Bitterblue discussion

While I was reading this book, I loved the relationship between Bitterblue and Giddon. He seemed to have grown up a lot more in this book than when we first met him in Graceling. And the way the two of them clicked together just seemed so sweet and believable to me. I don't think I'm really saying what I really thought about them well, but what I'm really trying to say is that I loved the two of them together. I liked Bitterblue with Saf, but I love her with Giddon.

What do you guys think?

I love Bitterblue with Giddon too! There is obviously some chemistry between them and they fit so well together. I liked Saf, kind of, but I didn't think their relationship would last, or if it did it wouldn't be good for Bitterblue. He was a good emotional step for Bitterblue, kind of like Archer and Fire, that helped her open up to emotional connections of that kind. I really hope there is another book so we can see the relationship between Bitterblue and Giddon grow.

This is exactly how I felt! Bitterblue and Giddon were so good for each other. Where the relationship with Saf was built of attraction and adreneline and volatile emotions, the relationship with Giddon was based on respect and taking care of one another. I love that Bitterblue doesn't lie to Giddon. I love how much they want to protect one another. He is a rock for her in a way that Saf never was and never really intended to be.

It's like Bitterblue says when watching Po and Katsa fight and cry and argue and make-up, that's not the kind of relationship she wants. That's what being with Saf would have been. With Giddon it would have been very different.

I really thought the book was heading towards a Bitterblue/Giddon ending but then nothing came of it. That was my only real disappointment with the book, actually.

i love the relationship there with Giddon, but i don't think that i agree with the thought that the BB/Saf relationship would be like Po and Katsa. i think that since BB's personality isn't nearly as volatile as Katsa's and that's what makes for the love hate thing all the time. BB is more even tempered and she's really looking for the loving type relationshp that she missed from her mom and dad.

this is why we need a follow up book - KRISTIN CASHORE ARE YOU LISTENING? there are so many unresolved things and so many relationships that we can build off that we'll talk on and on about that you will hopefully find it in yourself to write about

I don't think Bitterblue is like Katsa and I never said she was. I do, however, think that Saf is. Bitterblue even makes the comparison herself, if I recall correctly. Saf loves to fight. With anyone. With Bitterblue, with his friends, with strangers. That's a very clear and present part of his personality. In my experience, if you're in a relationship with someone like that, you are going to fight with them. A lot. Even if you don't want to. Trust me, I've been there.

I like Saf, but he's a brat. And I think that that is just one of the reasons that a longterm relationship between him and Bitterblue would be untenable. He was important to her development and I don't wish him gone from the novel or anything, but I stand by my statement that an extended relationship with him would be too volatile for Bitterblue's liking.

I totally agree Rebecca!

I agree. I was kind of glad that saf left and how they both agreed to leave as friends. And yeah I thought they would end up together. Hmm maybe they will in the future. He's what she needs and vice versa. He would make an excellent king in my opinion.

To really choose how I feel about this question I have to mentally plunk my butt in my reading chair with the imaginary 4th book in my hands. Also there are two dimensions. To use a tired big-bang-theoryism we'll call is Schroedinger's Love Triangle.

When I read my imaginary 4th book and Giddon turns up at the castle with a new wife I feel very sad, disappointed, and I heave a huge sigh.

When I read my imaginary 4th book and Saf turns up at the castle with a new wife I feel furious, betrayed, hurt and raw.

I like the choice of Giddon for Bitterblue's potential mate and I agree with everyone about their chemistry and how good he is for her but I think the only way I can accept not-saf is if saf dies. Unless he goes way out of character and becomes horrible or something.

I think, though, that is because my motivation is very rarely what is good for me.

But I imagine a situation where Giddon and Bitterblue are already engaged and Saf turns up again after a good 5 years or so, very different.

I can see this working because really one of the key differences between Saf and Giddon is their maturity. (cliché though that may be)

Thank goodness, I thought I was the only one who had this strange liking for Giddon and Bitterblue to have a relationship together.

