Ender's Shadow discussion

Whats your comment on the level of cussing in the series?

what do you mean?

If you read this series, you would notice a lot of the characters cuss a lot.

It's almost always in another language and OSC said that the Enderverse books were never intended to be children's books. Most PG13 movies have worse though.

I'd think you would be more concerned about children being murdered by children than swearing. It's definitely a book for a more mature audience.

The book is about people in the military. If you've ever been in or near the military, OSC went really light. And I second Txteclipse.

I cursed more in Cub Scouts than the kids in this book. I think the author does a good job of portraying the group of children playing adults by being tough & cursing to show themselves as able for the position they are in. Anyway as adult fiction it's an acceptable use of language. Plus the author writes these intelligent, advanced children so that you don't always remember they are in fact children. It also adds to the horror that they are tools in the war.

Paula wrote: "I cursed more in Cub Scouts than the kids in this book. I think the author does a good job of portraying the group of children playing adults by being tough & cursing to show themselves as able for..."

I agree. It also particularly emphasizes the horror of the life of a street child in "Ender's Shadow". I didn't feel like the swearing was excessive and unnecessary: rather, it helped to create the characters, who are kind of vulgar.

yeah you could be right...

I'm with the majority. Card has a good feel to language, and curse words (profanity) were used with purpose. They helped create the atmosphere and the characters. One of the main elements of the battle school framework (and, in this book, the streets Bean grew up on) is that these kids were so brilliant that they were truly miniature adults, with a rich psychology, social network, and political/philosophical ideas. I would think it weird if they DIDN'T use curse words, because kids use curse words all the time.

I disagree, I think the swearing is lame and distracting. Are we saying this is a fictional story he's trying to make "real" through the use of swearing? Lame. Other means can be used to do that. And OSC's books not being for children? Come on... who didn't start reading these books when they were in Jr. High... Card, and no one else for that matter, can't escape their influence on others in their writing or how they choose to live their lives. It will be read by children, and everyone will be influenced to a greater or lesser extent by what they read, children or not. And it will have been his choice how they were influenced because he wrote the words on the page.

I believe that it's fine. Do you know how offten I cuss without even realizing it? Scott's book is more realistic with the cussing, and it took me a few times to even realize that it was cussing. They have a different vocabulary, and I think that it's fine. If he tried to make this book for children, then maybe I would have a different opinion, but I read it in High School, and I think by then everyone has their own opinions about cussing from so many other influences that it doesn't matter so much.

There's cussing in the Ender series? I never noticed, which is an indication of how irrelevant it is.

I think the language is believable and was not distracting. Have you heard kids when they think that adults cannot hear them. they are put in this situation with truely little adult supervision and infleunce. The adults involved wanted the aggression not subservience so they would not be likely to discourage the use of bad language.

I didn't even notice an excessive use of cussing for this situation unlike in Maze Runner, which was a good book, The contrived use of bad language and slang was distracting and annoying and took away from the story for me.

Jeremy wrote: "I disagree, I think the swearing is lame and distracting. Are we saying this is a fictional story he's trying to make "real" through the use of swearing? Lame. Other means can be used to do that...."

Card wrote it believing the audience to be adults, he is not under obligation to change the book just because children end up reading it. Just like an author of erotica is under obligation to remove sexual content because some people under 18 read it. If you don't want YOUR children to read it, then it is your place as a parent to prevent it: not the author's. Especially considering much of his other work in the series is so much denser, I have rarely seen a child read any.

Further, I do think that dialogue is an important way to describe the fictional universe, and profanity did help paint that picture (whether you like the picture or not). We're talking about a point in time where children are carefully looked at, not as unknowing children, but as having a kind of intelligence and potential that adults do not have. We're talking about a tiny fraction of the most intelligent, aggressive, and often pride-driven children (primarily male) made to live together with minimal face-to-face adult interaction. By six years old they are learning advanced topics and put into a hierarchy, and their self-imposed social structure requires verbal and physical power plays.

If you don't like the language, then don't read it.

Sarah wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "I disagree, I think the swearing is lame and distracting. Are we saying this is a fictional story he's trying to make "real" through the use of swearing? Lame. Other means can be u..."
I believe your point is these aims can't be met with out swearing, and my point is I believe they can.

