Holocaust and genocide discussion

What are your favorite Holocaust fiction?

I absolutely loved:
"The Last of the Just," by Andre Schwarz-Bart.
"The Wall," by John Hersey, about the Warsaw Ghetto
"Mila 18" by Leon Uris, also about the Warsaw Ghetto
"King of the Jews," by Leslie Epstein
"The Painted Bird," by Jerzy Kosinski
There's a terrific, more recent book called "Brodeck," by Phillippe Claudel.

These are all phenomenal books. What are your favorites?

Was The Wall really good? I have been meaning to read that, I have been especially interested in that one because I have read Hersey's Hiroshima, which I read in one sitting, absolutely stunning.

I've read so much WWII fiction, but some of my favorites were Those Who Save Us, The Invisible Bridge and The Glass House.

I just read Two Brothers which was quite good.

I am currently reading Those Who Save Us. It is a very good book about a German woman during WWII and present day.

recently I have been reading a lot of holocaust books such as "The Boy in The Striped Pajamas", "Yellow Star", and the "Once" Series. All of these are great!

Hello, Lizzy,

Well, there are books about the Holocaust and there is fiction about same. I think I have become allergic to fiction about the Holocaust.

"The Boy in the Striped Pajamas" is on top of my list of truly bad books. Rather than give you my reasons, do me and yourself a favor and look up this book on Amazon.com. Scroll down to a review of Jan. 17, 2013, entitled "Naive Fiction" by Edith S. Kubicek. The latter is my wife, but it was written by me. Then you can tell me what you think.

Peter Kubicek

Peter wrote: "Hello, Lizzy,

Well, there are books about the Holocaust and there is fiction about same. I think I have become allergic to fiction about the Holocaust.

"The Boy in the Striped Pajamas" is on top ..."

I agree with you, Peter. I am absolutely allergic to fiction about the Holocaust

Thanks, Aleksandar,

I am not just a naive bystander here. I write as one who was once himself a boy in striped pajamas, from the age of 14-15. When it comes to the Holocaust, I am interested in facts only and not in "cute" stories. There are lots of good, factual books about this tragic period.

Peter

Peter wrote: "Thanks, Aleksandar,

I am not just a naive bystander here. I write as one who was once himself a boy in striped pajamas, from the age of 14-15. When it comes to the Holocaust, I am interested in f..."

I agree with both of you, Peter and Aleksander!!!

~ Elizabeth

"allergic to fiction about the Holocaust"

There is one author, a Holocaust survivor, who presently has fascinating works of quality literature available as English translations. The two Holocaust narratives from HG Adler are both worth reading, though not easy. The titles are "Panorama" and "The Journey." Book reviews:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/art...

An informative page on the author from King's College, London:
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/library/collect...

And Adler's Goodreads page:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...

Novalis,

I fully agree with you that HG Adler is definitely worth reading, though not easy.

Peter Kubicek
Author of "Memories of Evil -- Recalling a World War II Childhood"
This modest memoir is easy reading, but whether it is worth reading, you will have to make up your own mind about. In any case, I can assure you that it is strictly factual and historically verifiable.

I've been reading the comments here with mixed feelings. It's true that writing about the holocaust is likely to engender much stronger feelings in us, simply because it's closer to us. It's also true that we need to be extremely careful not to "add insult to injury" by trivializing experiences that some alive today still remember and still suffer from.

At the same time, it seems to me that both sides of the debate--to write or not to write--are coming from essentially the same place, a place of memory and personal connection. Whether we are consciously aware of it or not, the events of the shoah have been imprinted in our souls--kol Yisrael arevim zeh l'zeh in a very literal and visceral sense.

This inheritance hits each of us in different ways, just as it hits different survivors in different ways. Some are compelled to bear witness. Others feel that no words can convey it, and that silence is the only truthful answer.

I'm struggling with the same issues that others have mentioned. A Damaged Mirror grew out of a lifetime of living with Shoah memory. Having participated in PTSD support groups with survivors and non-survivors, I can say that telling this story has met with everything from outright hostility to the most astounding support and encouragement.

What finally tipped the balance was the encouragement from a rav who knows this story well and has played a decisive role in helping me break the "silence barrier". His response was: "This is not your story alone, and it is your responsibility to use whatever means God has given into your hands, in order to tell it." And this, despite the fact that this telling could endanger his privacy, which he guards so zealously.

As to the line between truth and fiction... When it comes to the inner landscape, the usual measures of falsity or truth break down. Is a dream "true"? Is an emotion "true"? How much of our memories--even of our daily life--can we say are true? Sure, we can verify that others experienced the same thing we did. But each person will remember it differently. The effect on each person will be different. So it is with writing about any events of the past, even our own. (Perhaps *especially* our own). We must always be aware of the subjectivity of our memory. Our past is not built of our experiences; it is built of our memories of our experiences.

