His Dark Materials discussion

Anyone else confused about the ending of Amber Spyglass? I keep re-reading the ending and it makes me mad everytime. I still don't understand the whole "Republic of Heaven." What is the meaning of it? And what happened to Lyra's betrayal? Was it the whole fruit giving it to Will? Or was it falling in love? And what are they supposed to do now in their world so that they'll be able to see each other again? Ugh! I don't understand! Someone clarify for me!!!!! :)

I feel like the book was extremely rushed. Everything seemed all over the place, like there was no meaning to any of it. I hope you guys can help me make sense of it because I've been trying to...

i need to re-read these apparently... lol, i dont member ANY of it! *puts on to-read list*

Well, I hope you do soon! :)

I agree that The Amber Spyglass was rushed in some places and the plot wasn't super smooth, but I have to say, I still loved it. The ending was a bit confusing. I only read it over for the third time a couple weeks ago, but I don't know all the answers to those questions.

I think the "Republic of Heaven" is just the name of the society (not a group society, I mean what kind of world.) Asriel wanted to create (and the one lyra will create) - worlds that are democracies because the Church does not control the actions of the people.

About Lyra's betrayal...I'm definitely not sure, but I think it is leaving Pantalaimon before entering the world of the dead. On pg. 285, right after Lyra leaves Pantalaimon it says, "And thus the prophecy that the Master of Jordan College had made to the Librarian, that Lyra would make a great betrayal and it would hurt her terribly, was fulfilled.' I guess she sort of also betrays Roger, but that was in the first book, so maybe it doesn't count. I think Lyra falling in love with Will is the "fall" she makes as Eve.

Maybe the intent of Will's and Lyra's seperation is that they will not physically see each other again. It is a sacrifice they make for the good of the universe. There might be some loopholes, but Xaphania says that the angels will close all the windows and Will breaks the knife. Xaphania also mentions Will and Lyra can learn the form of seeing that uses imagination. They might be able to communicate that way. I have no idea.

I think I agree with Pandy on most of that. I think I read an interview with Pullman talking about the whole "betrayal" thing and leaving Pan behind was something to do with it, but he wasn't really clear and it was a long time ago, so I may be forgetting something. but yea, I think Pandy is right.

I suppose parts of that book were confusing, but even if it was rushed, (which I was way too into it to even notice), I loved the book!

Me too! I don't see why some people who liked the first two, didn't like this one.

i liked them all, i just dont remember details, lol!

I see about the "Republic of Heaven" but what are they supposed to do is what I'm confused about. Pullman didn't explicitly say but merely skimmed the surface.

As for the betrayal, in the beginning Pullman wrote that Mary will help her with her betrayal but if what Pandy wrote was true, Mary wasn't at all involved with Lyra's betrayal. She didn't even know anything about it until they found the ghosts coming out in the other world.

Also, Pan said something about Pullman's interview that the "betrayal" was leaving Pantalaimon behind. I understand that was a huge betrayal, but still doesn't coincide with what Pullman was saying in the beginning that Mary will be a catalyst for it.

And if Adam and Eve are the personification of Lyra and Will, then what big "fall" did they experience? They just merely set the world back in balance by closing all the windows. Wouldn't that be making it right instead of wrong like what the Church is saying?

About what The Republic of Heaven is exactly supposed to do, I'm not sure. Asriel's first step was to try and overthrow the Kingdom of Heaven by waging war on the Authority and his forces. Even though the Church is not really gone at the end of the trilogy, I don't think getting rid of the Magisterium is the only other part of building the Republic. Lyra and Will learn at the end of The Amber Spyglass that Asriel would have failed anyway because each person has to work to build The Republic of Heaven in their own world. Maybe it means they each have to do the best they can for their worlds in their own ways - Lyra says using the ideals of hard work, cheerfulness, kindness, and patience. (I know that this doesn't really help because it is still is pretty general, but as you say, Pullman didn't explicitly say what it is. Maybe it's more of an idea than something concrete.)

I know Mary's role is to play the temptress/serpent for Lyra, which leads to her fall, but where does it say she is supposed to help with Lyra's betrayal? The first time the betrayal is mentioned is in The Golden Compass, when the Master tells the Librarian about it. The master doesn't say anything about an additional person involved. The only reason I think the betrayal is leaving Pan behind is because of the sentence after it that I posted above. Something else about the betrayal might be mentioned somewhere else in the books, but I don't remember.

Well, regarding Lyra's fall, what the Church says is certainly not true. I believe Lyra's "fall" is realizing her love for Will. Mary "tempts" her with her story about how she stopped being a nun because she realized the joy of love and that all physical pleasures were not evil. Lyra's and Will's love causes Dust to flow into the world once more. Dust is what seperates children from adults because children, who do not attract as much Dust, are innocent without knowing about the world, while adults are more conscious beings, aware of both the wonders and evil things in the world. This is against the wishes of the Chuch because they want to control everyone's lives, keeping them ignorant and docile, like the nurses at Bolvangar who had undergone intercision.