The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Though Kate's plotting with Densher for Milly's money has been heavily discussed already, within these chapters she states point blank her intentions that Densher should marry Milly in order to allow Kate and Densher to get their hands on her money.

As much as already been debated about Kate's morality in this scheme, we have not said much about Densher's role in this.

Here we see him as reluctant to agree to the scheme.

Book 8 is where I started hating Densher intensely. What a cad! What I see is Densher consumed with his intent to "bring his mistress to terms".

I read that first page of Book 8 three or four times. It strikes me that the reason Densher wants to move to a different establishment---just like he wanted to move last time he was in Venice---was that he wants someplace a little more....discreet. "He recalled with tenderness these shabby but friendly asylums" (359).

He finds quarters "far down the Grand Canal, which he had once occupied for a month".....with a growth of initiation into the homelier Venetian mysteries"(359).

Well, as i read that, "the homelier Venetian mysteries" in the shably part of town, refer to Densher's enjoyment of the prostitutes of Venice.

I was googling around, and one could cross the Grand Canal to enter the city's legal red light district.

I kept wondering if those "little white papers" were advertisements for places one might meet one's mistress.

This chapter just seems to full of Densher's need for sex.

"There glowed for him in fact a kine of rage at what he wasn't having [ie, Kate]. He has "a resentment....begotten [nice word choice] truly y the very impatience of desire [for Kate]" (362).

We see again in Book 8 that Densher has no real interest in Milly. No attraction. Early, remember, there was the comment that he saw her as a bore, but could see that she might be a convenience for Kate and him.

Now again, we're let know that there is no physical attraction for him towards Milly. "At the time, in her presence, it was a simple as sitting with his sister might have been, and not, if the point were urged, very much more thrilling" (361).

Again, such an absolute cad. AND a bully. Unless he's a complete idiot, he must be aware that he and Kate are aiming for Milly's money. And afterwards, he and Kate can be together, because they will be able to afford to marry with Milly's money, Maud be damned. Indeed, Kate has told him repeatedly that she's going to try for both: for him and money.

But Densher, cunning little animal that he is, realize that NOW is the time for him to make his blackmail push. Either because Kate truly does want the money---and so she can't pull out at this point.

Or, because Kate truly cares for Milly and knows that (Book 7) if Milly discovers the truth that everything will fall down on her [Milly] like an avanlanche...it would kill Milly---and so Kate can't putt out at this point.

So of course it's the perfect time for Densher. He finally has leverage. He's going to prove that he's the man. Obviously after Milly's death he would money and sex with Kate. But no, he's going to prove his superiortiy to Kate.

And oh, isn't he pleased with himself that Kate isn't seeing how he's setting her up. "she was==and this was what most struck him- sufficiently gratified and blinded by it not to know, from the fasle quality of his response, from his tone and his very look.....that he had answered .... almost shamelessly...It gave give the advantage he had been planning for---that is if she too were not darkly dishonest" (364).

That "too" tells us that Densher recognizes that he IS being darkly dishonest. But Kate doesn't see it, because she is NOT darkly dishonest.


And Densher, so pleased with his nefarious plans, "by which he could feel himself the stronger" (365). Oh, boy, is Maud ever right. There's nothing "magnificent" about Densher.

God! What a base man! He pretends that he wants to invite Milly. Ha! "Whatever in life he had recovered his old rooms for, he had not recovered them to receive Milly Theale" (365).

Oh, Densher is happy with his plans. "fully hardened and fully base" (365).

Personally, I think James' word choice there was purposeful. Densher is happy with his plans. And Densher's member is "fully hardened" as thinks on this plans.

Later, in Book 9, James again chooses a word with sexual connotations. Densher is thinking of how well his plan worked to force Kate to come to his rooms:

"and all erect before him....was the fact of the gained success that this represented" (399). Again, I believe it was Densher's member which was "all erect before him."

How about all Densher's talk of "honor" as he's manipulating Kate? What a reprehensible man.

I found it interesting that this part of the book is set in Venice.

City of intigue, of secrets, and also famous for masks. There is a scene, Book 7, I think, describing what a relief it is for Milly to take her mask off with Kate....but that there is still the unspoken secret in the air between them....so...Kate and Milly have masks below their masks.

