Idle Book Club discussion

I thought the writing in this book was very nice in this book, but the content was too full of melodrama. What happened Adrian was also cliched IMO. Maybe I can't relate because I was never a highschool-aged boy in Britain. I'm curious to hear what men thought of this book.

While I have very little in common with Tony, the book definitely hit me in the gut. It wasn't that I directly related to Tony's life or any exact situation, but the general thoughts on regret and memory kind of got to me just as I was second guessing some of my recent choices.

I think I read the book at both the wrong and right time (if that makes any sense). At any other time, I think the book would come across as overwhelmingly melodramatic. Reading it recently - I dunno - it left more of an impression.

This book blew me away.

^ IGN Book Review

I didn't find this book to be melodramatic. It seemed entirely plausible to me, both in terms of the events described and the characters' reactions to them. If anything, I found it to be the opposite--for much of the novel outward emotional restraint seemed to be the order of the day, and that was at the root of much of the conflict.

^ For me, I loved the restraint in the first half of the book, but then, after we find out (Adrian spoiler) (view spoiler)[Adrian sleeps with his girlfriend's mom and has a child with her (hide spoiler)] it landed in Soap Opera Land for me.

Also, it may be the result of a flawed narrator, but none of the female characters seemed very likable.

I was disappointed by The Thing That Happened since the buildup was so nicely done.

I think that's fair enough, but it didn't bother me. The event may not be a common occurrence, but as That That Could Happen To Humans I think it's fair game for a realistic work of fiction. Certainly, more outrageous things have happened in the world.

To me, what mattered more was the way it was addressed in the reactions of the characters and the interior life of the narrator, which were all convincing to me. I think a big part of the point of the novel is that there was this terrible, impossible-to-simply-guess event that had a profound impact on the narrator's social circle. Much of what I took from the novel is that we form opinions about people based on extremely limited information, and yet almost everyone has massively important and unknowable events in his or her life that inform their actions and their interactions with us. Everyone's perspective on everyone else is extremely relative. The event in question only seems out of the blue and extreme to us, because we come upon in the same way the narrator does. Had we experienced this book from another character's perspective it would have been almost unrecognizable. The point (to me) is less the event itself and more the asymmetrical effect it has on those involved.

"The point (to me) is less the event itself and more the asymmetrical effect it has on those involved."

This is definitely something that impressed me about the book. The events of the story were largely mundane, normal things, but I felt every emotion from Tony, Veronica, Adrian, etc deep in the pit of my stomach.

I never felt that the focus of the novel was on delivering a plot. I felt that the plot was the delivery mechanism for Barnes' ruminations on memory, aging, and regret, and in that regard, it did a brilliant job.

While I tackled the book on a single Saturday, I actually read part one, took a few hours off, and then went back and read part two. During the interim—even before he began revisiting what had happened—I still found myself turning over the events in my mind. It's weird, and I need to re-read the opening to put my finger on why it seemed so poignant even on its own. Something peculiar about the way Barnes uses language there, perhaps, but I'm very much in the same boat as Gregory as being mystified how the author took these pretty ordinary events and used them to drive an undercurrent of... dread?

If I hadn't totally bought that first part, though, I can see how the rest of the book would have fallen flat. The book is sort of like a laid-out whip, with the motion magnified through the length until it finally cracks at the tip.

Greg wrote: "...The book is sort of like a laid-out whip, with the motion magnified through the length until it finally cracks at the tip.."

Wow, that's a descriptive way of putting it. For me, I thought the "crack" was in the beginning because that sense of dread caught me right away. I guess the dread was too effective because by the time I got to the Thing That Happened I was expecting too much.

Throwing in this awesome Vladimir Nabokov quote from The Real Life of Sebastian Knight that seems to apply precisely to this book as well:

"Remember that what you are told is really threefold: shaped by the teller, reshaped by the listener, concealed from both by the dead man of the tale."

Greg wrote: "Throwing in this awesome Vladimir Nabokov quote from The Real Life of Sebastian Knight that seems to apply precisely to this book as well:

"Remember that what you are to..."

Yeah that pretty much nails it.