No, my point is he shouldn't feel the NEED to write without profanity. Profanity is a valid part of language, and I don't see a reason that authors shouldn't use it. If that means that some people aren't going to read it or like it, that is a choice the author has. He may be able to, but unless he wanted to avoid profanity to begin with, then I see absolutely no reason to expect that of him or any other author. The profanity serves a purpose, the purpose the author gave it, and I don't care if it COULD be done without profanity without loosing any meaning or effect...this is the book Card wrote.

Sarah wrote: "No, my point is he shouldn't feel the NEED to write without profanity. Profanity is a valid part of language, and I don't see a reason that authors shouldn't use it. If that means that some people..."

I respectfully disagree. I believe he should feel the need to write with out profanity if possible, as it is a negative *influence* on it's readers young and old, and as we should all be careful with our words and actions because of it's influence on others. What we read *influences* our thoughts, what we think influences our actions, what we act out and do influences our habits, and our habits determine our character. Individuals who foster good character make for a better society.

Jeremy wrote: "...What we read *influences* our thoughts, what we think influences our actions, what we act out and do influences our habits, and our habits determine our character. Individuals who foster good character make for a better society."



Character isn't a habit, it's choosing to do what's right when faced with a decision where one of the choices is wrong. Or as someone said, it's doing what's right even when nobody is looking.

Character isn't necessarily demonstrated by hiding from "bad" things like profanity, it's demonstrated by choosing to do what's right despite things that try to influence us to do otherwise.

I think profanity in books is a valid world building technique. Is it necessary? No. But I don't think that really matters.

As long as we're on the topic of how habits relate to character :)

"Thoughts lead on to purposes; purposes go forth in action; actions form habits; habits decide character; and character fixes our destiny." Tryon Edwards


"We are what we think; as we desire so do we become! By our thoughts, desires, and habits, we either ascend to the full divine dignity of our nature, or we descend to suffer and learn."
J. Todd Ferrier

"Habits change into character."
Publius Ovidius Naso Ovid

Thoughts lead to acts, acts lead to habits, habits lead to character--and our character will determine our eternal destiny.

(President Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 275)

Jeremy, I believe the mistake you're making is that you are assuming that profanity is a negative influence. Just because OSC may use a larger vocabulary than some people are used to doesn't mean that it's "bad".

I, too, don't think of profanity as "bad". I'm a teacher, and I don't use profanity with my four year olds, but I don't think I'm a bad person with poor character because I curse at home with my husband. Profanity is a part of language that, socially, most people agree is not always appropriate...just like wearing only underwear is not always appropriate or passing gas is not always appropriate.

It comes down to personal choice: if you think profanity is bad for your character/soul/eternal life then don't read it. If you want to prevent your children from reading profanity, then ok. However, it's not your place to dictate how I speak, write, or read.

1. Words themselves are neither bad nor good. The question is how they are used, in what context. Take the F word--it is not bad in and of itself (for proof of this, simply use it in front of someone who doesn't know English. Explain that the definition is "to have sex." I doubt they will be offended.) It's only bad if we use it to hurt other people (again, for proof of this, use the F-word at someone who doesn't speak English, but make sure your tone of voice is very angry/nasty. Hell, if your tone of voice is angry enough, you could have the crap beat out of you for calling a non-english-speaker a "Cookie.")

2. Any author worth reading has a duty to be realistic. To write his characters as if they were real. A lot of real people (who happen to be decent human beings) curse. If you only want to read books about characters who never swear, fine. Be my guest. In my opinion, any writer who consciously shapes the actions/words of his characters to cater to his own sensibilities rather than searching as hard as he can for those (sometimes hard-to-swallow) truths about the humans beings he's writing about isn't worth reading. (one such truth is that people are flawed, and that sometimes they do bad things, which leads into my third point.)

3. Even when swear words are used in a bad way, to hurt other people, this is again, perfectly valid in the context of fiction. Depicting a scene is not the same thing as endorsing a scene. All characters, if written honestly, will have flaws, will say things they shouldn't have, do things they shouldn't have. Cursing is a part of that. Saying "Characters shouldn't curse because it's bad" is akin to saying "Characters shouldn't ever do anything wrong, because doing wrong is bad."

4. In order to oppose evil, we must first acknowledge it's existence. And we must also make the distinction between harmless behavior (swearing that is not intended to hurt anyone) and truly malevolent behavior (swearing that is intended to hurt.) Censoring ourselves (aka pretending something doesn't exist) is the opposite of opposing evil. If anything, censorship is cowardly.

