The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm working on a novel right now that is both Superhero and Western. Any suggestions for either genre?

Personally, I never read fiction close to what I'm writing. If I were to try I'd end up consciously writing away from what I was reading rather than writing forward with my own story.

So I'd recommend non-fiction. Morrison's Supergods, and maybe watch the Ken Burns documentary on the West.

Wild Cards for superhero. Only "western" that comes to mind is Shane! Which I think I read in middle school. Or any of the Dark Tower books, they have a western feel to them.

Blood Meridian.

The Alloy of Law comes to mind.

For Western fantasies, check out Territory, The Half-Made World, and Thirteenth Child. There's also the zombies in Seattle book Boneshaker. I can't think of any superhero westerns, except the Wild Wild West tv show, if you count superspies as superheroes.

7th Sigma is western-y (though Jumper is my favorite book of his). For more western-y stuff you could look into Steampunk. It often uses similar elements.
I can't think of any prose super hero books (unless you consider novelizations of comic book super heroes).

For superheroes, there's the following books:

Bad Power by Deborah Biancotti
Wild Cards series edited by George R.R. Martin
Masked edited by Lou Anders
Playing for Keeps by Mur Lafferty
Soon I Will Be Invincible by Austin Grossman
The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay by Michael Chabon
Devil's Cape by Rob Rogers
The Fortress of Solitude by Jonathan Lethem
From the Notebooks of Dr. Brain by Minister Faust

.Hounded by Kevin Hearne! Fantastic modern fantasy, with a talking dog who is absolutely the star of the audiobook, best performance ever

A friend of mine reads westerns and he recommends the following authors:
Ralph Compton
Ralph Cotton
William W Johnstone
Robert Randisi
Robert Parker

and for old school
Zane Grey
Louis L'Amour

the Gunslinger by Stephen King

Thanks for the suggestions! I've read a few of the superhero books suggested, and thanks Andrew for the Western suggestions from your friend! I'm also going to check out True Grit.

I've never read a western before, so I want to get an understanding of where the genre goes, to either steer clear or find a good way to mesh tropes in Superhero and Western. Superhero stuff I'm familiar with through comics and a few books, but other examples are cool to see different twists they put into the stories. I'm listening to "How To Succeed In Evil" by Patrick McLean on Podiobooks.com and it's an excellent twist on the classic superhero/villian story. It made me rethink a few angles in my own story.

I'm not too concerned with things influencing my writing. Most things Superhero take place in a modern or future setting, which this will not be. Most Westerns are "normal" people, which they will not be. I feel it's better to know the basics of the genres though before I go screwing around with them.

Kind of hard to add a "superhero" element to western without adding a SF element (lack of tech severely limits how they can get their superpowers). If you want to add a bit or "unnormal" to a western format, might I suggest a bit of video? The short-lived Legend (produced by Richard Dean Anderson of MacGyver/Stargate fame) is a western/sci-fi about a novelist that ends up partnering with an inventor (so you've got 1920-40's tech in 1890). There's also the animated Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers, which is very futuristic and sort-of superheroish (they've got implants that boost their talents, and one of them has been genetically engineered for his abilities), but has plenty of stories where the high-tech (hey, they have to get to the planet) aspects are limited (including one planet that actually outlaws "technology"). The closest I can come to an actual superhero would be Bravestarr, (not my favorite cartoon when I was growing up, but it's got a couple of memorable episodes) which is, again, futuristic, but stars a super-powered native American.

(Hmm. Just noticed the dates on this stuff. Probably should have looked at that before I started typing all this. Probably wrote your book, already. Oh, well. Since I went through the bother of typing it, I may as well post it for anyone else with a similar interest to stumble on it.)

Wendy wrote: "Hmm. Just noticed the dates on this stuff. Probably should have looked at that before I started typing all this..."

You reminded me of Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers and Bravestarr. That takes me back a few decades and puts a smile on my face. Thanks for not noticing the dates :-)

Guys you can't go down that path of video with out mentioning "The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr." It was also a short lived series, that while not 100% episodic had a pretty strong through line, that was not fully wrapped up by the end (IIRC). It also starred the chin himself, Bruce Campbell in his usual dry, oblivious but smart, and prat fall style of humor. Also his sidekick, Bowler, always reminded me a bit of a Bishop from the 90's X-men, but that might have just been me.

The only challenge to watching the series, is as far as I know it is only available on DVD, and a bit pricey. But talking about this has made me think it might still be worth getting.

John (Nevets) wrote: "Guys you can't go down that path of video with out mentioning "The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr." It was also a short lived series, that while not 100% episodic had a pretty strong through line,..."
I recall ads for it, but I never saw it, so I can't very well recommend it (or unrecommend it, for that matter). I was trying to show prior Western/SF crossovers (counting "superhero" as a sub-genre of "sci-fi") Was there any SF/superhero in that?

Sorry, didn't mean that as a complaint, but as a turn of phrase. We all have different experiences we can draw on, and this is one of mine. To be completely honest, I hadn't remembered "Legend", so thanks for mentioning that.

The main plot device for about 1/2 the series is this weird alien "orb" thing, that is very sci-fiish. Since my memory for things this old, and only seen once, is often not great, I have been jogging some of this from Wikipedia. Here is a quote from that article

"While ostensibly a Western, the series routinely includes elements of the science fiction and steampunk genres. Humor is a large part of the show; the writers attempted to keep the jokes and situations "just under over-the-top". A large number of episodes involve the Orb, a powerful device from the future. John Astin plays Professor Wickwire, an inventor who assists Brisco with anachronistic technology including diving suits, motorcycles, rockets, and airships. The search for new technology and progressive ideas, what the writers of the show called "The Coming Thing", is a central theme throughout the series."

