Literary Exploration discussion

What do you feel the pros and cons, as well as the differences between Hard-Boiled and Noir?

Quite honestly, I came into this thread because I am completely unfamiliar with what the genre of "Hard-Boiled" is and am only vaguely familiar with the concept of the Noir genre. I was hoping to see some definitions and examples!

I hope this thread gains speed at some point, I am certainly curious.

From what I can find noir is a subset of hard boiled.

"Hardboiled (or hard-boiled) fiction is a literary style, most commonly associated with crime fiction (especially detective stories), and distinguished by the unsentimental portrayal of violence and sometimes sex. The style was pioneered by Carroll John Daly in the mid-1920s, popularized by Dashiell Hammett over the course of the decade, and refined by Raymond Chandler beginning in the late 1930s."

And for noir
"In this sub-genre, the protagonist is usually not a detective, but instead either a victim, a suspect, or a perpetrator. He is someone tied directly to the crime, not an outsider called to solve or fix the situation. Other common characteristics ... are the emphasis on sexual relationships and the use of sex to advance the plot and the self-destructive qualities of the lead characters. This type of fiction also has the lean, direct writing style and the gritty realism commonly associated with hardboiled fiction"

So the difference is the point of view and the main character.

Kim, thanks for the information. I seem to always just lump noir into one collective group, so this makes it a little clearer.

It's difficult to decide between the two. I guess I'm more into the Chandler/ Hammett style, which would be hardboiled. I guess there are pros and cons with both styles.

I am reading a book now, Berlin Noir (3 Bernie Gunther stories) and it sounds more like the hardboiled type. He is a detective and there is a horrible rape scene. The whole episode is creepy because there is no emotion. I thought it was because a man wrote the scene but based on your description that is expected. Thanks for the information!

Like everyone else already said, thanks for posting some clear definitions of these two topics for us! I don't generally read either one, but the Noir sub-genre seems the most interesting to me. Well, minus the "sex to advance the plot" tidbit. Call me an old prude but I don't like to read a lot of sex in my books. Haha.

Kim wrote: "From what I can find noir is a subset of hard boiled.

"Hardboiled (or hard-boiled) fiction is a literary style, most commonly associated with crime fiction (especially detective stories), and dist..."

This is a good description. I enjoy reading classic crime/mystery/hard-boiled/noir/detective fiction. But I agree that they aren't interchangeable and each has specific attributes.

I have attempted to strart a discussion about classic noir fiction that can be found here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

It begins with:

"I've looked around various groups and found them to be very broad and often mixed others or various crime/mystery/detective/hardboiled/noir novels and authors without a clear cut distinction. I would like to propose a category limited to noir style crime fiction. I will use the Wikipedia description of noir fiction to show the specific boundaries I would like to confine the novels, stories and authors to."