Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

I just want the Truth. Which joyfully seems to offend just about everyone. Weird eh?

Although lately Apologetics is not really appealing to me. I want to get beyond all the information. The philosophy and Spiritual Blindness that surrounds us. Facts are nice. But everyone has mountains of the stuff. They sure are a good place to start though.

lol, Rod! Maybe we should back clear up to Pilate's question:

What is truth?

Yes indeed Lee. Everyone thinks they have the truth (I bet even Pilates).

For the last few years I've been going through numerous Christian sects and major religions and seeing if their belief system holds up to all the challenges I can throw at them. So far - only the Bible is holding strong.
(although the Hindu's Monkey god who goes around stealing other deities wives is just ahead of atheism for being factual). :)

Well, that's kinda what I mean by 'what is truth'. What does it mean for the Bible to "hold strong?" For example, if you believe the creation story literally, it contradicts what we know about evolution and the age of the earth, which would make it pretty hard for it to hold up to inquiry. But if you take any portion of the story allegorically, who says we shouldn't do the same for the stories of other Christian sects and major religions? In other words, be careful who you throw your challenges at ... they might be mistakenly interpreting their own scripture literally.

The best part about the word of God is:
The literal parts should be taken literally, the poetic parts should be read as poetry, the Wisdom parts should be read as wisdom etc. You get the idea.

If the Bible says God created the world in 6 days: Then I have to accept that as fact until proven otherwise. I also have to seriously evaluate the words of God - and most of all be skeptical of those opposing God's word.
If most of the atheistic scientists in the world quickly agree that the Bible is wrong and invalid...we Christians should quickly investigate the opposite of what they claim. That's most likely where the truth is. But not always.

Is God's word unclear? No, its brilliant.

The problem with scientists is they are only as good as their imagination. If you can't imagine it - then you can't explain it or study it properly.
Who says God did not make the universe already in motion? We are assuming this thing was created and then turned on. If its in motion that erases all the time issues and scientific finds.

Do scientists lie? NO, but they have emotional, sexual, immature, selfish desires just like the rest of us: and this will come out in their work.

I grew up in a rather conservative church, you could probably say fundamentalist. Over the years I had lots of questions, the same ones most people have. When I discovered Christian apologetics (Lee Strobel, William Lane Craig, etc.) I felt like my faith finally rested on solid ground.

This began a time in my life when I almost felt like I was searching for the perfect argument. If I could answer all the questions I could convince anyone of the validity of faith. Yet I eventually learned a few things. You can't argue anyone into faith, there is a lot more going on then just logic, if it is so obvious then anyone with a brain would believe it.

Realizing that quite brilliant people do not find the arguments persuasive that I do was a turning point. Also, realizing that some of what apologists defend is probably not worth defending (why spend so much time opposing evolution, will that lead people to Jesus? How come so many apologists also seem to want me to be a political conservative?) was also a turning point.

I think of apologetics as Anselm or Augustine or both say: "faith seeking understanding". I think one of the greatest values apologetics have is helping Christians be more confident in their faith: lots of very smart people have dealt with these tough questions and still have faith. I do think apologetics have a use in discussions with non-believers, I am just not as arrogant as I used to, I no longer think that if they just "get it" they'll change their minds.

That is my not-so-brief answer to the original question.

Great stuff David. I too went through an apologetics learning curve. I actually thought people would appreciate well thought out answers.

Now I know people only appreciate THEIR well thought (or poorly thought)answers. Pride trumps all.

I mostly believe apologetics is necessary for strengthening Christians. We need to know that our God is logical and trustworthy: Unlike the Monkey deity of Hinduism that goes around stealing other peoples wives. It would be fun to chat with a Hindu apologetics scholar.

Tozer is pretty smart. It is possible to be too defensive while defending the faith.

The hard part is not to tear people down while attempting to undo falsehood. Nobody likes being wrong - it's embarrassing.

I love apologetics because it's a search and defense of Truth. The more I learn about Truth in order to defend it (in the hopes of sharing Truth as truth to unbelievers), the more I love God. Because that should be all of our ends in life, this has turned out to be one of my means of reaching a deeper love for God; as well as to fulfill the Great Commission. I don't see myself going to Ivy League schools like today's top apologists, but if I can affect my vicinity's worldviews and expose them in comparison to God, then I hope that God will say "Well done my good and faithful servant." To hear those words would bring tears to my eyes, and I hope to one day hear them. So I'm pursuing philosophy and apologetics! :)

What's funny is almost all the posts in these that I've been commenting in are like from months to a year ago hahaha

I love apologetics because it's something that not everyone is getting into; mostly because not everyone puts their beliefs #1 in their lives.

