The Sword and Laser discussion

Ok, so it's official, I have yet to go back to finish the poets tale and I can't bring myself to finish Hyperion...

Just could not find it interesting at all! Would have rather been spending my time working on another book other than this one... And to have to continue on to fall of Hyperion when I can't even move forward with the first book just does not appeal to me...

Here's to a better book for June...

Anyone else on the same treeship?

Not here... I'm not very far in but so far it's fascinating. I've never read anything quite like it before.

I finished reading it using speed reading which I seldom do to fiction but I would have saved time just lemming it. I've no interest in reading another Simmons book - ever.

I hope for some real scifi in June.

Anne wrote: "I hope for some real scifi in June."

You may be disappointed. There are 3 Fantasy books up for the vote.
http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/65593

July is the next Laser book (or should be)

I lemmed it. Again it just couldn't hold my interest. Halfway through the second story and I still didn't care about any of the characters, certainly not enough to pick the book up again once I'd put it down.

Just glad I didn't buy the two-pack with the sequel!

Tassie Dave wrote: "Anne wrote: "I hope for some real scifi in June."

You may be disappointed. There are 3 Fantasy books up for the vote.
http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/65593

July is the next Laser book (or shou..."

Tigana sounds like a Hyperion rewrite. I'll sit the next dance out. Where are the cookies and punch bowl?

I'm still in the Poet's tale, but more due to being busy than actually having to give up on the book. The story is pretty captivating - not unputdownable, but I am definitely enjoying it.

I nearly did. The Poet's Tale is the hardest part to get through, I think (as I've said elsewhere, if I hadn't been driving in heavy weather at the time I would have stopped it and not listened to the whole thing!) - you may find the following two tales better. Can't guarantee you'll like the ending, though.

Darren wrote: "I'm not sure if I even lemmed it.....I read one page of Hyperion. One epage. That was at least a week ago."

I wouldn't classify that as lemming a book. I sample a lot of books that I don't read.

Lemming a book implies that you have invested time and effort (and I would add money) but you are not enjoying it and decided it isn't worth finishing.

BTW, Simmons considers scifi an idiot's term and readers of it to be child-like. He is part of the crowd that likes a big generic classification called speculative fiction. And, from the writers' and marketing viewpoints, a larger category has advantages. But it really doesn't help the reader who likes scifi or other sub-genres of speculative fiction and would rather not have to wade through large lists with dubious reviews.

Despite the fact he hates the term scifi I notice his books like Hyperion still carry the term on the cover.

I'd imagine that having Sci-fi plastered on his books would be down to the publisher though, as they have to market it and associate it to ther genre fiction in some way

I may not be able to see the poll to vote on next months book because I am on the iPad app, but I'd like to have some say in the next book as I do want to continue to be a part of this group... Just could not get through this one...

I also stopped during the poets tale. I found the world completely uninteresting

When I read Hyperion, the thing I found most fascinating about it I now discovered was ripped off of Canterbury Tales, a book I have not read. Now that I know, I changed my rating and don't think I'll be reading book 3 and 4.

Having read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, I wouldn't say that Simmons ripped them off, per se, but simply used the concept of a frame story to provide more background to the characters, hyperion, and the story that, by all accounts will really take off in Fall of Hyperion.

Chaucer's book is again about a set of pilgrims, this time on their way to Canterbury, who decide to tell tales to pass the time. However, each tale (and there are 25 in total) was used to poke fun at English society at the time he wrote, which was the 14th century. They also often carry a parable within them and are written in old English verse.

Yeah, I'm Lemming this book as well. It's too bad since it's the first book I've ever read along with other people on the internet...

Lemmed, I just couldn't get into it. I actually feel pretty guilty, it's a well written book, it just couldn't hold my interest.
Also, I had the audiobook and the man's voice is the most boring and robotic I've come across.

I started listening to the audiobook and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get into it. I was so close to lemming it. Yesterday I decided to try reading it on my kindle and now I can't put it down :) I think all the distractions at work kind of kept me from getting into the audio version.

Joshua wrote: "Lemmed, I just couldn't get into it. I actually feel pretty guilty, it's a well written book, it just couldn't hold my interest.
Also, I had the audiobook and the man's voice is the most boring an..."

Define "well written"????

Lemmed it after after the poets story. It took me days to get through that section alone. I just didn't find myself caring. With a stack of other books to read I'll just wait to see what next month brings.

I thoroughly enjoyed the prologue, but once the frame stories started, I completely lost interest. Never was a big fan of Canterbury Tales, but was hoping a sci-fi spin would pull it off.