I think what I liked most about Giddon's character in this book is the tenderness he seemed to have acquired over the years. It was such a wonderful quality to show Bitterblue and she returned it. Each and every moment they had together could certainly have grown into something more. So whenever their moments ended, I was left with wanting something more.

I was hoping for an epilogue of some sort to just show him coming back to her, then end it there. :) Other snippets I would have enjoyed are his conversations with Saf in the bridge tower room, 'cause he'd have to be blind not know Bitterblue and Saf obviously had a deeper relationship. ;)

I was rooting for Bitterblue and Giddon, I felt they had more chemistry than Saf and BB. I think I liked Giddon more than I would have because of how much I didn't like Saf..he was so childish, petty and mean..I hated that BB kept begging for his forgiveness and he kept treating her like dirt..I also couldn't get on board with Saf being bisexual - I kept imagining all his ex boyfriends.. I actually thought that he showed Po more love/care and affection than he did BB. If I hadn't already read Graceling and enjoyed Kats/Po relationship..I would have actaully like Po and Saf to end up together.
I expected Giddon and BB to end up together..I thought they'd be an epilogue..If there's no 4th book we'll never know who BB ended up with..It's frustrataing especially when the author said somewhere on her website that she doesn't like to fill in the blanks in her books because that's up to the individual reader..if it's somethhing as big as who BB ends up with then I believe it's upto the author to give her readers closure.

Add me to the list. I really thought that Bitterblue would end up with Giddon. I never liked Saf. In the beginning, he seemed like a jerk from their first meeting. I also didn't think Bitterblue would want to be with a graceling for some reason. Saf was never really nice to Bitterblue, even before he found out who she was.

I liked Giddon a lot better in this book than in Graceling. He seemed more mature and more responsible. And I loved the way Bitterblue and Giddon comforted each other during their various crisis. I really hope there is another book, even if they are in the background, with Giddon and Bitterblue together.

Ferdy wrote: "I was rooting for Bitterblue and Giddon, I felt they had more chemistry than Saf and BB. I think I liked Giddon more than I would have because of how much I didn't like Saf..he was so childish, pet..."

Wait, where does it say Saf is bisexual? Sorry I just think you may have misconstrued something there!

Katherine wrote: "Ferdy wrote: "I was rooting for Bitterblue and Giddon, I felt they had more chemistry than Saf and BB. I think I liked Giddon more than I would have because of how much I didn't like Saf..he was so..."


It doesn't outright say he's bisexual but it's more than strongly implied..I'm pretty much 100% certain that he's bisexual..There's also number of reviews on Goodreads and Amazon where the reviewer's mentioned that Saf's bisexual. Here's the passage that more or less confirms (to me, anyway) his sexuality (it's at 44% in the kindle book):

'Hello' said a man Bitterblue had never seen before, pale-haired and mean-looking and clearly not sober. He shoved his finger in Saf's face. "I don't think you understand the nature of this holiday, Sapphire."

"I don't think you understand the nature of our relationship, Ander," Saf said with sudden ferocity, then smashed his fist into the other man's face so fast that Bitterblue was left gasping.
An instant later, people had grabbed on to both of them and pulled them apart, pulled them away, taken them out of the room, and Bitterblue stood there, dazed and bereft.
"Lucky," said a voice. Teddy was holding his hand out to her from the cot, like a rope to pull her to shore. Going to him numbly, Bitterblue took his hand and sat.
After a moment of trying to figure it out on her own, she said, "What just happened?"
"Oh, Sparks," said Teddy, patting her hand. "Welcome to Sapphire's world."
"No, seriously, Teddy," she said. "Please don't talk in riddles. What just happened? Was that one of the bullies who like to beat him up?"
"No," said Teddy, shaking his head ponderously. "That was a different kind of bully. Saf keeps a vast range of bullies on hand at all times. That one seemed to be of the jealous variety."
"Jealous? Of me?" "Well, you're the one who was kissing him in rather a non-holiday manner, weren't you?"
"But, is that man his—"
"No," Teddy repeated. "Not now. Unfortunately, Ander is a psychopath. Saf has the most bizarre taste, Sparks, present company excluded, of course, and I really cannot warn you strongly enough against getting involved, but what good will it do?" Teddy flapped his free hand in a gesture of despair, sloshing his drink. "It's clear you're already involved. I'll talk to him. He likes you. Maybe I can get through to him about you."
"Who else is there?" she heard herself ask. Teddy shook his head unhappily. "No one," he said. "But he's not good for you, Sparks, do you understand that? He's not going to marry you."