This book was very frustrating for me to read. I identified very much with the maleable and eroding nature of memory, but the way the plot in the second chapter is obfuscated by Veronica's actions was so irritating that I actually didn't realize the reveal until reading this thread. The emotions and the mood of the book are much more the point of it than what literally happens, but in my case the deliberate misdirection and stonewalling meant that I just didn't get it (and very nearly never would).

That being said, I feel bad for relating to Tony as much as I do, particularly when he talks about her bookshelf as being "an organic continuation of her mind and personality, whereas mine struck me as functionally separate, straining to describe a character I hoped to grow into."

I was weirdly hoping after the end of the first chapter it would start to explore the story from everybody else's perspective, rashomon style.

I really enjoyed the beginning of this book, and the exploration of the events of the past told through the mind of someone who wholeheartedly acknowledges that their memory of events is fallible.

At numerous points during this book I found myself stopping to reflect on events of my life, ones that I may have misinterpreted, or the actions of others that may have been contrary to my perception of them at the time.

But by the end of the book I found myself getting frustrated at Tony, who seemingly misread some of the most important moments of his life, or was content with the vaguest of explanations of them.

When he does eventually want to find out the truth of the past, he seems to do the bare minimum amount of work to achieve it. Send some emails and wait. Then be happy with the vaguest of responses. Then to learn the ultimate truth of the past event covered in this book, sit in a pub for weeks and hope the answer will magically come to him.

I know this novel is about much more than the surface of the events that occur within (impact of events on social circles, memory, love, etc.), but I occasionally found it hard to dive deeper because I was frustrated with Tony and his actions or lack of.

This is just the beginning and ending boiled down to base elements. I really like the writing, the time jumps, and memory gaps. The characters are all developed well and are believable in this world. The drama presented seems to be grounded in some sort of reality.

Presentation : 8.8
Graphics: 1.5
Sound: 1
Gameplay: 3
Lasting Appeal: 8

Seldom am I glad that a book is short and regard that fact as a good thing for had it been longer I fear would have skipped all meals and instead spent the entire day doing nothing but reading. Regardless of my relative young age I found myself relating to countless behaviors that arise through group dynamics and norms that society imposes on all of us.

(view spoiler)[
My favorite subject in how the book brings up the subjective view one has over a person’s death and their relevance to the rest of their surroundings. In his youth, Anthony is quick to sum up Robson’s life, make value judgments and dismiss the event as nothing special. But when one of his distant friends kills himself, his younger self seeks to find an easy explanation, which also unconsciously exempts him as a possible culprit and Adrian’s life is compared to great philosophers and their quest to answer some of life’s great questions.
(hide spoiler)]

PS.
Should we send the questions that are meant for the Bookcast to some email or will you guys just pick em out from here?

I finished reading the part two today (finished part 1 yesterday) and the whole book up to the crux and big reveal was chilling in a way that the experiences Tony writes about and his self justifications, assumptions, and self discussion on memory really struck close as although I'm not nearly the same age as the narrorator, nor have I someone living in London, there are several parallels to my life so far that really took me aback and made me self reflect a little in a remorseful manner.

That said, the ending felt like it broke that flow with the revelation, though maybe because of the brevity of it.

Greg wrote: "...The book is sort of like a laid-out whip, with the motion magnified through the length until it finally cracks at the tip.." Is a very accurate and elegant description of the book. Definitely a memorable read with a little atypical reasoning behind it.

Simon wrote: "Seldom am I glad that a book is short and regard that fact as a good thing for had it been longer I fear would have skipped all meals and instead spent the entire day doing nothing but reading. Reg..."
You can send questions/comments/observations to books@idlethumbs.net. I imagine we'll also refer to this thread.

I appreciated this book as a work of really outstanding prose (there are a ton of profound adages in there) but narratively I just didn't connect with that character. I found there was an underlying tone of cynicism and glibness that honestly annoyed me - I suspect part of the problem stems from it reading as an autobiography, and I'm generally not a fan of those.

The theme of history versus memory is a very interesting concept to explore, but I didn't quite feel it came together in a satisfying way. It's hard for me to critique, because I don't have a specific problem with the narrative - it's extremely believable and well-written - but the vessel through which these themes were explored just never managed to resonate with me.