Comes a point where we simply have to be true to that inner truth, and accept the tasks that God sets before us to do, wherever it may lead us.

Anna wrote: "What are your favorite Holocaust fiction?"

Without exception, the most insightful works of the Holocaust literary genre are "Panorama"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/art...
and "The Journey"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/art...
by the underappreciated author HG Adler
http://austrianresearchuk.wordpress.c...

Yael wrote: "I've been reading the comments here with mixed feelings ..."

Thank you for the gentle, intelligent, and insightful rendering of this subject matter.

Yael,

I have read your sensitive, insightful post with great interest. As an author of a Holocaust memoir, I know exactly what you are talking about. My only inflexible rule about writing about this enormity is that everything once writes must be factual and must conform to verifiable historical facts. While this seems obvious to me, unfortunately much has been written about the Holocaust that simply contradicts facts. Holocaust fiction is on top of my list of books that subvert the truth.

Best wishes from Peter

Peter wrote: "Yael,

Holocaust fiction is on top of my list of books that subvert the truth. ..."

Perhaps one should distinguish between Holocaust fiction and Holocaust literature. I cannot emphasize enough the quality of the works of HG Adler in the latter.

Yael, I have the highest regard for H.G. Adler. As an example of fake Holocaust fiction, I have reviewed on Goodreads a very well-known and best-selling book called "The Boy In The Striped Pajamas." Perhaps you can find my review and you will see what I mean.

Peter

Novalis,

Yes, I think that is a very good distinction--between Holocaust fiction and Holocaust literature. Of course, figuring out where to draw the line is likely to be a subject of some debate. But there is something to be said for literature as a means of conveying what cannot be conveyed through dry recitation of the facts.

I'm not sure how I would go about making the distinction between literature and fiction, but perhaps a start might be this: fiction creates a reality that never was; literature retells a reality in such a way as to enhance it's reality. While literature may not have a one-to-one correspondence with facts, it does have a one-to-one correspondence with truth--with the subjective truth as it was lived.

Well, just typing out loud here.... My opinions on this are still in flux, and perhaps always will be. I vacillate between the desire to pour it all out in words and have done with it, and despair at being able to convey anything at all.

Peter wrote: "Yael,

Holocaust fiction is on top of my list of books that subvert the truth."

Yes, I think you've hit exactly the problem--subversion of truth. Or perhaps it's that some writers use the Holocaust as a vehicle, or a tool... They are not writing about the events, but are rather using the events for their own ends. That is something that strikes a nerve. These things cannot be used. They can scarcely even be thought, but certainly not used.

Helen wrote: "I absolutely loved:
"The Last of the Just," by Andre Schwarz-Bart.
"The Wall," by John Hersey, about the Warsaw Ghetto
"Mila 18" by Leon Uris, also about the Warsaw Ghetto
"King of the Jews," by..."

King of the Jews! Other than my husband and I, I don't know anyone else who has read it. So good.

Cynthia wrote: "Helen wrote: "I absolutely loved:
"The Last of the Just," by Andre Schwarz-Bart.
"The Wall," by John Hersey, about the Warsaw Ghetto
"Mila 18" by Leon Uris, also about the Warsaw Ghetto
"King of..."
Cynthia,
I guess you forgot you wrote the same thing to me re King of the Jews. Leslie Epstein was my Shakespeare professor. I'm sure his son is more famous (former General Manager of the Red Sox, now with the Cubs.

Arnie wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "Helen wrote: "I absolutely loved:
"The Last of the Just," by Andre Schwarz-Bart.
"The Wall," by John Hersey, about the Warsaw Ghetto
"Mila 18" by Leon Uris, also about the Warsaw..."

Arnie, I'm getting old! I don't remember things as well as I used to. He actually taught here at Queens College many, many years ago. I had a friend who had him and said he wore a cape. Are you talking Boston? Yeah, it's funny about his son. He was good for the Sox.

Now you're making me feel old. He taught me when Ali fought Frasier (the first time). I think it was 1971. I never saw him wear a cape. Is he retired or still head of the writing department at Boston College or Boston University (in my old age I confuse the two).

None of you are as old as I am. I attended Queens College from 1948-1952, majoring in European History. I also studied French with Prof. LeClerque, who was the father of the famous ballerina Tanaquil LeClerque.

Actually, yesterday was my 84th birthday.

Peter

Peter wrote: "None of you are as old as I am. I attended Queens College from 1948-1952, majoring in European History. I also studied French with Prof. LeClerque, who was the father of the famous ballerina Tanaq..."

Happy Birthday, Peter! Yes, you're right. My husband and I were there in the late sixties.

Arnie wrote: "Now you're making me feel old. He taught me when Ali fought Frasier (the first time). I think it was 1971. I never saw him wear a cape. Is he retired or still head of the writing department at Bost..."