Took me three days just to get from the start of the priest's story to Day 1 of the journal. And then I find out that for the story to really wrap up I would have to read the next book; I can't handle the drudgery.

I heard Simmons was a teacher, and I wonder if his primary subject was history because once the frame stories start, it reads like a dull history book. So much potential from the prologue only to have it fall to the wayside.

Anne wrote: "Joshua wrote: "Lemmed, I just couldn't get into it. I actually feel pretty guilty, it's a well written book, it just couldn't hold my interest.
Also, I had the audiobook and the man's voice is the..."

It's a well-concieved and imaginative universe. I liked the idea of a frame story, I've not actually read a book that uses it before, It's pretty highly rated on goodreads. It does feel like it's my fault that I've not integrated myself into Hyperion's world.

I hate lemming books so I try and force myself to read books. I feel guilty for not finishing books for some reason. Especially when I spend $7.99 on the book. I just don't know if I can finish this book. It's just not holding my interest. The stories are kinda interesting but not enough. I also find myself not caring about the characters. Maybe later I can try again.

I too thought of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales from the opening dinner but also many other books that have been ripped from Chaucer. Also, my high school lit teacher had a thing about filler in stories to make word count, Simmons seems to suffer from it. I am audio booking it and the actors do add a lot of interest to even the dry parts but I thought to myself, "if I was reading this and not otherwise busy with my hands, I would put it down". I am not quite ready to lemmed it but Veronica did not like the ending and I have been waiting for some re-deeming value to a disappointing ending, so we will see.

I've been close to Lemming it several times, but I'm 2/3 of the way through it now. I'll finish it, but I'm not sure I care enough to read the next book in the series.

Who knows? The ending may be enticing enough to sucker me in to the next book.

I had a tough time getting into the book and I've considered lemming it a few times. However, like some of you I do have a hard time actually giving up and I try to 'force' myself through it. Right now I've come to a point that I'm starting to get into the story, it's holding my attention and I find it quite interesting. Here's hoping it continues to be that way.

I feel relieved! I thought I was the only jerk to hate this book!

All of you have expressed the exact feelings I had about Hyperion!

I do have one thing to add though about the "forced to read" comments... I agree, but when it comes down to it, reading for fun should not feel like homework... Maybe it's just due to the Canterbury Stigma Hyperion has, but I felt like I was back in HS trying to read a book in time for a test...

I officially joined S&L because of a promise I made myself... I want to read more books... I just need to stay away from works like these...

Hoping June is a better read!

OK, I don't criticize anyone for having different taste than me. I just wanted to note, though, that I love the Poet's tale (and the book as a whole). My love the of series tapers off through the four of them, but I've never regretted reading them all and I've read the first two multiple times.

@Chris, Funny, and that's the one that pushed me to lem the book... "Different Strokes" eh?

Nimrod wrote: "@Chris, Funny, and that's the one that pushed me to lem the book... "Different Strokes" eh?"

Jorge Luis Borges wrote about lemming books, he just didn't call it that. He said something like, "If you start a book and it doesn't speak to you, put it down. It wasn't written for you, but there are plenty of books that are."

I figure there are more books that I would like to read in the world than there is time to read them, so why bother reading the ones I don't want to read? That said, I rarely intentionally lem a book. I'm more likely to just drift away from a book that bores me and never finish rather than say, "Well. That sucks. I'm not reading any more of it."

@Chris, I can understand that, I have many books I started and keep saying I'll go back to, but in this case it's more like your quote, I was trying too hard to enjoy the book, made it hard to do just that...

I'm going to admit my S&L N00bness: Could someone explained 'lemmed' to me...I'm getting a general idea, but a general definition would appeal to my anal-retentive nature. :)

I had to look it up, too. It's in the FAQ. Veronica Belmont didn't want to finish Stanislav Lem's Memoirs Found in a Bathtub(?), so to "Lem" means to put a book aside unfinished.

I haven't lemmed it yet, but there's a good chance that I will

Damn. Surprised by all the lemming. This is definitely one of my favourite sci-fi books ever.

Yeah, I'm surprised too! It was the first sci-fi I've read in a long time and I loved it! But I can see it being too dense for people, it makes you work hard instead of just relax, which not everyone finds fun.

Jules wrote: "Yeah, I'm surprised too! It was the first sci-fi I've read in a long time and I loved it! But I can see it being too dense for people, it makes you work hard instead of just relax, which not everyo..."

Yeah, i was on the fence till i read chapter 4. Great chapter, the rest was too. I think people are having trouble with the poets tale because almost everyone hates the poet.

