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Absalom, Absalom!
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Discussion questions for "Absalom, Absalom!", by William Faulkner, June 2020
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Lawyer Stevens, Everitt, Kathy, etc.:Before we discuss these questions, I think someone is going to have to define "Old South", which to me is a fiction. I don't mind discussing the novel in those terms; I just need to know what is meant in this context.
Jessie
Here's a link to a KJV of 2 Samuel, where the story of Absalom and Tamar begins (I found it helpful, and I thought you might, too):http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/b...
I think people are jumping on Faulkner a bit hard. I would say he is Old South, and that we should steer around "gothic southern literature" as we write. The only thing that makes the South gothic is that it is kind of damp, boggy at times, and Kudzu can drive you nuts, but it's probably a great cure for alcoholism. Faulker's characters are developed in a way that defies Mark Twain's, and it belongs to the school that it antithetical to Kurt Vonnegut's. He doesn't believe you have to like his characters in order to read them. The longer and more of his stuff I read and compare to Percy, O'Connor and Toole, the less I believe in Southern Gothic, and the more I believe in good literature that confuses those who haven't lived in those places (I've never been to Maine, and have never had an interest in Stephen King). . . As for the Civil War. . . there is no getting around it. When Faulkner, O'Conner and the rest of the gang were doing their writing, it was still fresh in the minds of the South. The change in the economy, the change in how women were treated, the flight of many African Americans to the North, left them with rich and deep topics to write about. If we're reading Southern literature, we have no choice but to talk about the politics, the economics, and the issue of race as well.
Now, back to Absalom and McCullers, and Springsteen's philosophy!
Everitt, thank you; that gives me a starting point. I'll check out the Southernness thread, too, because, since I joined the group for just the last read, I haven't explored every nook and cranny. I think this is a good place to repost the definition, though!The Mythic South I can understand better in a literary context: a Tara-dwelling, hoop-skirt-wearing, Ivanhoe-reading, mint-julep drinking subculture.
The Old South as a concept born *after* the Civil War is also enlightening, but may be a little more difficult for me to get my mind around in a literary sense. I'm afraid I may have to stop and think about it for a minute: "no, stop thinking about actual history and think about a mindset instead."
And I appreciate your patience with me! I spend a great deal of my time trying to educate people about local history, so I tend to get a bit *too* literal sometimes. :^)
Jessie
Mike wrote: "Although our group read of Absalom, Absalom! does not begin until April 1, 2012, no foolin', the following questions from about classic lit provide things to think about as you make your way throug..."I'll have a go at a couple of these ...
Compare/Contrast Thomas Sutpen with the Old South.
I think Sutpen is the antithesis of the Old South
- he doesn't explain himself - he does not try to fit in - he is derided for having no "history" - and this in a tradition-bound society whose mores depend on who you are/where you came from, etc.
- he is also derided for the way he communicates with his black men, which is not by fear but by speaking
- he is derided for probably having taught himself to read - and for the crisp presumptuous way he salutes
- he's different, he stays a stranger and his progression in society is always at his own behest - never asking or waiting for 'polite' society's nod of approval
- he works, labors, right along side of his workers
- and to add salt to the societal wounds ... he becomes wealthy
How essential is the setting to the story? Could the story have taken place anywhere else?
- the place could change to another similar small southern town, but not the times
- before war was declared and Mississippi seceded Rosa's father was calm, logical, amiable, but when the die was cast he changed over night - he became estranged from anyone who had ever talked secession
- this led to his being ostracized - which led to his store being looted - which led to him locking himself in the attic and nailing the door shut. By using a pulley, Rosa lifted food to his window and did this for several years - but eventually he starved - his early death turning Rosa into an orphan and a pauper - but it was the Civil War that drove his actions.
"How does Faulkner reveal character in Absalom, Absalom?"Through narration, although he doesn't really develop characters in a traditional sense. When characters are speaking (which would normally be very revealing about the speaker), they are essentially meat puppets for the author/narrator. When characters are speaking *about* other characters, their insights are rarely reliable.
The best example is when Shreve starts narrating the story with Quentin--Shreve, who has never been to the area in question, who has only heard parts of the story third hand (at best), yet who begins to spin the yarn right along with the other characters, in the same voice.
"Compare/Contrast Thomas Sutpen with the Old South."I've divided this into three sections: Historical South, Mythic South, and New South. It just works better for me that way.
A. Thomas Sutpen represents an antebellum Historical South of the region where Faulkner lived (Lee County, MS). He combines these elements:
-A more northern mountain migration from the East in his own background
-A smattering of French from several bits to represent the French vs English colonial influence
-The Chickasaw element via his purchase of land for Sutpen's Hundred
-Being a slave owner and also having a part African wife
-and marrying into a family perceived to have connections with a more coastal southern migration pattern and with eventual anti-secession leanings
B. Sutpen's Hundred is Sutpen's attempt to create a Mythic South. He marries the "right" wife. He has slaves. He has money. He can now turn away anyone from his front door (which is Sutpen's definition of the Mythic South). But the War comes along and destroys the myth.
C. The New South is what grows out of Sutpen's myth and what it took to create it; namely, his children, who are, with one exception, a sterile offspring of a sterile dream.
-Charles Bon is tainted because he is not completely white. Both Charles Bon and his mother would prevent Sutpen from turning anyone away from his front door.
