Titanic History discussion

If you had to put blame on one person for the Titanic's sinking who would it be?

I chose Nature. In a documentary I watched, they tested many things and studied lots and in the end, they blamed Nature, and I agree with them. Titanic was very much in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I don't blame Captain Smith, because going full speed in an ice field on a clear nigth was considered safe. If that was something that was common, then you can't blame that specific person, because it's possible another would do the same.
They recreated Titanic hitting the iceberg with technology, and that showed that if the Titanic had been going about ten notches slower, it wouldn't have hit the iceberg.
They explained what the weather was like and how it made the iceberg 'invisible'. As well as the cold air making the Californian seem much closer than it actually was. Because the Californian had seemed so close, no one panicked because they believed it would come and help them.
I don't remember everything, but it was very interesting.

I'm divided on this one. On one hand it truly is a real life theme of Man vs. Nature; on the other hand you have to admit that so many things went wrong that night; lost binoculars, the unusually flat calm of the sea, new moon, and like you said the increased speeds through the ice field and how not all the ice warnings reached Captain Smith. When you add all that up it's downright eerie! Like Fate itself had Titanic in a stronghold, determined that ship would sink.

Gosh, I really can't decide Anna! Is it Nature or is it Fate that sank Titanic? (Flip-flop, flip-flop go my thoughts)

Okay I've thought it over. Too much weirdness that night. I have to go with Fate.

Margaret wrote: "Okay I've thought it over. Too much weirdness that night. I have to go with Fate."

I'd say it's probably a bit of both... You are definitely right that, that night was extremely eerie because of all the things that went wrong.

Yeah, Fate working through Nature, definitely. Combined with "human error" that was 100% to blame for all of those ice warnings not reaching the captain. I need to look up what happened to the binoculars. I mean, where were they last seen and did anyone ever own up to taking them?? (I swear, it almost feels like those things fell into a black hole, LOL)

Margaret wrote: "Yeah, Fate working through Nature, definitely. Combined with "human error" that was 100% to blame for all of those ice warnings not reaching the captain. I need to look up what happened to the bino..."

I read an article on the internet that said a key was found, which was the key to the binocular box. Someone working on the Titanic was fired the day before Titanic's sailing and he forgot he had the key to the binocular box, where the binoculars were.

NO WAY!!! Seriously??

Margaret wrote: "NO WAY!!! Seriously??"

Yeah, I read it awhile ago. I don't remember the website sadly, but I remember that clearly... They even showed a picture of the key.

So many odd "coincidences". No way a work of fiction could ever pull this off!

Margaret wrote: "So many odd "coincidences". No way a work of fiction could ever pull this off!"

Agreed!

I also remember reading about the binocular's. I suppose you could say fate or nature, but certainly human arrogance played a part. No one person was responsible, but the constant attempt by shipping lines to outdo each other, go faster, make bigger and bigger ships, each more luxurious than the last, has to be part of the reason. The sheer arrogance of saying that a ship that size did not need lifeboats, that it was unsinkable - when there had been other maritime disasters, as there will always be car crashes, plane crashes etc was simply unbelieavable. So yes, fate I guess, and also the tragic fact that they ignored the power of nature and felt they could tame the sea.

Something they also talked about in the documentary in which they were studying who was to blame, was why you can't blame Captain Smith.
He did change the route slightly after getting the first ice warnings... Many people always blamed him because, even with the ice warnings, he went faster. It's unknown is J. Bruce Ismay did prompt him, but going full speed in a field of ice was very common then, so it's possible if Smith hadn't been the captain that the other captain would've done the same thing.
Titanic is such a mystery, some things we know might not even be correct, but what we know is what we know.

I'd also like to remind you that I made a poll that closes this Friday... It's on this topic.

Of course, Captain Smith died in the disaster, so I think the press were unwilling to blame him at the time, as he had "done the right thing". The Duff Cooper's and Ismay were easier targets for their scorn. All Captain's took the fastest route, so he was not unusual, I agree. If other ships passed that way safely, why not Titanic, which was so much larger and more impressive?

For actually hitting the berg and sinking? Smith. He was the captain, he had a reputation for 'cracking on', he was borderline-useless during the evacuation.

For insufficient lifeboats and lifeboat "drills" and training that were less than useless? The British Board of Trade. They were using lifeboat capacity calculations based on average GRT from 1890 and felt the sort of drills done in port were adequate. Titanic had MORE lifeboat space than she was legally required to have. You can't pin lack of space or officers being unaware of features (Lightoller didn't know THESE lifeboats could be lowered full from the start-because no one apparently thought that was something the first-later-second officer ought to know...) Plus they and Marconi were the ones who viewed wireless more as a toy than something that ought to be manned 24/7.