We could do with a poll - "finished & loved it", "finished but meh", "forced myself to finish it", "lemmed it early", "lemmed it because of the damn poet". :)

Curious on the stats for this one but can't figure out if ordinary users can do polls, just rushing the kids off to school. Someone have a go?

Then I want a 'finished, love it *and* the poet' option as well! :)

Michael wrote: "
Yeah, i was on the fence till i read chapter 4. Great chapter, the rest was too. I think people are having trouble with the poets tale because almost everyone hates the poet."

Yes, Chapter 4 was great and the next tale is turning out to be rather good too. As for the Poet, I don't really hate him. I find him kind of humerous at times, though his outlook on life can be pretty sh*ty.

Jules wrote: "Then I want a 'finished, love it *and* the poet' option as well! :)"

Fair enough :)

Jules wrote: "Then I want a 'finished, love it *and* the poet' option as well! :)"

Ditto :)

Hyperion is not scifi.

How is Hyperion not Sci-fi?

Anne wrote: "Hyperion is not scifi."

It may not be hard sci-fi but it definitely fits the sci-fi genre more than any other genre it shares themes with.

Because Hyperion is all about supernatural beliefs - religions, if I stretch it. It may be that subsequent volumes will remedy that but Hyperion as a standalone is fantasy. Technical fantasy, but fantasy. The difference between fantasy and scifi is the role of the supernatural.

Why does it matter? Is it "just" semantics? Not "just" semantics but Semantics a la Korzyski (Science and Humanity), S. I. Hayakawa (Senator and author of Language in Thought and Action) or from science fiction itself, the null-A novels by Van Vogt or Heinlein and others? Totally fundamental to sci-fi. Not so important to people who prefer fantasy.

An example: One often hears from politicos (except Ron Paul) that people who receive Social Security are receiving benefits they don't deserve because they didn't pay in even a small fraction of the dollars they are receiving. Untrue because the current retirees paid dollars into SS that were pre-inflation dollars. And they [the survivors to 65-not everyone who paid in] are receiving current dollars which are worth roughly a few pennies in pre-inflation money. "Just" semantics is the key that nullifies propaganda. Dollar(1950) is not equal to Dollar(2012)
One might ask who got the value difference. :0

How many people, when they get a "raise", correct the raise for inflation? A lot are satisfied to just "feel good". Did they really get a raise or was their real salary decreased? [Wages have been level or worse for several decades for those who still have a job]. Just a matter of semantics.

The difference between an honest man and a con-man is typically "only" a matter of semantics.

The mytho-poeic approach (like Hyperion) is in stark contrast to scifi. People often prefer one or the other - so truth in labelling is of some importance to the potential reader/customer.

Simmons detests scifi - read his website.

Ah, but sci-fi can be described as imaginary but more or less plausible content such as future settings, futuristic science and technology, space travel, aliens, and paranormal abilities. Though religion could be considered as supernatural, Simmons' discussion of it is more based on the concepts of belief systems that we have today that have persisted into the future, as well as the development of other religious systems - such as the Church of the Shrike and the Templars (if the Templars can truly be associated with a religious order). Their inclusion in the novel is, in my eye, therefore not a focus on the supernatural but part of an overall "rational" description of a possible future. Despite the fact that the novel is not "hard" sci-fi - as it does not postulate accurate science based explainations for the technologies, such as the Hawking Drives etc - I would still consider it science fiction, as opposed to fantasy in the future. In addition, I think that Simmons' writing about such things as cortical implants etc is very interesting given the current research that is being done into cybernetics...

Simmons didn't want it labelled as Sci fi - but then he didn't believe that there should be a scifi genre full stop. According to Tom anyway on the podcast.

Simmons isn't writing even soft sci-fi. He detests scifi! In his own words he detests scifi...something for children and idiots. Scifi can be described as being speculative. But all that is speculative is NOT sci-fi even if it has gadgets.

If a can of peas is desired and the label says peas why should anyone be happy when it turns out on opening to be carrots or beets?

Give me a break - the 6 PILGRIMS with stories resolve their issues by dancing off down the yellow brick road. Hardly a scientific approach to even a speculative world.

Maybe there is some hope for something that can be stretched to science in the Templar but not in this volume. And not likely from Simmons.

LOL. And so the scifi label is judged by books of fantasy that aren't even good fantasy.

I stopped reading scifi for years because books with the label weren't scifi. And then Ted Chiang came along and the genre got interesting again.

Next time I shall be more careful before I leap into a purported "laser" selection.