-Henry Sutpen falls in love with Charles Bon, his half brother who is also mulatto. This makes Henry sterile as a product of the myth.
-Judith Sutpen falls in love with Charles Bon her half brother who is also mulatto. Charles Bon is killed by Henry Sutpen. Judith doesn't love any other man. This makes Judith sterile as a product of the myth.
-Clytemnestra is tainted in the eyes of both the blacks (because of her "wild negro" heritage) and the whites. This makes Clytemnestra sterile as a product of the myth.
-Rosa, although not a child of Sutpen, falls into an in-between state as the designated "protector" of Judith, even though she is not much older than Judith herself. Falling into the "maiden aunt" role much too early, and then into the prospective bride role much too late (after the War), she is rendered sterile as part of the myth.
-Charles Bon's son Charles has a liaison with a black woman and a son Jim Bond. Presumably, Jim Bond has black descendants. Even though these descendants are not white, and would not be eligible to "come to the front door" of Sutpen's mythical abode, this is the only productive branch of his line. This is his New South.
"How essential is the setting to the story? Could the story have taken place anywhere else?"I think place is essential for this particular story. It would be different elsewhere, even elsewhere in the South.
Dadgumit, I missed one:-Wash Jones' granddaughter's child was killed.
That reminds me; I think that of the "betrayals" by Tom Sutpen, this is the one that hurts me the most. The others I can explain in some way. This one seems like a real betrayal. Wash Jones is the closest to one of his "own kind" that he has met since leaving the mountains. We are told that Sutpen "allowed" Jones to squat on Sutpen's Hundred, but it may be that Jones' family were Intruders on Indian lands long before other white families arrived and Jones suffered Sutpen to live on "his" land. Jones drank with Sutpen, protected his family, and respected him. Then Sutpen had the nerve to mess with his gal. The shooting was mountain justice, plain and simple.
Jessie wrote: ""Compare/Contrast Thomas Sutpen with the Old South."I've divided this into three sections: Historical South, Mythic South, and New South. It just works better for me that way.
A. Thomas Sutpen..."
JEssie: I love your comments about the sterility of the offspring etc. only one small detail: Rosa was actually a few years younger than her niece, Judith.
Sue wrote: "JEssie: I love your comments about the sterility of the offspring etc. only one small detail: Rosa was actually a few years younger than her niece, Judith..."Thank you! Writing on the fly usually catches me in some way (or ways). ;^)
Mod
Excellent, FB.
Lawyer Stevens
Mod
Through narration, although he doesn't really develop characters in a traditional sense. When characters are speaking (which would normal..."
Spot on.
Mod
I'll say that there are two ways we can define the..."
In the context of the discussion question regarding Sutpen and "The Old South" it is simpler to think of the South that existed prior to the the Civil War. It was never mythic. It existed. See Clement Eaton, A History Of The Old South: The Emergence of a Reluctant Nation.
The use of the "mythic" South correlates more to that South of barbecues, plantations and hoop skirts--in other words, romanticized, a la Margaret Mitchell.
For me, it is easiest to consider the plot of Absalom as antebellum and post bellum, concluding during the Reconstruction of the South.
Flash Beagle wrote: "- before war was declared and Mississippi seceded Rosa's father was calm, logical, amiable, but when the die was cast he changed over night - he became estranged from anyone who had ever talked secession- this led to his being ostracized - which led to his store being looted - which led to him locking himself in the attic and nailing the door shut. By using a pulley, Rosa lifted food to his window and did this for several years - but eventually he starved - his early death turning Rosa into an orphan and a pauper - but it was the Civil War that drove his actions. "
I just wanted to say something about the secession in "Absalom, Absalom." I felt compelled because I grew up in Winston County, Alabama, which is our county that seceded from the state during the War (I think most Southern states had one).
This bit puzzled me at first, but then I realized that it was Rosa's father's way of expressing his pacifist views. At least, that's the way I interpreted it. He had no strong ties to the Union that I could tell, so this was the most logical explanation for me.
A little late, but here's an interesting article about Absalom.http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/mag...
Mod
This is an ambitious read for me. The comments from Mike are a big assistance.
Yes Judi this is ambitious. I've read it three or four times. each time it seems new. Stay with it. a geneological chart helps, but it is a spoiler. I left a link above. Family lines are a big thing for Faulkner. Best wishes Judi.
On the Southern Literary Trail
Books mentioned in this topic
A History Of The Old South: The Emergence of a Reluctant Nation (other topics)Absalom, Absalom! (other topics)
How does Faulkner reveal character in Absalom, Absalom?
What are some themes in the story? How do they relate to the plot and characters?
Compare/Contrast Thomas Sutpen with the Old South.
Is Thomas Sutpen consistent in his actions? Is he a fully developed character? How? Why?
Do you find the characters likable? Are the characters persons you would want to meet?
Discuss some of the symbols in Absalom, Absalom.
Does the story end the way you expected? How? Why?
What is the central/primary purpose of the story? Is the purpose important or meaningful?
How essential is the setting to the story? Could the story have taken place anywhere else?
Who are the narrators in Absalom, Absalom? Why does Faulkner use multiple narrators? How would the novel have differed with only one narrator?
Lawyer Stevens