I should say that I really like the fact that you picked a shorter book for the first cast. Honestly, it has probably been several years since I've read a book that was under 500 pages, and it was very refreshing to go through it in just two sittings. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

This probably spoils the intent of the story and how it's carried out.

I'm not sure, what's the expected format of those, but being given 1000 characters and being more used to talk about books rather than write about them, I went for the semi-organized brain dump.

Hopefully the open questions I'm leaving in will allow other readers to inform my current opinion.

In terms of theme, it feels very unique and what it has too say sounded pretty important and relevant to me.
What's more is that it is not some kind of grand philosophical debate, but it feels like a minor discovery that should feed wider topics; and that I'm left to do that on my own.
I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it had a greater impact because the topic sounds "humble": personal thoughts on a very individually oriented story.
Maybe also, because it's reflected upon by a "failed" middle age man; who seems to put down his experience not to transmit some kind of message, but to confirm it actually happened.

I identified with Tony on two aspects: the fact that he recognizes being passive, overly engrossed in thought experiments about his life and that he knows what he should do to come out of this, but consciously decides not to do it.

What I didn't identify with, I really adopted, because Barnes managed to drag me inside the character mental model very efficiently and have me accept it as a lense for the story. The most interesting part of Tony's character is that he ends up creating a fake solution to a person 'mystery' because he is wrongly convinced that he possesses both the information and the mental ability to solve this puzzle. This confidence in this "skill", his unwillingness to ever confirm his conclusion with said person and how content he is to have constructed an unshakable base to build a relation on, is what makes him dysfunctional and somewhat dangerous without ever meaning it. I found that very interesting to explore and really drew me in: I read this in one 3-hour reading session, which is a testament to that.


Formally, it's pitch perfect :I love the style and the flow of the language that is neither too contrived or too "characterised" (like in The Catcher in the Rye, for instance).It has a few darts of humor which I really enjoyed, and the summary recounting the 30 odd years between the two main events; is a jewel of pace. Nothing really prepared me for it after the swarm of anecdotes of the first part, and it really gives a clear sense of how peacefuly disenchanted Tony's feels about how his life panned out. It's brilliant because it feels like Barnes has to be the most subtle and most careful writer to find the tiny variation in tone and vocabulary that would evoke this kind of sensation. So, yeah, I was floored by that part. The rest is pretty much in line with that, except for two things I'll come back to later.

Anyway, one of the crafty things I enjoyed was that the more the narrator discover is own shortcomings and lack of information, the more, as a reader, I felt I needed to take those epiphanies and realizations with a grain of salt. It was like being told "Hey, I just discovered I might be an unreliable narrator, let me tell you how unreliable I think I am" and feeling "yeah, well, maybe you don't understand the breadth of your ignorance"; which is a great way of keeping a distance between the reader and the character. That's important, because, like I said earlier, the writer is also very good at making you adopt Tony's point of view. So this balances that.

The only thing I found unsubtle was the way the author really spelled out the theme of the book in the dialog between Adrian and the history professor. It could be defended as the narrator selectively remembering anecdotes that feeds what he extracted from the later revelations of the book (and the intro is specific about it), but even then it felt heavy handed, a little too Kaiser Soze-ish.

Actually, I'm slighlty bothered by the fact that I can't really tell when the narrator is actually writing this : is he writing from the end of the book or is he writing a journal, updated at key moments? It might sound trivial, but I think, given the tendency of the character to ciment conclusion on partial evidence, you could understand the way he recounts events very differently based on one or the other.

The other element I was disappointed with - liking my endings to be dark and all that - is that the narrator is given the key to the important pieces at the end. He doesn't know everything, but he does solve the puzzle he was faced with. At that point, it might have made more sense to provide the missing fragment of Adrian's diary to the readers and not to the character.

It might have broken the journal convention, but it would have realized the theme even better IMO. (also thanks for reading this deep in the wall of text) In that state, it feels like the character learned - albeit too late - an important life lesson. That cancelled out a bit the original point of how one cannot really make those kind of assumption in life, since one can never truly tell how well one knows people. That being said, I'm suddenly wondering if it's wrong on my part to think that Barnes' means to make a general statement about relationships: the book commits to Tony's faulty point of view and other characters (even ones with less info like )seems to have a way greater grasp of what is really happening than he is. So maybe, it's purely descriptive of one sort of bended social trait. Ah, well, I'm not sure.