Ferdy I never noticed that in that scene! Thank you for pointing it out. I guess it never connected in my head because Saf got so angry so fast that it seemed entirely territorial. Whoever Ander had really been jealous of I can't imagine Saf's furious reaction being anything but territorial.

Picture the same scene for yourself, you're kissing someone of a party and someone else approaches. You immediately punch this person. If they're just your ex why would you punch them? Seems to be adding injury to insult in that case.

Unless of course they HAD been together and now Ander is jealous, violent and despicable and Saf knew that he was there to make trouble.

Still if that's the clearest passage of the book I'm not surprised a lot of people missed it.

Now that I'm reading that scene apart from the whole book and studying it more closely, it does seem to say that, you're right. The punching thing does seem odd, but I guess it's just one of those subtle things (I feel like Kristin Cashore is a master of "subtle") that people can interpret how they will. Thank you for making me more aware!

I was a bit confused when I first read it because I thought no way is Saf bisexual..and I kept thinking is that really what K.Cashore is implying?? I thought I'd misinterpreted and had to read that passage a dozen times to make sure I'd not read things incorrectly.. When I saw reviews and discussions that mentioned Saf's sexuality there was no doubt in my mind at all that he was bi.
I was actually disappointed when I realised that Saf was bi..after that all I kept thinking about was his ex boyfriends and the last thing I want to think about when reading about the hero and heroine is the heroes ex boyfriends.

Haha I know what you mean. Yeah I really wouldn't have thought... But then, the thing that disappointed me with Saf was that he wasn't even that main of a character... I understand that these are fantasy books and romance is just one aspect, but compared to Graceling and Fire, it was an almost random sort of non-event. He and Bitterblue barely knew each other...

And since I'm on the topic - I think it's purposefully left open that Bitterblue and Giddon could become something someday. But the same goes for Bitterblue and Saf, as it says Saf will come back. But maybe they will just be excellent life long friends. I think it's important for friendship to be able to happen without romance. But all the small hints were indeed there- Her going on about loving the sound of his voice, nearly crying when he left, etc.

I like that Bitterblue didn't end up with anyone, she is WAY too busy with things that are much more important, she doesn't have time to really find a mate and she's got plenty of time to do that later. Fire and Katniss were busy and on adventures too but they weren't trying to pull a 35 year old dagger out of a kingdom's back. Forget how much Bitterblue herself had to come to terms with and grow through.


While I don't find the passage ENTIRELY convincing, the more I think about it the more I think based on Saf's character that it makes perfect sense that he's bi. It suits him. He reminds me a lot of Mercutio and as Shakespeare said of that cahracter in Romeo and Juliet, Mercutio would take over the entire story with his volatile nature and so Saf couldn't have been such a big player, he'd have taken over completely.

Saf has deffo been the worst love interest in the series..for most of the book I felt he was just holding a grudge and he acted childish and petty. I didn't feel that he loved her or even cared about her..just that he was mildly attracted to her. With Po and Brigan, I didn't doubt their feelings for Kata and Fire. I'm glad Bitterblue and Saf didn't end up together.. thet hardly had any chemistry or friendship..I would have liked an epilogue to get more closure on what happens in BB's life..if there's no 4th book I'll always be left wondering.
I thought BB and Giddon had a lot of feelings for each other, the way they reacted to each other was very telling.. I think they would be a more suitable couple..their friends, they have chemistry, they care and trust each other, they've known each other for years and Giddon knows what it's like to be part of the royal scene since he was a lord..If there's a 4th book I really hope their together..and Saf is just friends with BB.