Basically, if it hadn't been Titanic, eventually it would have been another ship. The regulations were running too long on "It's always been fine before."

My thoughts exactly, Jennifer.

Jennifer wrote: "For actually hitting the berg and sinking? Smith. He was the captain, he had a reputation for 'cracking on', he was borderline-useless during the evacuation.

For insufficient lifeboats and lifebo..."

What I'd read is that the Marconi officers did manage the marconi 24/7, and that the Californian was the one who did not. The only thing the Titanic's Marconi operators did wrong was saying 'shut up' to another ship warning them about the ice. (That I've heard.

I haven't heard much about what Captain Smith did during the sinking, do you mind explaining a bit more why Captain Smith is to blame? It would help me understand your point of view.

Well I know for starters that he was something of an enigma that night. No one can really place much of his whereabouts between the time Lightoller suggested they start loading women and children into the boats and at the very end people remembered him speaking into his megaphone - or whatever the heck that long cone shaped thing is called - "Every man for himself now" after all the boats were gone and "Be British". It seems to me there's more a question of what DID he do, exctly during the sinking?

Had Captain Smith survived I truly believe the public would have forgotten all about Ismay and put him under a far crueler scrutiny than Ismay could have even imagined.

I've always thought that it was 1st officer Murdoch, 2nd officer Lightoller and 5th officer Lowe who behaved more like captains that night than Smith.

Margaret wrote: "Well I know for starters that he was something of an enigma that night. No one can really place much of his whereabouts between the time Lightoller suggested they start loading women and children i..."

Okay, thank you for answering that question...
Somewhere I read that people thought he was too old, and maybe he was, depending on what you consider "too old".
Also, there are many things that passengers said that may or may not be true. Many said they saw the ship slit in half, while others say it didn't. Maybe Captain Smith did do more and we just don't know it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWhhKJ...

This is a very interesting and short take on Ismay! Only 8 minutes long, worth watching. :)

Interesting link Margaret, thanks for posting it. I read a book a while ago, Titanic Ashes which was really good - about Ismay and his daughter having dinner in a restaurant and being spotted by passengers from Titanic.

As for Captain Smith being considered "too old", I did read it was a way of rewarding him for service, to give him such a prestigious maiden voyage. He was supposedly good with the passengers, which was obviously useful with such high profile people on board. At least he did go to the men manning the Marconi set and tell them to stop and try to save themselves - they may have been afraid to leave their post without an order and one survived. It showed some empathy to remember them.

Margaret wrote: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWhhKJ...

This is a very interesting and short take on Ismay! Only 8 minutes long, worth watching. :)"

It was very interesting, I'm thinking of the possibility of him being ordered of the ship... Maybe, I'll have to think about it more before I can give a full opinion on it.

Glad you guys liked it. :) I don't know about you but in all the documentaries I've always heard that he was basically raised as this spoiled and pampered kid who came of age with a full sense of entitlement. That 8 minute documentary just showed that wasn't entirely true. He never felt like he belonged anywhere! And he couldn't have been too "spoiled and pampered" if his classmates all snubbed him and then came home to a father who believed the school was making him soft.

I've always felt sorry for Ismay. He never lived down Titanic and died a recluse because of it. On Facebook I've liked a few Titanic pages and it just blows my mind how 100 years later people still post some of the nastiest comments about him. Poor guy was punnished enough while he was living! IMO

I read his biography and it was really interesting Margaret. I agree, it was a split second decision to step into that boat and who is to say what they would do in the same situation?

I have to say I feel a bit sorry for him too, I mean, all of what we know about him might be wrong. Maybe passengers didn't like him, so they made up that story, or just saw it wrong and just thought he was sneaking in.

Don't know where to start on this one! As Margaret said, so many things went wrong with Titanic, on the night and before (like the almost-collision with the New York), the whole disaster seems inevitable.

I do feel Captain Smith didn't take the risk of ice seriously enough - he was on his last voyage and the ship was supposedly unsinkable and although he changed the course slightly he didn't slow down. Although, as Anna-Cosette says, slowing down wasn't the norm at that time.

I don't think more lifeboats would have made much difference - there wasn't enough time to get them all launched properly as it was. What would have made a difference was a boat drill, proper training for crew, and proper organisation of his men by Smith.

I also feel sorry for Ismay - his getting into the boat didn't deprive others of a place - the mistake he made was not standing by (and being a hero?) like Andrews and Smith when the ship went down. Can't say I blame him for that myself - everyone wants to live.

Finally (!), I too think Murdoch is underrated - Lightoller gets a lot of good press but Murdoch allowed men into the boats - he was more flexible when it came to filling them up with people, not just women and children.

PS My novel, Ship of Haunts (ebook) will be **FREE** from tomorrow on Amazon. Will post more about that in another thread!

Ship of Haunts: the other Titanic story