The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Thirteen thread for the next Presidential Series selection (John Quincy Adams).

The week's reading assignment is:

Week Thirteen - April 2nd - April 8th -> THIRTEEN p. 327 - 353

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library. Bryan's edition is ISBN: 0679404449 (hardcover)

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be your moderator for this selection as he is our lead for all Presidential selections. We hope you enjoy Week Thirteen of this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

by Paul C. Nagel

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Thirteen: Grief

Like his father before him, JQA sneaked out of Washington to avoid the inauguration of the next president. His son, George, died and JQA was devastated. There were some diversions such as Charles' marriage and establishing a Latin academy in Quincy. However, his depression grew from losing his son and the presidency. JQA agreed to stand for election to the House of Representatives and he won the election. There was talk of him being a presidential candidate for the Anti-Masons in 1832, but the party picked someone else. In his first congressional term, JQA supported protective tariffs and a national bank, fighting against President Jackson. He delivered key addresses on Lafayette, James Monroe, and against nullification.

JQA lost his brother and another son due to alcohol. He began to rely on his son, Charles, to help him out of deep financial debt. His depression gets worse as he lost sleep and thought of death. However, he began to write poetry and he was determined to look for a moral cause in Congress to improve humanity.

Very interesting that JQA left before the inauguration like his father. I remember the movie, "John Adams" and scene when he left town. Now his son does the same. Amazing.

We also see the devastation of alcohol in a family. I haven't read such a tragedy in one family like this, have others?

In this day and age, I doubt if JQA would have been deemed mentally fit to serve considering the severe depression he was under. Do you think that the author is overdoing it a bit or is this really a balanced view? It just seems awful.

Bentley wrote: "In this day and age, I doubt if JQA would have been deemed mentally fit to serve considering the severe depression he was under. Do you think that the author is overdoing it a bit or is this reall..."

Honestly, I don't think he could get elected even if he managed his depression with medication. The opposition would just rake him over the coals on this, possibly in a indirect way, though. Good question, Bentley.

I have really been asking myself how he functioned and he did in his own way contribute a great deal and had a career afterwards in Congress for 17 years! In Congress, he was chair of the Committee on Commerce and Manufactures (now Energy and Commerce), the Committee on Indian Affairs and the Committee on Foreign Affairs.

Bentley wrote: "I have really been asking myself how he functioned and he did in his own way contribute a great deal and had a career afterwards in Congress for 17 years! In Congress, he was chair of the Committe..."

Indeed, Bentley, without medication, it must have been will-power and the fact he hated the job, it truly is amazing. You wonder what he could have done if he enjoyed the job and was a good politician.

I think he took his loss in the election as a personal loss, a failure inside himself.

Anti-Masonic Party:

American political organization that rose after the disappearance in W New York state in 1826 of William Morgan. A former Mason, Morgan had written a book purporting to reveal Masonic secrets. The Masons were said, without proof, to have murdered him, and in reaction local organizations arose to refuse support to Masons for public office. In New York state Thurlow Weed and William H. Seward attempted unsuccessfully to use the movement, which appealed strongly to the poorer classes, to overthrow Martin Van Buren and the Albany Regency. Anti-Masonry spread from New York to neighboring states and influenced many local and state elections. At Baltimore, in 1831, the Anti-Masons held the first national nominating convention of any party and issued the first written party platform—innovations followed by the older parties. The vote for their presidential candidate, William Wirt, mostly hurt Henry Clay. Usually the Anti-Masons in national politics acted with the National Republican party in opposition to Jacksonian democracy, and in 1834 they helped to form the Whig party.
(Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history...)

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mas...

You know JQA and TJ were not best friends, even as a young man. I like these comments:

"He relished pointing out the errors and sins of the Virginian. 'He tells nothing but what redounds to his own credit.'" (p. 337)

My overall impression and thoughts on JQA can be summed up in a simple statement, he sought to prove his intellectual superiority at every possibility. I don't know the true psychological reasons behind this, possibly an overbearing mother, depression, or an ability to reach for what he wanted for himself. In any case, his actions led to the distinct possibility that he made made his own problems worse.