I also want to make sure I know what I know is true before I get thrust into situations where I'm in the minority; which seems like this group at times. ;)

I look forward to some great discussions, and hopefully I can learn something knew from everybody hear.

Caleb - be prepared to be in the minority no matter what your position. We (OK, me) sadistically enjoy isolating newbies on an island to watch them squirm (and hopefully, grow). It's one of the more endearing aspects of our Christianity!

Well Robert, I'm slowly beginning to figure that out. Even though I'm a "newbie" I'm gonna try my best to learn from you guys as to what is truth and what is false, matching everything up against the Bible. It is of course our Christian beliefs in a book.

Caleb - if you start from the premise that everything we say is rigidly self-serving, you will be able to pick up a few useful maxims, some of which may even line up with Christianity. You're already wise enough to check all assertions against the Scriptures so you should fare well amongst the sharks.

I'm trying my best. While I won't agree with everyones opinions, I'll respect them nonetheless and see what grain of truth, little or big, I can pull out of every conversation.

Rod - maybe we're going at this wrong. Perhaps the correct procedure isn't to scurry around snatching up Truths from all walks of life and then trying to unify them into a coherent whole. What if we make a concerted effort to isolate the linchpin, cornerstone Truth on which all others depend and then overturn heaven and earth in an unrelenting effort to discover the unassailable root of that one thing? Or is that what we're doing with Jesus?

Probably this is much more in line with Don Quixote or Monty Python's Holy Grail!

I never get bored of comparing everything to the Bible. Even Monty Python's The Holy Grail. :D

Hi Guys,

I have been a hitherto silent member, but while recovering from the flu, I had time to read thru lots of interesting posts here in this group. Here is my answer to this question, including some background on me.

At age 52, I have been following Jesus for five years now, and have fallen in love with God's word. I am almost finished reading thru the bible for the 5th time. (I hope you won't take that as a boast on my part, but only toward the powerful appeal of God's Word). After moving to Oregon this summer and with no TV, no radio, no Internet, no friends and no hubby half the time (he's transitioning from his old job) I spent hours in the word every evening. Rather than being lonely, it was an awesome time of regeneration for me. (Glad to say that I've made some good friends and found a great bible believing church too.)

I say all this to lead into the reason I find apologetics necessary. As much as I love the Word, I have many times found myself in need of a response to a colleague or acquaintance throwing out what I consider to be falsehood against the bible, at the same time knowing that they won't accept a response in the manner of "Well, God says in 1 Timothy..."

Apologetics have given me some logical rebuttals to those comments, that I pray will bring some thought and consideration from my unbelieving friends. (That said, I agree with the gentleman who said apologetics never saved anyone.) But when used as a response and in a loving manner, apologetics can bring about a wonderful discussion, allowing unbelievers to see that becoming a Christian didn't require me to trade in my brain at the door. And often in the midst of those discussions, I'm able to bring in some bible verses too.

Hopefully that makes sense. I still have a bit of a fever.

Your no longer incognito friend,

Julie

Julie - good post, keep on reading and adding to your Faith. Certainly becoming a Believer does not require you to check your brain at the door. You do acquire a new Master, though, and He has some pretty specific obligations for you to live by. One would be to not comprise Christian principles by chatting it up with unbelievers who are only looking for a chink in your armor so they can label you a false prophet. This is a danger of apologetics - an eager beaver substitutes "defending the Faith" for spreading the Good News. I may be the gentleman your are citing who said apologetics never saved anyone although I think I phrased it "no one ever comes to Jesus by reason alone." Please don't place me in the anti-apologetics camp, as I would be at least in favor of the scientific aspect of it (the latest scientific trends all point towards an omnipotent Creator, although atheistic scientists are loathe to admit it), I just see limited utility for most of its concepts.

This was a great post PuppityPup: (here's a quote)
" But when used as a response and in a loving manner, apologetics can bring about a wonderful discussion, allowing unbelievers to see that becoming a Christian didn't require me to trade in my brain at the door."

