BZRK discussion

I know the twins are beyond evil, and BZRK claims to better be morally then Nexus Humanus by removing the wiring and what not...but they ended up killing a lot of people.

And what is better? Freedom or happiness?

Yeah I had the same question about whether they were the actual good guys too. They didn't seem to mind killing people who got in the way either. Then again BZRK isn't trying to control the world's leaders and force their idea of happiness.

I think freedom is better even if your personal choices don't lead to 'happiness' they're still yours and then you still have a choice to change or correct them.

Good point

i don't think they are really the good guys but in the real world it's hardly ever that someone's only good.

doesn't Noah/Keats say: "You can't be happy without freedom."?

Hana wrote: "doesn't Noah/Keats say: "You can't be happy without freedom."?"

Is it true though? I am not sure if he is right

i don't know. maybe it's different for different people. i don't think i could be really happy if i couldn't make my own decisions and if i wasn't free.

I'm not sure. Wehn I'm confused about what I'm doing, I get really frustrated and upset. But when the govt limits our freedoms, I don't like that either

yeah, sometimes for me it's better if i don't have so many choices because i always ask myself if i've done the right thing, but i couldn't stand if somebody could always tell me what i have to do.

Right. Humm such philosphical disscussion

maybe i took your question a bit too seriously....

No, it's a serious question. I think we're really supposed to read into it.

that's true. i think this gives the book a deeper meaning, so it's not just an action novel.

Yeah that's what made me love it so much, it has awesome action, but I debated with myself for ever about the ethics of both sides

i have to admit that i didn't thought about it for this long (i had much to do when i read it and i read it mainly in school) and your question let me think quite a bit. thank you :). there isn't really a right side.

Your welcome haha. You're right, once you get to thinking about it, there isn't really a right side

:). right, but i think i like the idea of bzrk better than the one of the twins.

Me too, they're cooler

yeah, and these nanos really belong to you and aren't some machine.

True

Yeah, the "heroes" aren't really that much different than the "villains," are they? But I think that was part of the point, and a big part of Vincent's inner conflict ("I am not Scipio"), as well as Plath's & Keats' (esp. at the end when they are deciding what to do with the Twins) -- they have to do some pretty terrible things, but they believe they're doing it for the right reasons.

When you look at the AFGC, one of the big differences I see is in the motivation of the twitchers. Bug Man wants power and recognition, plain and simple. Though we don't get the backstories (yet?) of all the BZRK twitchers, they seem to all have something more that they're fighting for besides just power and glory.

the bzrk seem nicer but in the end their methods are pretty much the same. vincent kills this woman without much scruple.

Wendy wrote: "Yeah, the "heroes" aren't really that much different than the "villains," are they? But I think that was part of the point, and a big part of Vincent's inner conflict ("I am not Scipio"), as well ..."

Exactly!

I think it's just one big 'ends justify the means' argument. The means for both sides are effectively identical. The crux of which is considered 'the good guys' will depend on which of the 'ends' you find to be correct. The 'can you be happy without being free?' debate is a common one that has been explored long before this book came out, but the generally held view is that the right to freedom of choice trumps the notion of organised 'happiness' where people are controlled. As such most would consider BZRK to be the good guys not because of what they do, but why they do it.

Very true!

maybe there are people who even like the idea of the twins better. i mean they want happiness for all people (and power for themselves) but they sacrifice freedom for it.

I mean freedom isn't always good. People aren't always good then things thing downhill (Lord of the Files, anyone?) but the twins mostly want power for themselves

freedom always gives room for bad things.
sometimes i pity the twins. their life was not easy and people weren't nice to them. their only way to get accepted was power to frighten others.

Yeah I totally understand where they are coming from. They want to show the world that they can overcome and that aren't just defined by their strange looks. I almost admire them for it. If they hadn't been quite so sadistic i would've liked them

and they could have gotten power on a more peaceful way

Whether BZRK is good or bad is all about perspective and and your priorities. Both sides are fighting for what they feel is most important. For BZRK, it's maintaining freedom at all costs. Even if it means the death of others. For the Twins, it's preservation of the human race. Even if that means enslavement and dictatorship.

Basically the idea of "good and evil" is relative.

And as for happiness or freedom, I feel that the quote rings true. "You can't be happy without freedom."

Interesting thoughts