I reman in awe of the accomplishments JQA achieved and in shock at how much freedom he had as a young man, but as the book goes on, I think I've found myself exhausted by the antics. I can now understand how easily it would have been to become a political rival not based on policy, but the personality involved and the often insolent tone he undertook when working with him. I get the string feeling that he talked down to many.

As someone pointed out in the discussion of a previous chapter, people tend to be far more critical of themselves in their private writings, therefore the authors reliance on the personal journal maybe clouding my impressions, but as the book nears it's end, I'm exhausted by JQA. I feel like I've been pulled into the see-saw of his personal depression and the inability of one man to step back and look at his own accomplishments before he has another entry of self failure.

Thanks, Rodney. It does seem like same old, same old in a way. It is interesting that you say he wants to flex his intellectual muscle.

I thought his reflection on his years as president to be pretty important. He finally realized he accomplished a lot in his career even before the presidency. The author states, "He must forget public applause, he announced, and forge ahead." (p. 345)

As he enters Congress, do you think it was an important mind shift?

I read Bentley's and Bryan's and Rodney's comments and sort of have to agree but would make a couple of observations.

I think that if Roosevelt (FDR) could hide his wheelchair for so long it is not amazing that in the beginning of the 19th century JQA could have had enough privacy to avoid having his depression become so visible and so much a point - especially before Freud.

Secondly I wondered reading this chapter if possibly his emotions were mentioned so often in JQA's diaries that Nagel got a bit swept up in the current.

the vanity of JQA continues to shine thru (pg 334) it reminded me of my grandson who at 3 years would say "me me me" (sorry for the personal perspective but that is what I thought of)

I think I see JQA getting less rigid in his vanity - he can joke more about things - losing his son in a way that could reflect on his upbringing must have been tough - facing the need to surrender some financial power of his own resources to another son - these are humbling things no matter how you act.

I found the reference, that I don't think was there before, to the alcoholism in Abigail's family.

Also I noted with interersting pg 345 with the railroad accident - JQA's reaction (I guess he was never really exposed "up close & personal" to the effects of war battles) - and the reality of travel at the time. Pre steel rail cars - the industrial reality that so much of our hidden and noticed wealth comes from industrial advancement. Just a steel guy's slant.

Vince, you make a good point about how sensitive the press was then and how they valued a president's privacy unlike today.

Vince wrote: "Secondly I wondered reading this chapter if possibly his emotions were mentioned so often in JQA's diaries that Nagel got a bit swept up in the current."

Great observations, Vince, especially about Nagel. Historians are people too, and he could have taken something and run with it like JQA's emotions.

Do you think he went too far?

I have seen authors go to far and that is why I am always hesitant with psycho-history. On the one hand, I can respect that, it is part of the field. However, I have seen work that pushes the envelope too far. Authors will state something, but the issue becomes that the facts just are not there, because of a lack of primary documents. What do you do?

Bryan wrote: "Vince wrote: "Secondly I wondered reading this chapter if possibly his emotions were mentioned so often in JQA's diaries that Nagel got a bit swept up in the current."

Great observations, Vince, e..."

Hi Bryan

I don't necessarily think Nagel went too far - maybe he just have found a way to indicate how public this was.

His introdution to the book refers to the new private diaries and the title says "a private life" - it is almost as if I/ you/ we should be historian.

Then this would likely would not be the first history or biography of JQA we are reading (it is for me)and the perspective might be different.

Given the explanations I think it is OK

Thanks, Vince. I think it is one of the better psycho-histories. I have read another political biography on JQA and it was just ok:

Marie B. Hecht

By the way Bryan - a brilliant job of moderating as always. Thank you again.

Many thanks, Bentley