Anyway, this wall of text speaks for itself : it was definitely interesting and I goddbled it in 3 hours, so thanks Thumbs for that.

Also, I agree with Chris' view on the asymetric responses of each character to the hidden event.

I've got a bunch of other question about how you guys understood some of the characters' action, but it's very spoilerish, so I'll wait until May for those.


Also, sorry for the wall of text.

The whip comment is perfect, I think.

Thanks for suggesting the book, I thought it was really fascinating. The whole theme of deluding yourself in memory is devastating.

The reveal of the letter was a pretty big turning point, for me. Up until that point, I was on Tony's side, but the letter was such a hate-filled diatribe I turned on him. Even then, though, I can understand where he was coming from when he wrote it, and there is a lot of sadness in (view spoiler)[its unexpected prophecy. (hide spoiler)]

Fantastic book! I never would have picked this up without a recommendation so thank you!

It's interesting how this book managed to affect people at a personal level as if Tony was telling them stories about their own life. I think a lot of what resonated with me is the experience of one's first relationship. (view spoiler)[ It is usually something that doesn't last but is full of the excitement of discovery and romantic fantasy. When it is time for each to go their own way, it is usually painful and bitter and that feeling stays in someone's life forever.

Time seems to heal the wounds but that person will always be "the fruitcake" (or whatever nickname is relevant). It is great to get the satisfaction of catching up with this relationship again and seeing how the dynamic is still present. Anyone who has met up with an ex years later will have the moment of "oh right, THAT'S why we broke up." because the dynamic is still there. Additionally, each person has kept their respective label of "fruitcake" or in Tony's case, probably "clueless asshole".

When they get in touch again, it plays out in perfect harmony with their dynamic. Veronica's mysterious approach, the random email responses, the scant information she gave Tony, completely supported "fruitcake". At the same time, Tony's fixation on the diary and his crass comments about her brother supported "clueless asshole". If the information had been out in the open, they both would have probably behaved differently.

This is the fact that gets me, not only in dealing with an ex, but with anyone. I think of all the times I've met people from my past and seen them as antagonists. I know that sounds weird but I'm not finding a better word for it. They are people who I've only had one unpleasant experience with and who are now "the nutjob" or "the bigot" or "the douchebag". And they've probably experienced the same with me. Also, I probably never wrote a vitriolic letter like Tony did, but I'm sure there are things I've said and done that have hurt people and set up a label that is supported by any and all future behaviors.

The fortunate and unfortunate thing about this is that we usually don't know and don't care. If Mrs. Ford hadn't felt the need to leave the diary with Tony, he would have lived his life without knowing and without that particular sting of remorse. His discovery of the truth served to bring awareness about his life but didn't really affect the people involved in any significant way.

So all Tony is left with is the satisfaction of knowing what happened coupled with the remorse he feels for being so hurtful. But what gets me is that this realization doesn't really seem to be that important. The person who wrote that letter doesn't exist anymore and the adult who is dealing with it can't do anything about it. (hide spoiler)]

We all have this curiosity of finding out about people from our past. Are we any better for looking them up on Facebook? It is exciting when you first connect with someone and catch up, but after that, life pretty much goes on as it did, with a few more Farmville updates. With difficult relationships, I think we need to feel vindicated, and this will always come because the person already has the "fruitcake" label and anything that comes out of contacting that person will support the label. So we get the satisfaction of feeling vindicated but not the experience of the truth. (view spoiler)[ Tony had the opposite experience. He was looking for vindication and ended up finding the truth, which ultimately shined the spotlight on what he did wrong.