Adelle -- I have been gone for a few days on family affairs, but have been able to slip in a little reading here and there. In that disjointed contact with the text, I very much had the sense that James's word choices often had sexual connotations, even if that was not the primary meaning in the context itself. Then I remembered that James dictated much of this text, and I wondered how that influenced his word choices and what, if anything, might be implied.

That's a nice point. I can't recall for certain, but I think his secretary was male.

Well, for what it's worth, you know some of his letters were quite tongue in cheek ... And rather suggestive. I don't know whether they were composed by James and physically written by the secretary during the period James's hand was bothering him.

But we know that word choice was important to James. Book nine, iii, Densher: "you make me feel - as if I had been wretchedly waiting for you.

...she (Mrs. Stringham) had caught at his word...'Have you been wretched?'"

And then, remember, one reason James was glad this book was not being serialized first was because he wouldn't't have to keep the writing as...non sexual...as he would have had to for the magazine readers.

I have been trying to reread this section. When I first read it I have to say I did not really pick up on the sexual connotations and what may be suggested about Densher's personality but upon rereading I can see how some of the language does seem to allude to very sexual connotations.

I always find dealing with this in literature to be difficult because there are points in which one wonders if they are in fact reading too much into something, or if indeed it is really there. There are times when I do wonder to myself if something was really intended to be a sexual allusion or if that is just how I myself am reading it. And it is even more difficult when dealing with the Victorians when much of anything relating to sex has to be hidden and so it is made even less clear and all the more elusive.

I quite agree with your comments about sexual allusions, Silver -- both sides of the coin.

Another aspect that I found interesting was a critic that compared the writing to a fairy tale in terms of the story's relationship to truth. That is, rather than being truly realistic or being "magical realism" or some other form, the suggestion was that WotD has elements of a fairy tale, such as a "princess" (so designated by Mrs. Stringham) and characters personifying good and evil in various guises surrounding her (rather like Snow White or Cinderella). When I first encountered the description, it rather intrigued me. As I think about it and re-read, I am not so certain just how insightful or accurate such a characterization is. Anyone else have reactions or comments on ways of characterizing reality that the text represents?

Lily wrote: "I quite agree with your comments about sexual allusions, Silver -- both sides of the coin.

Another aspect that I found interesting was a critic that compared the writing to a fairy tale in terms o..."

That is an interesting thought about the fairy tale, and to an extent I can see where the idea is coming from though I do consider James to be a realist, there are elements of the fairy tale within the work, and I know writers at this time were influenced by fairy tales as it was in the 19th century that they began to be transcribed into print.

What you say does remind me of a quote of Densher's when he is reflecting upon Milly:

He continued to see her as he had first seen her--that remained ineffaceably behind. Mrs. Lowder, Susan Shepard, his own Kate, might, each in proportion, see her as a princess, as an angel, as a star, but for him luckily, she hadn't as yet complications to any point of discomfort: the princess, the angel, the star were muffled over ever so lightly and brightly, with the little American girl who had been kind to him in New York...

In this way I wonder if perhaps Densher does sort of deromanticize her (which in its own way is ironic since he is supposed to be courting her) and puts her back into the perspective of reality. Maybe others have read too much into her, expect too much out of her, or perhaps at least in the cast of Kate and to some degree Mrs. Lowder, elevate her as something ethereal, beyond human as a way of making up for, justifying their wanting her to be their sacrifice.

Has anyone seen any feminist criticism of WotD, written since the late 60's and beyond?

I have not found such so far (except the one article I have posted in the resources thread), and I am wondering how such critics would view particularly the roles and characters of Kate and Milly.

My own gut says that post-1970's this novel comes across considerably differently than it would have prior to that time, but I have difficulty in articulating just how. (Part of it may be related to the means of acquiring material wealth that began to open up to women in that period, but possibly another aspect is changing attitudes towards passivity and action as feminine versus masculine traits.)

A conundrum that remains for me is Densher's conviction that he could not be adequately materially responsive to Kate's expectations on the basis of his own talents and opportunities. Maybe I just don't comprehend the scope of Kate's expectations and/or the limitations of the journalist's profession at the time.

