Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! discussion

What would you say are the key root or source texts for modern Arthurian tales?
We can probably all agree on a few, for instance:
The stuff by Thomas Malory, and The History of the Kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmouth.
But has the work of T.H. White, and his re-interpretation of the older texts, become just as important?
Are older Brit/Norman/Irish texts as valid or influential?
Now I must away, my serf brings mead and roast boar...

If we're looking to key texts we shouldn't forget Chretien de Troyes' works, Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight . And if you look at the "Matter of Britain" article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_o...) there's a whole section with the Medieval sources for Arthur & related tales, as well as a list of the more notable modern authors.

I don't know if T.H. White or Mary Stewart, for example, will become as important as the pre-Modern authors. Time will tell, I suppose, but they'd certainly be (or should be) contenders for the honor.

I'll have to think about my reply for part one of the post .....
but for the modern writers of the legends, I do believe they share the task of the writers who we think of as the early classics. These tales started out as tales told to and belonging to the people (us). The strengths of the legends gave them a staying power and made them part of our culture. So I believe the modern writers who tell the tales with all the different interpretations are important in carrying the legend into the future.

So T.H. White who gave the stories new life in the mid century and Stewart, who obviously has such love and respect for them, really made them accessible for those of us since. The Hollow Hills was my first introduction to ANY Arthurian lit and she gave the story such lifeblood that I haven't stopped reading them since.

I still contend, that to know and understand Arthurian Legends, you have to also understand ancient Roman lore (and to know the Romans, you must first know the Greeks).

The basis for Arthurian Legends was born from: first, the Roman occupation of Britain…and later, Roman abandonment of Britain…leaving Britons vulnerable to Saxon invasion. Without the Roman influence, there would be no need for the Arthurian Legends. For are not all legends born from need?

Also, of course, knowing the Celts is essential to the basis of all things Arthurian. Like the "The Spoils of Annwn” (Preiddeu Annwfn), a Welsh poem taken from the “Book of Taliesin” (Llyfr Taliesin).

Oh, and “The History of the Britons” (Historia Brittonum), the controversial historical accounts (attributed to either Gildas, a 6th century British cleric, or to Nennius, a 9th century monk). As with many ancient historical texts, the authors of the text are steeped in controversy.

As to further connections of Arthurian Legends and Irish folklore and literature, I bow to Barbarossa for those listings.

Back to Arthurian poetry, How about the memorial works of Tennyson, “The Idylls of the King.”

Sorry, I get carried away…See, this is why when I talk of Arthurian Myths, Legends, and historical facts, to my girlfriends, they get glassy-eyed and meekly say, “Go Team Edward.”

{wonders if Barbarossa is going to share his mead with the rest of us? Typing so much makes me thirsty}

Yes, I had forgotten Eschenbach. You would also need an understanding of Germanic, Saxon and Nordic culture, for which the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, The Prose Edda and Beowulf might be useful. Know your enemy, you might say. I agree with Dee that Roman culture and history, particularly reading Tacitus, Agricola, Caesar and Suetonius is important to give added insight into the background of Roman abandonment. Also knowledge of the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Prydein - Tuaatha de Danaan for example, and Brian Boru and the Kings of Tara. Raids from the Irish sea-wolves would have been just as annoying as the gradual arrival of Saxons, Angles and Jutes. There is a definite need to know about Picts and Scotia as well. A knowledge of Celtic mythology and culture - they reckoned calendars by moon and night-time for example - would be a huge advantage, as would a knowledge of agriculture in Celtic times.

Also some of the annals of the early Christian church, since conversion always seems to be one of the key facets of Arthurian legend - the hunt for the Grail and so on. Joseph of Armithea anyone?

When the dew of creation was fresh on the ground ...
And this was the way of it...

Waves Hi to Paul,

When listed in B&W ... it can become a wee bit over-whelming :]

That is why it took me ten-years-plus of research, before I even started to write my novel, and although it is steeped in history, it is still a fantasy.

You are one of the lucky ones Paul, you live in a world immersed in Arthurian history.

Dee Marie

Waves Hi back to Dee,

And the starnge thing is that I was born and spent quite a few years in Tywyn, Merioneth - which is just four miles up the coast from Aberdyfi, where Stephen Lawhead set much of Taliesin and early parts of Merlin. So I DO know the geography of that part of the world really well - including the story that if you spend a night on the summit of Cader Idris, you come down in the morning either mad or a bard. I've spent several nights up there...:-)

<--studies Paul closely for signs of madness, as it is easy to see that you have been blessed with the words of a Bard :]

Before I could finish my novel, I "had" to walk upon the ground that Arthur walked. It was a mystical experience. Especially touching the Dancing Stones of Stonehenge.

I don't think my frantic pawing at the invisible aerial creatures that torment me is a sign of madness - they really are there. No, really...

Did you go to Glastonbury Tor and Tintagel as well? Could also mention Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh, though that might well be a later addition to the legend - a bit like all the birthplaces of Zeus that one trips over everywhere in Greece.

One a more serious note, I think there are several ways to present the Arthurian legend - mystic, military, romantic - though being a man, I owuldn't know much about that last one :-) It is a dark legend involving conquest, betrayal, rape, incest, murder, magic, the Old Ones and the change from paganism to Christianity with all the concomitant butchery and wholesale adoption of pagan legend that implies.

As I mentioned, the highlight of my trip was walking within the circle of Stonehenge at twilight and touching the stones.

I also stayed in Bath, exploring the Roman ruins, I loved the people of Bath.

Also walked the grounds of Glastonbury, and although I was impressed with the Arthurian aspects of the town, I was very un-impressed with the city's youth (they sat about the streets and were loud, obnoxious and just downright rude to everyone who passed by. Which, needless to say, took something away from the mystical experience).

