it is not my most knowledgeable period, but I have not found anything in the book that rings wholly unreasonable...

I highly recommend the two series beginnings I mentioned, "Hood," and "The Iron Lance." If you like them, then you will buy the rest of the books in the series

Clyde wrote: "Hi Tim,
Tastes vary, but I think Bernard Cornwell is a great writer of historical fiction. His Richard Sharpe series covers some of the same time period as O'Brian's books but the action takes plac..."

I completely agree. Richard Cornwell is a genius.

Juian Stockwin's KYDD series is a very good read. And he is still writing. Also set around Nelson's period.

I liked O'Brian but there were times when his detailed descriptions of a ship's rigging and sailing, that I am guessing 99% of the readers including me did not understand, got annoying. I like my historical novels to be based on historical fact and like others here I have greatly enjoyed the work of George MacDonald Fraser and Bernard Cornwell with GMF probably my favourite. I have also been recently impressed with the books by Robert Brightwell on Flashman's uncle Thomas in the napoleonic era - cheap and well worth a look if you are a fan of the original Flashman.

Steve wrote: "I liked O'Brian but there were times when his detailed descriptions of a ship's rigging and sailing, that I am guessing 99% of the readers including me did not understand, got annoying. I like my ..."

Never read George MacDonald Fraser, so another author to look for in our library.

John Jakes is one of my favorite writers of American history...for many reasons, the principle one being that his research is so good I learn things from reading his stories

C J Sanson - Shardlake the hinchback lawyer working in Tudor England is top for me at the moment.

Two that I like are: I.J.Parker, with her series that features Sugawara Akitada, who solves crimes in the Heian Period in Japanese history. And Gary Jennings for his "Aztec" novels (but not the Jennings Aztec novels that were in fact written by his editor).

Definitely O'Brian for me. I tried re-reading Forrester recently but found he lacked pace. If we go beyond the maritime theme I have a soft spot for Edith Pargeter's novels set on the Welsh border in the Middle Ages. And Josephine Tey's Daughter of Time is superb.

Richard wrote: "I revere O'Brian. Historical fiction at its finest. If I had to choose, however, I would rate Robert Graves's "I, Claudius" and "Claudius, the Good" even higher. It is not that one author is better..."
In the same vein, Ken Follett's "Pillars of the Earth" meets the challenge of carrying us back to a remote time and civilization - 12th century England - and bringing it to life, as you said, "convincingly and fluently." As for O'Brian, I'm happy to say I'm working my way through the series for the first time, only just now finishing "The Mauritius Command" with plenty of wonderful reading pleasure ahead.