What I don't get is how Tony was so involved in this situation. Sure, the hateful letter he wrote was full of curses and pointed Adrian to Veronica's mom. But once there was a baby on the way, I don't see why anyone would mention Tony at all. If I think about Adrian and Veronica having a serious relationship, Adrian would probably have met Veronica's mom all the same and she probably would have had a similar approach to Adrian as she did with Tony. Them sleeping together is such a huge step that I don't see why Tony would even factor in the mathematical equation Adrian wrote. That equation written in the diary is pretty much the only reason that both Veronica and her mom would think that Tony had any stake in the matter. It also links Tony to Adrian's death in some way. Adrian killing himself makes his words even more significant. But Adrian was just wrong. No matter how much Adrian felt Tony was involved in this, he wasn't.
(hide spoiler)]

I really liked this book because Julian Barnes has a great use of language and the story unfolds nicely. But mostly because it really made me think about the main themes. I found myself thinking a lot about the past and how I perceived things in my adolescent mindset. It's been an interesting thought experiment to re-evaluate the past in the context of where my life is now.

Daniel wrote: "Fantastic book! I never would have picked this up without a recommendation so thank you!

It's interesting how this book managed to affect people at a personal level as if Tony was telling them st..."

Loving this whole post so much. The part about how old relationships can resurface as if they had happened only yesterday was so true. Thanks, Daniel!

Daniel wrote: "Fantastic book! I never would have picked this up without a recommendation so thank you!

It's interesting how this book managed to affect people at a personal level as if Tony was telling them st..."
This post essentially says everything I didn't realize I wanted to say, and better.

My less than deep thoughts that haven't already been brought up: I appreciate the use of the unreliable narrator as a storytelling device a lot. And if there was any one character that appeared wholly sympathetic, it's Margaret.

That's me contributing essentially nothing to the discussion, but then most of my thoughts were, as I said, presented better by Daniel above anyhow.
The Sense of an Ending

(Cross-posted from the Idle Forums)

Finished this book a few days ago, and I really liked it, more so after letting it settle in my brain for a while. I may reread it to see if I can pick out any more subtleties I missed.

The only weakness, to me, was the climax. It didn't see how learning that (view spoiler)[Adrian slept with Victoria's mother (hide spoiler)] added anything to the story. We already knew that Tony misremembered his own past and didn't have all the information about Adrian's or Victoria's. The reveal at the end didn't do anything to develop those ideas because they had been firmly established at that point already. It felt like, for a moment, the story turned into a soap opera. It didn't really detract from the rest of the story, but I didn't see how it contributed to it.

Maybe my opinion will change after I read it again. Overall that's a very minor complaint anyway.

If you re-read the first half, you'll notice how (view spoiler)[it parallels the throwaway example of the other kid who committed suicide (hide spoiler)].

I was impressed at how effectively the author is able to introduce the self doubt and insincerity that we all (at least I hope I am not the only other person plagued with these feelings at times) feel, and have such a hard time recognizing in most other people.

The temptation to look back at our lives is overpowering, and I imagine it grows only stronger as we age. I found myself empathizing with Tony while at same time being inwardly cringing with some of his choices.

I understand why some people might think The Sense of an Ending is a great book, and at times while reading I admired Barnes' writing skill. But as a novel it feels lacking. Perhaps it is just too subtle for my tastes or too precious, depending on my mood.

I just wrote something longer in the (Idle Thumbs forums) so I'll just write the brief version here:

As an investigation of how memory works, as a wonderfully well-written discussion of the past and what it means and how it exists and how our choices affect that, I really enjoyed the novel.

As a story, not so much. I went through a period of enjoying the book very much but was turned off at the beginning and again at the ending. I'm not talking about cheap resolutions; one of the strengths of the book is that it respects the reader, leaving a lot unresolved. In fact, leaving things unresolved suits what the book is doing thematically. I just felt the book was a little too impressed with itself, really.

As I wrote in the Idle Thumbs forums, you don't have to be over the moon in love with a book to have enjoyed the experience of reading it, and I did enjoy the experience of reading it.

John wrote: "The only weakness, to me, was the climax. It didn't see how learning that (view spoiler)[Adrian slept with Victoria's mother (hide spoiler)] added anything to the story."

To me, it drove the point of home of how your memory and view of the facts can bring you to conclusions so far away from the actual truth. (view spoiler)[Adrian turned out to have serious character flaws. Veronica had reasons to justify her guarded behavior. And Veronica's mom was predatory. (hide spoiler)] Those threads had to get tied together somehow and I think it was done well.

"apocalyptic wanking"