And then...there was Cornwall. The moment I stepped foot upon Tintagel's soil, I knew that I had returned home. I fell, madly in love with the Cornish countryside and its people.

I agree with you that the Arthurian Legends are filled with more than romance, knights and chivalry. It was a very, very historically violent time, a very controversial time.

Hi all, I was still thinking about good sources texts of Arthurian legend. I added a handful of early texts I have read to the bookshelf. In order to sort them out, I added some new bookshelf categories. If any of you want to add your essential suggestions into the new categories, please do -- because these are awesome lists you are posting here.

I also added one category of Basic Arthurian -- there was a question in the other thread about books that provide the basic outline of the legends. Into this I placed Tennyson's Idylls and also two YA books that are too fabulous to be "labeled" YA or anything else (by Sutcliff and McCaughrean).

So, take a look, tweak my categories, add to, enjoy, etc. And please list any specific editions on all the good suggestions above.

Hi Sarah,

You have a great start to your Arthurian library :]

I need to update mine. I will try to do that today. It is always fun to compare Arthurian reading lists :]

Hey Dee, I love scrolling down my lists too. I am sure I will come up with more questions when I look back at some of my previous lists of "to read."

I read a few pages in Anne Eliot Crompton's Pericval's Angel. Interesting so far. It is so far about the "fey" of Apple Island and the forest of Avalon. Are you familiar with her writing? I dont think I have read any of her books before.

Sarah said earlier in this thread, "These tales started out as tales told to and belonging to the people (us). The strengths of the legends gave them a staying power and made them part of our culture. So I believe the modern writers who tell the tales with all the different interpretations are important in carrying the legend into the future."

I'd like to second that. Stories like this speak to universal themes, and because they've been around so long and retold so many times, valid and valuable retellings can, should, and do continue. Many of the new interpretations such as Mary Stewart and T.H. White respect the core elements but add a vibrant new perspective, just as medieval French writers did in the 14th century and Irish, Welsh, and other authors did throughout the centuries. Others retell the story from the perspective of a minor character, or enhance our understanding of one of the major characters, or offer an alternative understanding of character, events, or motivations, all of which I think are excellent additions to the oeuvre.

If I had to pick modern ones to add to the canon I'd certainly include Stewart and maybe Guy Gavriel Kay's take on it in the Fionavar Tapestry, among others. And of course with a story cycle that has such hazy and multitudinous origins, it's hard to pinpoint "canon" with any degree of certainty, which makes it that much easier to add more titles to the list :)

Sarah said earlier in this thread, "These tales started out as tales told to and belonging to the people (us). The strengths of the legends gave them a staying power and made them part of our culture. So I believe the modern writers who tell the tales with all the different interpretations are important in carrying the legend into the future."

I'd like to second that. Stories like this speak to universal themes, and because they've been around so long and retold so many times, valid and valuable retellings can, should, and do continue. Many of the new interpretations such as Mary Stewart and T.H. White respect the core elements but add a vibrant new perspective, just as medieval French writers did in the 14th century and Irish, Welsh, and other authors did throughout the centuries. Others retell the story from the perspective of a minor character, or enhance our understanding of one of the major characters, or offer an alternative understanding of character, events, or motivations, all of which I think are excellent additions to the oeuvre.

If I had to pick modern ones to add to the canon I'd certainly include Stewart and maybe Guy Gavriel Kay's take on it in the Fionavar Tapestry, among others. And of course with a story cycle that has such hazy and multitudinous origins, it's hard to pinpoint "canon" with any degree of certainty, which makes it that much easier to add more titles to the list :)

Great question! The earliest I've been able to come across is Nennius' History of Britain, but Gildas the Wise (~late 5th/early 6th century) does have a tantalizing line about the battle of Mount Badon, where the Britons under some amazing leader fought off the Saxons one last time. But he doesn't give a name...
As far as modern works, T.H. White is totally amazing, but I think more "scholarly" fiction like Jack Whyte's "Arthur was a leftover Roman" series and Bernard Cornwell's "Arthur was a dark-age chieftan" series will probably be more influential.

I am obsessed with The Once and Future King - so much so that I used it, as well as Chretien de Troye - in my thesis! I can read and re-read and re-read that book and always have "AHA!" moments! :)

In view of the announcement that Tolkien's long lost early poem about Arthur is due to be published next year (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/...), is this likely to be a canonical work in the same vein as Tennyson's Idylls of the King?

According to the Guardian, these are the "new" poem's opening lines:

"Arthur eastward in arms purposed
his war to wage on the wild marches,
over seas sailing to Saxon lands,
from the Roman realm ruin defending.
Thus the tides of time to turn backward
and the heathen to humble, his hope urged him,
that with harrying ships they should hunt no more
on the shining shores and shallow waters
of South Britain, booty seeking."

!!!!!!!

I didn't hear that about Tolkien's Arthurian poem. Omg. Please let it be available in time for me to write my thesis...

(It may not be, objectively, that good, but the idea of Tolkien, who wanted to create a 'mythology for England', dealing with the Matter of Britain... I swore sight unseen that I could write my thesis on it.)

Nikki wrote: "!!!!!!!

I didn't hear that about Tolkien's Arthurian poem. Omg. Please let it be available in time for me to write my thesis...

Do hope it's published in time for you to start your thesis (next May). And that you'll put up a review of it as well!

(By the way, enjoying your reviews, particularly the ones I've read too, and applaud your habit of commenting/reviewing each book you rate--a habit I intended to adopt but not achieving it as well as I'd like.)

Edited to exclude a dreaded stray grocer's apostrophe...

I certainly will review it, whether I can convince my university to say yes to a thesis on it or not. *grin*

(Thank you!)