I also think it's fair to say "logic alone does not bring anyone to salvation."

It's an interesting thought that Jonah didn't really use any Apologetics in his Nineveh ministry. Just a theological SMACKDOWN!

I see apologetics as a necessary TOOL of ministry though. Just selling people blind faith is dangerous and easily dismissed. (Every religion has an almost equal claim.)

I began to wonder today if life is better as a Christian. I mean, what Christian would not agree? Wouldn't that be convincing enough ... that your life will be better if you follow Jesus? To that end, isn't one's personal story more effective than logical argument?

I think also of those who stray from Christianity because they lose their faith. Doesn't it seem more likely that they simply lost their joy ... lost their interest in a Christian lifestyle? Unless that happens, such people would continue to embrace Christianity for humanitarian reasons even after their beliefs change.

I guess I'd conclude that apologetics is useful in justifying an already-made choice to follow Jesus--if a person needs that sort of justification--but it's hardly effective as a tool to entice someone to be a Christian.

Thanks Lee: I do enjoy hearing people's personal stories. (usually they are severely lacking in God's Truth.) Usually they go: "I was bad, now i'm good - and as long as God keeps the goodtimes rolling I'll remain a Christian.)
I fail to see a whole lot of that in my Bible.


To most of the world life is WORSE as a Christian.

To die a martyr's death for God's Glory is a blessing. Or to live a long abundant life sharing his truth in a hostile world is also a Blessing for God's Glory.

If people just want a more comfortable lifestyle: go find another religion.

Lee - Christians don't actually lose their faith, it just gets transferred to the back burner by temptation. Let's face it - sin can be a helluva lot of FUN! And, if there's a lot of fun from doing some, there must be an unlimited amount of mirth from doing a surplus. That's where the lost lamb usually gets in big trouble and can, chastened and repentant, return a good bit wiser to the fold.

As one who used to have faith, I find that characterizing a little offensive.

Lee - either you never really had faith or you've never really lost it.

I began reading the Bible from beginning to end about 10 months ago. I am almost finished with the Book of Revelation.

Apologetics can help you learn more about God's Word. There is so much in the Bible that much of what I have read, I have forgotten, that is why when I am done I will then go onto a more in-depth study.

Apologetics can add to what you have already learned and I believe one should be in God's Word on a daily basis with anything that is biblically based and Apologetics are, if you are at the right place. It supports Christianity and the Church. By the church I don't mean a building. I mean the Universal Christian Church of God's followers.

Apologetics also answers questions about other religions as well and why they are hypocritical and not Scripture based.

Judy - there are plenty of hypocrits to go around, both in and out of Christianity. This board is about evenly split on the value of apologetics. Some think it extremely worthwhile, others feel it is a bit of a detriment (I'm in the latter camp).

I love the way you approach apologetics Judy.

I see it as knights in armor going to war to defend a Kingdom. Love is a weapon as well.

OMG - now we've sunk to sentimentality! Pass me the tissue box, please.

Apologetics is a branch of theology that deals with defending or proving Christianity. For this reason it is needed and is of good value.

I have been to a good site on it and when I find the link I will post it. It is very interesting.

Judy - I'd like to see your link. I fear I've become cynical. "Love" has stretched to epic proportions. Just last night I learned from a commercial that the perfect man always picked up a rescue puppy on his way home.

Robert I assume that most of us would take the Biblical explanation of LOVE over that of television commercials. (I could be wrong?!)

lol

Ja!Ha! Absolutely Rod, but even in the church "love" gets stretched into some very unbiblical areas.

Few seem able to balance Love & Justice the way God does.

I don't think God "balances" love and justice very well at all. On the cross Jesus, whom orthodox Christians believe is God in the flesh, died for sinners. While we were still his enemies, God became human and died for us. To me, grace is proof that love and justice are not balanced, but that love is far greater. Don't take this to mean I don't believe in justice (or judgment). I just think you have to shrink the crucifixion and resurrection to balance them.

David - God "balances" love and justice perfectly well, just not in this world for mortals to experience. Most of the "enemies" of God became that way because of love - love of idols. Justice for their inequities is not forthcoming in our physical environment; in fact, it is often applauded. The Scriptures are very plain about what is appropriate love and what is sinful love and ethereal justice will be meted out accordingly.

I'm not following, Robert. Who would you consider an enemy of God? What what idol(s) do they love?