BU. I'm not sure but I think he might still be there.

Hope it was a happy birthday Peter. Cynthia, I was there from 1968 to 1972. You should have stopped by and said hello.

Peter wrote: "Hello, Lizzy,

Well, there are books about the Holocaust and there is fiction about same. I think I have become allergic to fiction about the Holocaust.

"The Boy in the Striped Pajamas" is on top ..."

Okay, Peter, I just read the review. I never read the book but I did see the movie and thought the whole thing was ridiculous. Have you read anything recently that you believe is realistic?

Arnie wrote: "Hope it was a happy birthday Peter. Cynthia, I was there from 1968 to 1972. You should have stopped by and said hello."

Where are you from?

I grew up in Jackson Heights and moved to Jersey when I was 33. Always worked in New York until I had to retire in July. Did you grow up in Queens also?

Hello, Lizzie,

First of all I wish to thank everyone for your kind birthday wishes.

As for your question about Holocaust fiction, no, I have not read anything that did not contain implausible situations. And then there are the total hoaxes -- Holocaust memoirs that turned out to be fictional and phony. The most infamous was the Herman and Roma Rosenblat hoax which was exposed at the end of 2008. The tragic thing about that was that Herman was a genuine Holocaust survivor, a Polish Jew who suffered immeasurably from 1939-1945. He concocted the phony tale about himself and his wife about 50 years after the War and kept adding preposterous details as he went along.

So, my advice is, stay away from Holocaust fiction and if you wish to learn more stay with genuine Holocaust memoirs. Even those vary greatly from good, to fair, to poor. When I wrote my own memoir, the uppermost thing in my mind was to stick to verifiable historical facts.

Very interesting and important discussion. I've just read all of the posts here.

I agree with stand fast with Peter Kubicek's views.

I highly recommend Peter's memoir: "Memories of Evil: A WW II Childhood" if you want to read a book about The Holocaust like none other. I've read countless memoirs and other works about The Holocaust. Peter's memoir is all fact, zero fat, and is a riveting and compelling story that made me as a reader feel like I was right there every step of the way with Peter. A slim volume that packs more punch than many 300 plus page memoirs I've read. You won't want to put the book down.

I first learned about the "Herman and Roma Rosenblat hoax" through Peter. Another book that is a pack of lies and heinous in my opinion, but has yet to be proven as such for many reasons that Peter knows better than I is,"The Mascot", by Mark Kurzem. Link to book below. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

Best to all of you,
Elizabeth








"The Boy in The Striped Pajamas" is so absurd as to be laughable, yet last summer the publisher took out a huge ad in the NY Times when one million copies had been sold.

Elizabeth wrote: "Herman and Roma Rosenblat hoax"..."

This couple's absurd story was a gift to Holocaust revisionists. There is an insightful and moving article on "Angel at the Fence" (Herman's historical documentary nonsense) in the New Republic:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/bo...

Take note of the comment from fellow Holocaust survivor Henry Golde. Henry's book "Ragdolls" is a further worthwhile account of a child's experiences during the Shoah.

Here is the Goodreads review:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

Peter wrote:

As for your question about Holocaust fiction, no, I have not read anything that did not contain implausible implausible situations. And then there are the total hoaxes -- Holocaust memoirs that turned out to be fictional and phony."

This is the very thing that has made me unsure how to categorize my own work. It's as factual as one person's fragmented and haunted memory can be. And yet that's exactly the problem--the memory is fragmented and haunted. In telling the story, I've used written journal bits and samplings of correspondence, but the process of choosing which bits to use and which to leave out introduces an element of "fictionalization".

And then there's the issue of how the memory comes to me. That is necessarily going to add yet another layer of subjectivity. And in my case, a layer of the surreal as well.

So with all of that, should I classify it as fiction or as memoir? If I classify it as fiction, when there are people around me who were part of the events as they happened, does that not do a disservice to their memories as well? On the other hand, I have told memory as subjective memory, and others may remember things differently. How does that impact on truth?

These dilemmas have caused some sleepless nights, as the last thing I want to do is add yet another crime of erasure to an already unbearable reality.

Yael wrote: "... unsure how to categorize my own work ..."

Perhaps HG Adler has some insight here. Writing in the first person, he cites (I wanted)“to represent it in two different ways. I wanted to explore it in a scholarly manner and so separate it from myself completely, and I wanted to portray it in a literary manner. I have done both and the fact that I have done so is no great achievement but it does provide a small justification for having survived.”
Reference:
http://annesebba.com/journalism/i-sha...

Adler also wrote “I said to myself: ‘If I survive all this, and I very much doubt it, then I will bear witness to everything that I experience, not, however, by a personal record, but in an objective, scholarly form’”
Reference:
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/library/collect...

Novalis wrote:

Perhaps HG Adler has some insight here. Writing in the first person, he cites (I wanted)“to represent it in two different ways...."