While Cashore has officially said she doesn't know if she'll write more I have seen her make comments about how she plans to include different races and work harder on what limitations Po should have between his blindness and his grace.

She was more musing but she's obviously got it in her mind, she's not decided she's completely done in any case.

I'm excited to reread Bitterblue knowing how these relationships turn out so I can pick out more little clues here and there about what might come up in subsequent novels. This one, of all of them, felt the most unfinished.

Ferdy wrote: "Katherine wrote: "Ferdy wrote: "I was rooting for Bitterblue and Giddon, I felt they had more chemistry than Saf and BB. I think I liked Giddon more than I would have because of how much I didn't l..."

I think a lot of people might have missed the "But, is that man his—" line and the "Saf has the most bizarre taste" lines. I can see how it would be easy to do (as I myself did..) Although, I think if Saf is bi as this passage indicates, then that is an awful lot of gay people in one book. I've noticed newer books trying to include more gay characters (which is fine, i'm not a hater) but I think there is a point where it becomes a little disproportionate.

Jessica wrote: "Ferdy wrote: "Katherine wrote: "Ferdy wrote: "I was rooting for Bitterblue and Giddon, I felt they had more chemistry than Saf and BB. I think I liked Giddon more than I would have because of how m..."

Yea, I thought the writing was quite weak there..I kind of felt that Cashore was deliberately being vague
so it wouldn't 'alienate' some readers. I would have prefered if she'd been clearer and actually given us some background/history into Saf's past love life, that way I could maybe understand what was so special about Saf and BB's relationship.. I don't even get why either was attracted to the other.
I'm not impressed with how she leaves important things open to so many different interpretations..after investing time and money I think the least we're owed is definite answers and closure..not some vague response that readers can interpret things how ever they want.

Jessica wrote: "Ferdy wrote: "Katherine wrote: "Ferdy wrote: "I was rooting for Bitterblue and Giddon, I felt they had more chemistry than Saf and BB. I think I liked Giddon more than I would have because of how m..."

I don't think it's disproportionate, (I do see where you're coming from though). I think there are more gay people in the world than anyone realizes. It's just unusual to find more than one, or one couple, in a single book. Which I'm glad is changing.

And lets not forget that while most things seem to be a reflection of our world this is techincally a world she invented. She can subvert any rules or norms she wants.

Samantha wrote: "And lets not forget that while most things seem to be a reflection of our world this is techincally a world she invented. She can subvert any rules or norms she wants."

Exactly. And I think that the intention with Saf was that he just be a pretty mysterious character who we never get to know too well. There are suggestions here and hints there but he's not meant to be clear cut or obvious in any way.

Samantha wrote: "And lets not forget that while most things seem to be a reflection of our world this is techincally a world she invented. She can subvert any rules or norms she wants."

I'm just saying, the world she choses to create is pretty liberal (not that I am a republican or anything). This is just another example I've seen lately of newer books trying to be more progressive. It seems forced and it shouldn't have to be.

Jessica wrote: "I'm just saying, the world she choses to create is pretty liberal (not that I am a republican or anything). This is just another example I've seen lately of newer books trying to be more progressive. It seems forced and it shouldn't have to be."


I do get what you're saying about the forced thing, I've felt that in other books. But I think this is just about individual feeling/interpretation, because it didn't really feel that way to me. It wasn't necessarily the *most* natural in the world, because I *did* feel a twinge at some point as if she felt like she had to incorporate a lesbian relationship as well as one with gay guys, and I've read books where it flows a little smoother. But all in all I don't think she was really trying to do anything but write true to the story. I blame it on the fact that we're just not used to multiple gay relationships.

Oh, and to everyone on this discussion... Sorry for steering the whole thing off track. Do resume about Giddon and Bitterblue :)

Katherine wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I'm just saying, the world she choses to create is pretty liberal (not that I am a republican or anything). This is just another example I've seen lately of newer books trying to be..."