I've read the book three times and I don't even remember the swearing. It just wasn't significant.

Well, I don't know. He has faster than light communications and telepathic bugs. Could just as well have soldiers who don't curse. (Not that I mind cursing, I'm just objecting to the bizarre idea that "author has responsibilities").

It's his world. If he wants the kids to curse, let them curse. They're kids, and kids curse like sailors when adults aren't around. Anyone saying otherwise is either lying, or had a real shitty childhood.

I'm not trying to "dictate" how people should write, or what people should read. Nor am I attempting to judge one person to be of a good character and another bad. All I'm stating is that it is my opinion that bad language, offensive language, profanity, or vulgar language, is exactly what their adjectives and synonyms describe them to be (bad, offensive, and vulgar.) These are not good things, and in my opinion they are of a negative influence, and not a positive influence. I claim no authority to judge anyone's character but my own, but I do hope to exclaim that I for one do not approve of it's use. If you disagree with me, that's ok, but I feel I have every right to share my opinion that I think it's wrong, just as I feel you have every right to disagree and share you're opinion that it is right. :-)

Am I totally alone in this? Does no one else agree with me and this statement:

Although I completely respect every authors freedom to write how and what they would, I personally feel swearing is bad and offensive, and I would prefer it if authors would choose not to use it.

Jeremy wrote: "Although I completely respect every authors freedom to write how and what they would, I personally feel swearing is bad and offensive, and I would prefer it if authors would choose not to use it. "

I agree with the "I would prefer it if authors would choose not to use it" part, and I personally try not to swear, with varying degrees of success, especially while driving. But, overall it is irrelevant to me. I don't find it particularly offensive unless it's directed at someone to be hurtful. I ignore it, forget it, and move on.

Jeremy wrote: "Am I totally alone in this? Does no one else agree with me and this statement:

Although I completely respect every authors freedom to write how and what they would, I personally feel swearing is ..."

You're not completely alone, I'm sure that there are some people that agree with you. I personally feel that swearing isn't bad, it's just language. Also if I had my way it would be against the law to be offended by anything.

Again, just because someone uses a larger vocabulary than you might, doesn't mean that they are immoral, or bad.

With all due respect, Jeremy, I don't think that anyone is questioning your right to have such an opinion.

I do see a need for cursing at times. It develops characters. Real people (in general) do not speak with an unflinching regard for proper language. Emotions, education, upbringing, cultural and societal moors, circumstances, along with many other influences that I am probably forgetting, all play a factor in how a person's communication skills develop.

A character forced to live on the streets is not going to have the same concern for courtesy as one brought up in an upper-class society. The development of that character might require the use of a few (if not alot) of cursing to establish their type of personality.

Also, one must consider what exactly is or isn't offensive. For instance, terms such as "God-damned", "Goddammit", or "Jesus H Christ", might be offsenive to most people in America, because of their obvious religiously blasphemous elements, yet most people in America would not bat an eye when using "Holy Cow", without giving any regard to the Hindhu religion to whom the cow is sacred.

And finally, one could compare the use of cursing in literature to the use of nudity in th visual arts. I think one would be hard pressed to find anyone that would consider Michaelangelo's masterpiece in the Sistine Chapel vulgar, but at one time it was deemed vulgar by people of a certain era.

Like trends in art, trends in literature are fluid and everchanging. Which is why many of us reading some the classics nowadays wouldn't even know that some of the phrases we take for granted today, were called curse words yesterday.

Thank you for the respect. :-) I don't think it's quite so complicated or ambiguous as that, though. :-) I think an author uses cursing in order to demonstrate an offensive character and the author knows very well (or should if he's a good author) how his language affects it's readers (or at least the target audience). Now, I don't disagree with people having an opinion on what gives offense and what doesn't, but one thing I DO disagree with is the point that many are trying to bring up in this thread, that swearing MUST be used in order for a character to be REAL. We may have to agree to disagree on this point. I know many REAL people who don't swear. And I've read many an evil and offensive character that didn't either. It can be done, and in my opinion I wish it were done more often than not. :-)

Now I'm curious. I know most if not all of you disagree, (and that's ok. :-) but are there any who agree with me and this statement?

That it isn't necessary for authors to write out swear words in the text in order to create a REAL character (regardless of the characters cultural background)?