Traditional christianity (laying aside all my questions about traditional christianity) says that our sins deserve death (hell even) but Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. Grace overwhelms justice. Even as Calvinists say - some get justice, some get grace. The fact that any get grace tips the scales, imo, out of balance.

At any rate, I'm not really interested in arguing this one as I guess its just a matter of preference.

"What is truth," is a fair question, but one has to ask "What truth am I looking for?" If you're looking for "truth" to bring comfort in the here and now, then you can it anywhere because it's relative and ever changing; within this context (in my opinion).But if you're looking for everlasting Truth where the interpretations may change but the core message does not, then there's only one absolute Truth. That is why Christianity triumphs (in my opinion)because the core never changes. The is focus is on Jesus and not the interpretation of Jesus, which is unique in itself because of the "Me" and "I am" statements He makes. As far as "Why apologetics," well I had a conversation like this one with my Pastor and he ended the conversation with "You'd like apologetics."

Good thought Anthony, and welcome. I agree with you like 95% :)

I shy away from saying "Christianity triumphs" simply because I tend to see "Christianity" as one religion among many and like every other religion, it is far from perfect. I don't try to argue that Christianity as a religion is the best because it seems like just counting body bags (have we killed less people in our God's name?).

I also think this diminishes Jesus Christ as we make our faith just one of many religions. Like you said, the focus is on Jesus. I would argue that our religion is flawed (though I would suggest that our religion still is closer to the truth then other religions are, as it is the religion that explicitly follows God in the flesh...we still don't have it all figured out though). While Christianity is a flawed human religion, Jesus is the unique savior, God in human form.

Lee - I put enemies in quotations because I was referring to David's, use of it in Msg. #37 - it isn't the terminology I would have used otherwise. Love of idols would be any entity that exceeds the individual's love of God. The most notorious are money, fame, power, possessions, sex, substance abuse, gambling, and food. This can extend into hobbies (e.g. video games, golf), ideas (politics, competing religions, Satan worship, life-encompassing philosophies), or escapist modes (UFOs, Tarot Cards, etc.) Conceivably, if one loves reading the Bible more than the God who is responsible for its content, that is idol worship.

Anhony - you're going to find some characters here that have decided the end game is Jesus Loves Everyone, period. So any behavior done in the name of "love" is not only perfectly normal, but condoned by the Son (yes, this includes homosexuals, child rapists, necrophiliacs and any pervert who can justify his excesses with the word "love" loosely attached to motives). So much for sin. Needless to say this takes considerable rejiggering on their part of the "core message" you think is inviolable so be prepared to be presented with an interpretation of the Scriptures straight out of OZ.

David,

You're right, "triumphs" was a poor word to use. Needless to say, Christianity does set itself apart from other religions that are out there.

Robert,

That's why I said view(s)/interpretation(s) change. Nevertheless though, you have to take the good with bad. I do get a bit tired of hearing the "love message" all the time, I often think of it as "love with stipulations" because like anything else there should be a character change (repentance), along with the Christian walk (something I'm trying to adapt to); like Paul or St. Augustine.

David quote:
"I don't think God "balances" love and justice very well at all."

I thought that was a deep and brilliant comment David. It actually made me think about how far Love, Grace & Mercy are applied to us over absolute cosmic justice. Very cool.
And some people claim God is a tyrant?! "Sheeesh!"

Don't back down Anthony: Christianity indeed Trumps/Triumphs/Kicks Butt/Truth...

God has no tolerance for conflicting religions or idols. The Bible never kindly makes friends with false claims and demonic deities.

Apologetics is the DEFENSE of God's Truth and Word. (with love of course. But not tolerance or respect for lies.)
Some people here still haven't figured out what that CORE you mentioned is. You should explain it to them - it's very important.

Really and truly, if anyone has read the Bible he/she should already know the core/message. The gist of it that we're fallen and no amount of: money, rituals, community service hours, meditation, knowledge, or abject denial of our self and surroundings can help us. However, acceptance in the acts and message of Jesus can bring us out of our fallen state, once we're out of that fallen state, and then miraculous things will happen to and through us.

Anthonywilson wrote: "" If you're looking for "truth" to bring comfort in the here and now, then you can it anywhere because it's relative and ever changing"

Comfort is hardly a prerequisite for truth. Delusions often bring more peace and comfort.