Also the action is often over the top enough to be almost super human, but just in the action movie sense, not the comic book sense.

Here is the full link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adv....

John (Nevets) wrote: "Sorry, didn't mean that as a complaint, but as a turn of phrase. We all have different experiences we can draw on, and this is one of mine. To be completely honest, I hadn't remembered "Legend", so..."

Wasn't complaining, just said I can't recommend what I know nothing about. From the Wiki, it almost sounds like one inspired the other. Guess the early '90s were just the season for it. Come to think of it, that's about when steampunk started "getting steam," wasn't it?

Wendy wrote: "Kind of hard to add a "superhero" element to western without adding a SF element (lack of tech severely limits how they can get their superpowers)."

I’m not sure why you’re conflating high tech with superheroes, but the former is not a requirement. Plus, most superheroes, even the ones with hand-waved tech as part of their origin, are actually Fantasy.

Anyway, one doesn’t need gadgets or tech to be a superhero in the past (generic) or the Old West (specific). There are plenty of superheroes who don’t have any special abilities. Black Widow, Green Arrow, Nightwing, etc. They may use high tech weapons, but they don’t need them. Hawkeye and the Punisher would get along just fine in Deadwood circa 1870.

The obvious actual example being Zorro. He ticks all the boxes for superhero (fighting for justice outside the law, secret identity, costume, etc.) but has no tech beyond what was available in colonial California. (Being in California means that it isn’t technically a Western, either, but it’s close enough.) If one likes Westerns and superheroes, it’s hard to go wrong with Zorro. The other one, of course, is the Lone Ranger. He actually *is* a Wild West superhero.

Both Zorro and Lone Ranger are essentially updates of The Scarlet Pimpernel, who is arguably the first modern superhero of that type.

The other avenue to becoming a superhero is the supernatural. Characters like Wonder Woman, Shazam and Doctor Strange all derive their abilities from magic. There’s no reason why a superhero set in the Old West can’t be magical. There are plenty of Native American myths and cowboy tall tales which can be readily repurposed as superhero stories.

John (Nevets) wrote: "Guys you can't go down that path of video with out mentioning "The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr." It was also a short lived series, that while not 100% episodic had a pretty strong through line,..."

I viewed Brisco County Jr. as a newer version of The Wild Wild West. While there was certainly overlap with superhero stories, they were rather more closely aligned with spy adventures like James Bond and The Saint.

In look and feel The Wild Wild West was a twin to Batman, Star Trek, Get Smart and Lost in Space, which were all running concurrently. They even shared a number of actors and writers. (I’m halfway convinced that they added the T to James Kirk because Robert Conrad’s character was James T. West. In the ST pilot, Kirk’s middle initial is R. I think someone just slipped up when going between shows.)

I know this isn't completely germane, but it's related and here it goes. I was listening to some of my music in the car the other day and one of my favorite Seatbelts songs popped up "Diggin'". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yimu1...

I always thought it was a great combination of modern country music with a sci-fi twist. Also depending how you interpret the woman that is being sung about, it could be a bit superhero/ alienish feel to it.

I know there are many other Seatbelt and Yoko Kanno fans on here, and some have even seen them perform live, so I thought this link would be appreciated.

Trike wrote: "Wendy wrote: "Kind of hard to add a "superhero" element to western without adding a SF element (lack of tech severely limits how they can get their superpowers)."

I’m not sure why you’re conflatin..."

I said "hard," not "impossible." And while there are many unpowered costumed adventurers populating both Marvel and DC (who co-own the trademark on Superheroes--yes, it's a trademark) the general understanding of "superhero" is someone who has abilities that aren't possible for the typical human. Batman may not have any paranormal abilities, and (at least in the early years) not be terribly advanced in his gadgets, but how many people have the resources to put it all together without anyone being the wiser?

Punisher would be an excellent example of "hard." Imagine how many revolvers he'd have to tote for want of a high-capacity magazine!

You don’t have to imagine The Punisher in the West, just watch The Outlaw Josey Wales. He has exactly the same backstory as Frank Castle and goes about seeking retribution in the exact same way. The lack of automatic weapons is accounted for and there’s even a scene with a Gatling gun that plays out exactly like the Punisher taking out the Mafia.

How on earth has Jonah Hex not been mentioned yet?

Here's a western series with a superhero twist that flies a little under the radar, the Doc Spectros novels

https://www.goodreads.com/series/2007...

Spectros is a shapeshifting magician who turns into a deadly gunfighter when the going gets tough.

The Spectros books have all been reprinted as ebooks by Paul Lederer who originally wrote them as Logan Winters.

https://www.goodreads.com/series/2007...

Richard wrote: "How on earth has Jonah Hex not been mentioned yet?"

Apparently all his fans are over on the fantasy western thread.

Ben wrote: "I'm working on a novel right now that is both Superhero and Western. Any suggestions for either genre?"

The Alloy of Law by Brandon Sanderson

Its literally superheroes in a late 1800's / early 1900's era. Technically its the 4th book in the Mistborn series but its also the start of a new trilogy set hundreds of years after the first three books. Thus you can start with it and mostly follow without problem, a few easter egg type things will slip by but otherwise you'll be fine.

The concept of all the Mistborn books is that people can gain superpowers by eating metal dust. Each type of metal gives a specific type of power and most people can only do one type though a rare few can do two and even rarer few can do all of them. Allow of Law is about a guy who is a "twinner" meaning he can do two metals: one allows him to push metal away from him and the other allows him to adjust his weight. So he does things like drop a coin on the ground while reducing his weight and then pushing on the coin. Because the coin can't go anywhere he ends up pushing himself into the sky as if he's flying. Other times he makes himself super heavy to fight or pushes against bullets flying at him to deflect them, etc.