As sort of a very contorted, even perverse, feminist question, I'll ask, why might it have been, at least at some level, socially acceptable for Lord Mark to marry Milly for her money, whether she was ill or no, but it was fairly clearly objectionable for Kate to do so, albeit by proxy.

Lily wrote: "As sort of a very contorted, even perverse, feminist question, I'll ask, why might it have been, at least at some level, socially acceptable for Lord Mark to marry Milly for her money, whether she was ill or no, but it was fairly clearly objectionable for Kate to do so, albeit by proxy."

I think part of the reason is that Lord Mark has title and social standing, prestige which would have been valued higher than wealth. But in Kate marrying Densher, Densher has nothing to offer in the material sense, he is socially a nobody, and Kate is not independently wealthy enough to make up for his own complete lack in standing or wealth.

Also though as a man Lord Mark may have more freedom to do as he pleases than Kate we do not in fact have any of his own relatives present in the story to display how they may have felt about him making a match with Milly, as we have with Aunt Maud and Kate.

We do not know how truly socially acceptable it would have been for Lord Mark to do so, only that he has greater means to do as he pleases regardless of how others may look upon it.

Silver wrote: "...We do not know how truly socially acceptable it would have been for Lord Mark to do so, only that he has greater means to do as he pleases regardless of how others may look upon it."

Bur we do have stories like Edith Wharton's The Buccaneers (as well as real life biographies) which make legend of the use of marriage by European aristocracy to gain access to the rapidly expanding American wealth of the late nineteenth century.

Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "...We do not know how truly socially acceptable it would have been for Lord Mark to do so, only that he has greater means to do as he pleases regardless of how others may look upon i..."

I think that one of the main differences between Lord Mark marrying Milly, and the Kate/Densher marriage to Milly is the fact that Milly is Kate's friend, and Kate is setting up to deceive her friend and manipulate her feelings purely in order to gain her wealth in order that she herself might be able to marry the man whom Milly herself loved.

While with Lord Mark there is not that same level of deception involved. While he might not out and out state to Milly that he want's to marry her for her money I think his intentions are clear enough.

Plus there is the fact that he does bring his title and social standing to the table. While he will be gaining Milly's wealth for his own benefit, he will also be rising Milly up above her class and giving her social standing.

Kate/Densher having nothing to offer, so because Densher has no wealth or title, in his marriage to Milly both him and Kate would be little more than gold diggers.

But though Milly might have greater wealth than Lord Mark because of his title and family name, Milly would still be seen as marrying up. And in the eyes of society her wealth could make up for her own lack of social status.

at 12 Silver wrote: "Lord Mark...We do not know how truly socially acceptable it would have been for Lord Mark to do so, only that he has greater means to do as he pleases regardless of how others may look upon "

Made me think about Winston Churchill's parents. His father, Randolph Churchill, had social standing...but desparately needed money to finance his estate and his life style. His mother, an American, came from a fabulously wealthy family.

From what I've read, there were any number of British titles marrying American women with money just prior to the turn of the century.

Maybe they were like Kate, capable of doing what they had to do...ie...marrying Americans who had money.

Silver wrote: "Plus there is the fact that he does bring his title and social standing to the table. While he will be gaining Milly's wealth for his own benefit, he will also be rising Milly up above her class and giving her social standing.."

Except....I'm not sure how much social standing Lord Mark actually has. He has no money. He's lost his seat and seemingly has no prospects at present. Kate says, "He's the best we could do" which makes me think his standing is questionable.

And, too, while the English might or might not think that Milly would gain class or standing through marriage to Lord Mark, I don't think that Milly is escpecially impressed with titles or social standing....so from Milly's point of view she would be gaining nothing.... She would be aware, and in fact is aware, that it's the very fact that she hasn't long to live that makes her attractive to Lord Mark....

! There are apparently 10 Books, not 9!

Will write up and post on Book 10 thread
1) thoughts in support of Kate
2) thoughts on why I think Densher acted as he did
3) thoughts on what I think James meant to convey regarding Milly.

DUDE. Do the Milly thing, or don't do the Milly thing. Do not dither about with doublespeak. Do not use it as an excuse to extort Kate into having sex with you. In 1898 (or any time).