Yes I think if I could put my finger on a mistake she's made with it is having it be both ubiquitous but still with a sense of tabboo. This might my own projection here but it seems that when people find out about these gay relationships they still react similarly to how we react in this world, either accepting and liberal (with the acceptance there is always a sense that it is because someone is liberal-minded, not that it's simply a commonplace thing) or not accepting and closed minded.

I think if the homosexual relationships were meant to be more common and universally accepted in this world then everyone should know about the ones that are and it should be no different than knowing ANYONE is dating. Obviously all the characters WE know personally are okay with it but seems like it's BECAUSE they're accepting, not being in this world it is accepted.

Our first experience with homoesexuality in these books is Raffin and Bann who are secretive because of Raffin's father. This reflects our world pretty closely which got us all started in the mindset that it's a very similar setting. But now as she brings in more and more (particularly having a reveal of 3 in a single book - more than any other relationships that are discussion) it feels like a drastic change which gives it the forced feeling.

If she'd introduced it all as being not-a-big-deal from the start this book wouldn't have stood out as much I suppose.

Jessica I totally know what you mean, I wasn't disagreeing with you by any stretch. In fact I wrote a really long post about this in another topic. http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

And yes, back to the discussion lol.

Samantha wrote: "Katherine wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I'm just saying, the world she choses to create is pretty liberal (not that I am a republican or anything). This is just another example I've seen lately of newer ..."

The only one who isn't understanding that I can think of from the books is Raffin's father, the king of the Middluns. But that is never clarified that he's not accepting of homosexual relationships or that Raffin has the duty of producing an heir. I can't remember any other character expressing disapproval.

Linda wrote: "Samantha wrote: "Katherine wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I'm just saying, the world she choses to create is pretty liberal (not that I am a republican or anything). This is just another example I've seen..."

I don't think she gives the opportunity for other characters to show their approval or disapproval of the concept. Most of the characters she focuses on are main characters from other books and we already know they are accepting. Plus since she is so vague about the status of those in gay relationships, they don't really have any input as to how they are treated either.

Furthermore, I do get the sense that she is modeling her world after ours (as Samantha indicates) but she seems to be tweaking the aspects of what she wishes was different.

I want Bitterblue to be with Saf, but Giddon is definitely a close second! I really enjoyed reading when ever they were together, and how they always told each other the truth, but for now sticking with Saf.

I first thought I would warm up to Saf and that BB was going to be with him in the end. But then the book went on and I didn't really like him very much (though he could be funny/snarky at times). I was kind of glad when he left though, and BB is now free to go after Giddon. Was anyone else surprised at how much Giddon matured from Graceling to Bitterblue?

About the adding gay characters thing : I kind of agree with what some people are saying. I liked that we finally got a concrete answer for Raffin and Bann, but I felt she did go out of her way to add a lot of them in the last book. In the first book, the only gay couple (of the main/secondary cast) are Raffin/Bann and they're very subtle. In Bitterblue, we get confirmation of Raffin/Bann, Skye, Tilda/Bren, and Saf as bisexual too. This wouldn't be a surprising if KC had started out the books in that way, but it's a noticeable change in Bitterblue.

I loved Giddon! I thought he'd be a great match for Bitterblue; but I also had a part that wanted Bitterblue and Saf be together! Saf could be careless, stubborn, and funny; which made me really kind of like him. I always liked Giddon from the 1st book and on. I feel so bad that he always seems to be like second hand. He wanted Katsa but that obviously didn't happen and then he seemed to have that real soft spot for Bitterblue, but got pushed off because of Saf. I mean give the poor Lord a break! He's been through so many rough situations! Give him someone happily! I liked both the boys and liked them both with Bitterblue.
I wish there was another book! I want MORE Katsa, Fire, and Bitterblue! Give me more!! I WANT MORE of EVERYONE!

I was thinking the same. They are just so sweet together. Since Saf was leaving for Dale, I kind of imagine that she will end up with Giddon.