I'm definitely going to have to read HG Adler's works. Oddly enough, I have never been able to read even non-fiction accounts. Just avoided the whole subject. I think the writing has changed that and now I could probably read things. And now, thanks to the recommendations on this thread, I know just where to start!

Yael, You write about your struggle with great honesty. Yes, of course, memory is always subjective. And the further we are removed in time from memories which are painful to start with, the more difficult it is to write them down.

And, yes, I had sleepless nights during the process. On the other hand, some important memories seemed to surface while I lay in bed during the night. I made mental notes to recall them in the morning.

In fact, I recounted these memories to my wife in the morning and verbalizing them was another help.

Lastly, my effort was always geared to sticking to facts, as I recalled them, and not engage in speculation. In my case, what may have actually helped is the fact that I do not have a poetic voice. My style is to describe facts the way I see them.

Peter

Arnie wrote: "I grew up in Jackson Heights and moved to Jersey when I was 33. Always worked in New York until I had to retire in July. Did you grow up in Queens also?"

Sorry, I only just saw this. Little Neck.

Peter wrote: "Hello, Lizzy,

Well, there are books about the Holocaust and there is fiction about same. I think I have become allergic to fiction about the Holocaust.

"The Boy in the Striped Pajamas" is on top ..."

I have to agree with Peter. I've have read Holocaust fiction over many decades but rarely do now. As the research has deepened and more and more survivors and historians were encouraged to write about personal stories as well as historical background and revelation, I began to wonder why I was even reading this fiction. Surely non-fiction is the most authentic view to even begin to think about this horror.

In the hands of a good writer, literature is more emotionally engaging and can reach a reader on a deeper level. As long as it is true to the history I think it is a good thing. Of course a book like The Boy In The Striped Pajamas is an abomination. Memoirs have several advantages but need to be well written. An individual telling his or her own story can certainly reach a reader on the deepest level. Dry recitations of the facts can be boring. I did not like the TV series the Holocaust but it did bring the subject of the Holocaust into the open and people in America finally became interested in the survivors stories. Each individual work should be judged on its own merits.

First of all, I wish to thank Cameron for his gracious comment.

And Arnie, you make very valid points. I think your operative phrase is, "As long as it is true to history."

Here is my take. We Holocaust survivors are a dying breed: within a couple of decades we will be extinct. It is to me of great importance that the testimony we leave behind be authentic, truthful and historically accurate. I have been a careful student of Holocaust for great many years. The vast amount of misinformation I have come across is simply staggering. This includes fake memoirs, fake films, fake theses, and private viewpoints masquerading as fact. With the information explosion on the Internet, misinformation thrives and spreads and does untold damage to the cause of truth about the Holocaust. I have been very active in the effort to debunk the fake and the phony wherever I found it.

I rest my case.

No problem with that. As someone who loves literature I think it is a mistake to dismiss all fiction. Literature can sometimes reveal larger truths and reach the reader on the deepest emotional levels. good memoirs can do the same.
I am 2nd gen and have been immersed in the Holocaust my whole life. Both of my parents were sole survivors and a group of survivors and their children formed my extended family. My mother has spoken at churches, schools, synagogues and museums dozens of times. My sister devoted a few years of her life studying the history and interviewing survivors for the Spielberg project. Both are on the board of the New Jersey State Holocaust Commission. My daughter works at the Museum of Jewish Cultural Heritage and part of her job includes teaching teachers on how to educate their students about the Holocaust. The fake, the phony, the false, and the contrived infuriate all of us. But we have all been deeply affected by some Holocaust related literature.

One other thing that bears on this is that writing--story-telling in the classic sense of the word--is not only about preserving memory but also about altering the future. It's not only a means of telling what has been, but also an attempt to build what should be. And so even the most minutely-exacting account of events is the outcome of a choice of what to tell and how to tell it. And that choice is driven by the question: why am I telling.

In the case of A Damaged Mirror, the writing was a path toward healing–both physical and spiritual. Ovadya’s story had been a part of my world for so long that it was eating me out from within, begging to be told.

The sheer quantity of experience that eventually condensed into A Damaged Mirror could just as easily have yielded any of a dozen other stories--all equally true. But the one that emerged was the one that most needed expression, and so that was the one I went with. Ovadya's search for justice and atonement was his path to healing. Telling his story was mine.

I just ordered this. Thank you.

cameron wrote: "I have to agree with Peter. I've have read Holocaust fiction over many decades but rarely do now. As the research has deepened and more and more survivors and historians were encouraged to write ab..."

Survivor testimony is far more valuable then fictional versions. I would stay away from fiction altogether both in books and film. Of course there is an endless number of research, not to mention the Washington DC holocaust memorial as well as Yad Vashem in Israel.

cameron wrote: "I just ordered this. Thank you."